Brexit discussion thread IV

sdanseo

What an absolute plethora of disillusioned buffoons.

On the bright side, the decidedly downtrodden Rosslare Europort looks a bit more likely to get a bit of investment.

Spanish Eyes

trellheim wrote: »

its not a rump; 305 people voted to interfere with the White paper before it got negotiated with the EU

True, but the proposed amendments means that EU rejection is inevitable now. The noises coming from EU prior to the Mogglodytes amendments was reasonably positive. Now, I don't think so.

But then again the UK can and will blame the Bullies in the EU for rejecting it, and most on the exit side will lap it up.

Mad stuff no matter what way you look at it.

Enzokk

trellheim wrote: »

its not a rump; 305 people voted to interfere with the White paper before it got negotiated with the EU

Nah, its only 62 or so members that is able to scare the PM into their thinking as she is desperate to keep being the leader. You should subtract that from the 326 votes for the government in parliament. What we do see is that the Conservatives will put party before country. They should be careful though, the GOP in the US was fond of doing this since 2008 and they are at a serious risk of being decimated forever if Trump doesn't save himself. He will take the party with him as they enabled him all the way, the same could happen in the UK if you put your own interest ahead of your voters.

J Mysterio

TM officialy now a lame duck.

devnull

J Mysterio wrote: »

TM officialy now a lame duck.

She'll be out later saying nothing has changed and she just listened to her fellow colleagues and that it's still compatible with what was in the white paper.

Enzokk

Anthracite wrote: »

Labour totally complicit in the looming disaster.

You wanted Labour to vote for a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

murphaph

I hope our government steps up our preparations for no deal because these Westminster politicians are insane. Really uncharted territory now.

listermint

Cancel talks.

Let the pound fall.

Let the electorate deal with them.

They can swim in the pool of dirt of their own making.

We are beyond being too polite with this gutter nonsense. Russia is playing the world for fools and the EU are being polite about the whole thing.

murphaph

Enzokk wrote: »

You wanted Labour to vote for a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

It wasn't a vote on that. NI is already a special case within the UK with phytosanitary checks on various goods ex-GB.

They have now not only hijacked the plane but also killed the pilots.

ArmaniJeanss

Anthracite wrote: »

Labour totally complicit in the looming disaster.

I'd guess they agreed no actual vote on this as there was no prospect of it being rejected - little point in wasting 10 minutes of everyone's time for a 420-180 vote.
So hardly complicit really.

The outcome of the night stood or fell on the amendment which got passed 305-302.

murphaph

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd guess they agreed no actual vote on this as there was no prospect of it being rejected - little point in wasting 10 minutes of everyone's time for a 420-180 vote.
So hardly complicit really.

The outcome of the night stood or fell on the amendment which got passed 305-302.

This parliamentary Labour party will go down in history as aiding and abetting this farce. I blame parliament. It is sovereign. It does not have to go along with this massive act of self harm.

ArmaniJeanss

From the guardian.

14 Tories voted against 36.
Heidi Allen
Guto Bebb
Rochard Benyon
Ken Clarke
Jonathan Djanogly
Domonic Grieve
Stephen Hammond
Phillip Lee
Nicky Morgan
Robert Neill
Mark Pawsey
Antoinette Sandbach
Anna Soubry
Sarah Wollaston

3 Labour (+1 currently suspended) voted with the proposition.
Frank Field
Kate Hoey
Graham Stringer
Kelvin Hopkins (curr susp)

Anthracite

Enzokk wrote: »

You wanted Labour to vote for a border between NI and the rest of the UK?

Yes. I did. Is that strange?

Infini

listermint wrote: »

Cancel talks.

Let the pound fall.

Let the electorate deal with them.

They can swim in the pool of sort of their own making.

We are beyond being too polite with this gutter nonsense. Russia is playing the world for fools and the EU are being polite about the whole thing.

Honestly their stupidity is on a whole different level right now. Think it has to be realistically said that these fools need a serious reality check and the EU could easily dump one on them by saying negotiations will fail under the current conditions and that everyone should expect a hard disorderly Brexit. There's no point in negotiating with idiot's if they're determined to ruin themselves the EU should stand back and let these gobshítes burn themselves to the ground.

Come March 29th the Doom Ron Paul meme's are gonna shoot through the roof again.

trellheim

Now off to the Lords I would say//// yep 318 to 285 off to the Lords and folks lets not forget we have the Trade bill tomorrow so BOHICA applies

Enzokk

murphaph wrote: »

It wasn't a vote on that. NI is already a special case within the UK with phytosanitary checks on various goods ex-GB.

