Brexit discussion thread IV

Water John

Cabinet Ministers of Govn't couldn't do their jobs if there weren't pairings agreed.

Zubeneschamali

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Meanwhile, the euro is edging ever closer to the 90p psychological barrier:

https://xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=EUR&To=GBP

Sliding against the dollar, too.

Imreoir2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1019895579785285633

Christ, that's brutal, the UK white paper is so bad that it does not even merit a response.

EdgeCase

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Christ! That affects me. Would you have a link to that please?

The main this is that you might need to get your qualifications recognised ASAP.

Water John

Basically, the White Paper offer nothing new to respond to. Anyway for any of the EU to stick up their head is only ammo for mad Brexiteer MPs and media.

Professor Moriarty

EdgeCase wrote: »

The main this is that you might need to get your qualifications recognised ASAP.

They have been all along but maybe I need to make sure now. I would know a few people who would have got part or all of their qualifications in the UK. However, I can't see the Irish government all of a sudden deciding that people's qualifications are no longer valid. For instance, that would cause major trouble in medicine.

ambro25

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hurrache wrote: »

The section on Professional Qualifications did catch my eye, might be something as simple as applying for your qualification to continue to be recognised, or being forced to sit a test and the likes.

Christ! That affects me. Would you have a link to that please?

That was already covered in an earlier notice to stakeholders (cross-referenced in today’s notice, see index in Annex at end of pdf).

For several professional (legal) roles I’m aware of, it’s either not do-able (‘properly EU’ role, continuing access to which is contingent on EEA qualification and EEA domiciliation: one or both cease to apply for U.K. residents post-(hard) Brexit) or now too late considering the local recognition regime and the 8 months or so left to get it done (most EU27 national processes I’ve seen take around 2 years, some with annual ‘requalifying’ baby Exams, often in March or September...in the local linguo).

It’s one of the main reasons why I Brexoded.

Professor Moriarty

Phew! From the article:

"RECOGNITIONS OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS RECOGNISED BEFORE THE WITHDRAWAL DATE
The withdrawal of the United Kingdom does not affect decisions on the recognition of professional qualifications obtained in the United Kingdom taken before the withdrawal date on the basis of Directive 2005/36/EC by an EU-27 Member State."

However, as it will affect qualifications going forward, it occurs to me that this may well have a devastating effect on British universities and the business that foreign students bring to the UK. It may well bring more business to Irish Universities as we would be the only English speaking education system whose qualifications are automatically recognised in the EU.

zell12

Leo threatens to blockade the nuclear-armed UK airspace! :eek:

'The situation at the moment is that the United Kingdom is part of the single European sky, and if they leave the EU they are not and that does mean that if there was a no deal hard Brexit next March the planes would not fly and Britain would be an island in many ways, and that is something that they need to think about.
'You can not have your cake and eat it. You can't take back your waters and then expect to use other people's sky.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5969841/May-visits-Irish-border-Dublin-threatens-BLOCK-planes-flying-UK.html

prawnsambo

zell12 wrote: »

Leo threatens to blockade the nuclear-armed UK airspace! :eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5969841/May-visits-Irish-border-Dublin-threatens-BLOCK-planes-flying-UK.html

That's not what your quote says.

Zubeneschamali

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Christ, that's brutal, the UK white paper is so bad that it does not even merit a response.

Yes, they are hoping that if they don't respond publicly and make a fuss it will die quietly behind closed doors.

prawnsambo

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, they are hoping that if they don't respond publicly and make a fuss it will die quietly behind closed doors.

It's already being torn apart in its place of birth. I'd say it's a good bet to ignore it, since it will never actually stay the same for more than ten minutes. :rolleyes:

An Ciarraioch

A one-page summary of the Commission's press release:

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1019893577164484608

judeboy101

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

A one-page summary of the Commission's press release:

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1019893577164484608

Does this mean channel 4 won't be making any more 'escape to the sun'?

Hurrache

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Phew! From the article:

"RECOGNITIONS OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS RECOGNISED BEFORE THE WITHDRAWAL DATE
The withdrawal of the United Kingdom does not affect decisions on the recognition of professional qualifications obtained in the United Kingdom taken before the withdrawal date on the basis of Directive 2005/36/EC by an EU-27 Member State."

Sorry for the heart attack I gave you, I read the main gist but didn't delve deeper into detail

axer

Does anyone know if there has been any more talk on WTO membership for the UK post brexit? From what was previously talked about they are not members except through the EU. Is it guaranteed instant membership?

seamus

When you look at the Daily Mail article above, it's not hard to see how some people can come out with a completely skewed view on what's happening in regards to negotiations, and no real understanding of the nuances of the situation.

Apparently Theresa May is being pro-active and hardworking, "seeking to shift the biggest obstacle to a deal with Brussels", while Ireland engages in "sabre-rattling" and Brussels becomes "increasingly entrenched".

At the end slotting in a "what would happen if we walked away" list of points which basically says, "It'll sting a bit, but it'll be fine".