They have now not only hijacked the plane but also killed the pilots.

I know, but did you see the debate about it? The debate was about keeping the UK together and not putting a border between NI and the rest of the UK. By putting it to a vote there was no way any politician was ever going to vote for it when the government was against it. Its about the optics of the vote and how the other side could use it, hence there was no way Labour was going to oppose it once Theresa May indicated she would support it. Had she stood up against it, it would have been opposed but then there is 40 odd letters ready to challenge her as a leader, and while the party may not be for hard Brexit, those letters are enough to burn down the house.

Imreoir2

As I understand it, there is now no posibility of a Brexit deal. Preparation for a no-deal Brexit should now become a national priority.

Spanish Eyes

Three Labour and one former Lab voted with the Government FYI.

Frank Field
Kate Hoey
Kelvin Hopkins (suspended from Labour still I think)
Graham Stringer

Edit, have just seen Armani's post above with the same info.

An Ciarraioch

The seven SF MPs would have tipped the balance.

trellheim

Kate Hoey

The Northern Ireland High Jump Champion and person who called the GFA unsustainable

Dont' believe me ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Hoey

Enzokk

Anthracite wrote: »

Yes. I did. Is that strange?

For our sake I wanted that as well, but the SNP also didn't oppose it either. Why do you think that is?

devnull

According to Sky the Tory rebels who voted against the government were:
Heidi Allen, Guto Bebb (who resigned from government in order to vote against the amendment), Richard Benyon, Ken Clarke, Jonathan Djanogly, Dominic Grieve, Stepehn Hammond, Phillip Lee, Nicky Morgan, Robert Neill, Mark Pawsey, Antoinette Sandbach, Anna Soubry and Sarah Wollaston.

However there were three Labour Brexiteers who voted for all the amendments, without which none of the votes would have passed and the government would have been defeated.

Anthracite

Enzokk wrote: »

For our sake I wanted that as well, but the SNP also didn't oppose it either. Why do you think that is?

I'm going to say 'stupidity and short-termism'.

This is a bit like our bank bailout - if FG had the cojones to vote against it as the lunacy it was, they would have been ridiculed in the short term, but would have won a lot of respect when it all came crashing down. People couldn't say 'they are all the same' - FG could point at how they saw the disaster coming and voted against.

Nody

murphaph wrote: »

I hope our government steps up our preparations for no deal because these Westminster politicians are insane. Really uncharted territory now.

EU sent a memo to all governments after May's white paper was released urging them to step up preparations for a crash out; EU leadership and admin knows full well were things are heading but can't speak of it openly as it would be considered interfering in national politics to do so.

Imreoir2

It seems May thought she chould not get a deal including the backstop through Parliament so has decided to collapse talks instead.

ArmaniJeanss

Vince Cable & Tim Farron not there for the vote apparently.
A few here often have the Lib Dems down as the great hope.

Enzokk

Anthracite wrote: »

I'm going to say 'stupidity and short-termism'.

This is a bit like our bank bailout - if FG had the cojones to vote against it as the lunacy it was, they would have been ridiculed in the short term, but would have won a lot of respect when it all came crashing down. People couldn't say 'they are all the same' - FG could point at how they saw the disaster coming and voted against.

As I said, once the government signaled they were not going to oppose the amendment the hands of all other parties were tied. The optics of the amendment and not supporting it is you are voting to put up a border in the UK. The Conservatives were making a huge deal of keeping the UK together during the debate and preserving the union. It had nothing to do with the GFA and what's best for NI, it was about keeping the UK as one. I agree with you that it is disappointing that Labour didn't oppose it, but they were not going to win that vote as its not the amendment that the rebels would vote with them so it just would have looked like they wanted to break up the UK.

Fair play to the ERG, they have the PM by the throat and will now do what they please.

murphaph

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Vince Cable & Tim Farron not there for the vote apparently.
A few here often have the Lib Dems down as the great hope.

Do they do that vote cancelling thing in Westminster where a pair of opposing voters abstain? If not then it's a dereliction of duty by the few dozen MPs who didn't show this evening.

Enzokk

Imreoir2 wrote: »

It seems May thought she chould not get a deal including the backstop through Parliament so has decided to collapse talks instead.

I think she can get a deal through with cross party support, her problem is that the ERG can challenge her leadership. They cannot change votes, but they can remove her. We saw today what she values more and its her job and not the path of the country she set out a week ago.

lawred2

It's time now to just let these lads talk amongst themselves and get on with hard Brexit preparations.

Their rampant disregard for the destabilisation of Ireland and Europe is shameful.