What makes it most fascinating for me is that no particular statement in the article is wrong per se, it's just said with a very definite agenda and intent.
When you put all of those statements together, it's what the article doesn't say explicitly that has the most impact

First Up

whatever_ wrote: »

Morning Ireland RTE Radio 1 19/07/18

So after two years of huffing, puffing and scaremongering about Brexit, finally the truth is revealed: in the event of the UK leaving the EU without a deal there will be absolutely no change whatsoever at the Irish border.

"Up to 1000" Customs Officials will have to be recruited says Varadkar. But no change at the Irish border.

Which doesn't impress the Sinn Fein Brexit spokesperson , who immediately inflates the number to 2000. He also believes that the "backstop" is designed to expediate east-west trade. Priceless.

Conscious that he might be pouring oil on troubled waters, Varadkar informs us that if Britain takes back it's waters then it will have no access to other peoples skies, and all the planes will be grounded. Thank God ! He's found something else to panic about ! Another petrol bomb lobbed at the British Empire by a disenfranchised teenager !

Meanwhile what about these "up to 1000" customs officials ? Well the top guy at Dublin Port thinks he needs "tens" of extra officials. When pressed by Dobbo - maybe a hundred or so (he can't believe his luck). Dublin Port accounts for more than 80% of Dublin's maritime container imports. Will there be kilometers of British trucks stuck in Dublin Port ? asks Dobbo hopefully. No says the man who actually knows something about this stuff.

What happens to these 1000 Customs Officials if the UK stays in the Customs Union ? Says Rachel (definitely not) English. Another pointless politician points out that the UK is not going to stay in the Customs Union. Nobody points out that Varadkar said "up to 1000" and that they probably haven't been hired yet - if indeed they ever will be.

Well in America at least it's only Trump that flails around in the dark spreading fake news. In Ireland we have the Government, the state broadcaster not to mention all the other clueless politicians and celebrities clogging up RTE with uninformed drivel about Brexit.

Absolutely priceless comedy gold !

You seem to be easily amused but I don't think you listened to this morning's reports very carefully. The man who actually knows about this said the trucks wouldn't be lined up at the port because they would be moved to a holding area while being processed so that other port traffic wouldn't be blocked.

He also talked about the amount of paperwork and electronic processing that could be needed to process the close to a million movements through Irish ports from the UK. That is what most of the extra customs personnel would be needed for.


We don't know yet if they will or won't but don't you think governments should undertake contingency planning?

The "truth" about the border has not been "revealed". Different people have said different things and it is far from clear what will happen. A frictionless border is a no more than a wish and as it stands, this looks less likely than some of the alternatives.

lawred2

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, they are hoping that if they don't respond publicly and make a fuss it will die quietly behind closed doors.

well it's already been so heavily amended as to make it even less workable with the EU so they've probably been proven right on that approach.

ancapailldorcha

seamus wrote: »

When you look at the Daily Mail article above, it's not hard to see how some people can come out with a completely skewed view on what's happening in regards to negotiations, and no real understanding of the nuances of the situation.

Apparently Theresa May is being pro-active and hardworking, "seeking to shift the biggest obstacle to a deal with Brussels", while Ireland engages in "sabre-rattling" and Brussels becomes "increasingly entrenched".

At the end slotting in a "what would happen if we walked away" list of points which basically says, "It'll sting a bit, but it'll be fine".

What makes it most fascinating for me is that no particular statement in the article is wrong per se, it's just said with a very definite agenda and intent.
When you put all of those statements together, it's what the article doesn't say explicitly that has the most impact

Yep. Unfortunately, when it comes to dealings with the EU and consequences of Conservative party policies in the UK much of British press is of about the same quality as Pravda.

The problem is that there's no real competition as so much of the UK's media is concentrated in so few hands and they all seem to want Brexit. The Guardian, Mirror, Independent and the London Evening Standard are too niche compared to the tabloids (though the Mirror is one) while the BBC has been well and truly whipped into parroting the government line.

These oligarchs are fanatically committed to Brexit and they're very thoroughly insulated from any ill effects. It's not just them. John Cleese has recently departed for the Caribbean while Jacob Rees-Mogg has moved his business to Dublin. Awful easy to gamble when you're immune to the effects of losing.

ambro25

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

A one-page summary of the Commission's press release:

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1019893577164484608

I quite like the penultimate bullet point which, in ClearSpeak, basically means “subject to the U.K. not acting the maggot up to March’19, the EU will deign to start talking about an FTA”, with the obvious subtext that if the U.K. does Act the maggot, it may be invited to go whistle awhile instead

Akrasia

devnull wrote: »

Now being reported that the breach of the pairing agreement was not in fact a 'mistake' but may have been a deliberate ploy by the Tory Whips to make sure that they won all of the votes.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chief-whip-julian-smith-told-mps-to-defy-pairing-deals-r5rv59fm3

If that is indeed the case then it is extremely serious since it suggests that on top of all the scandal with vote leave and the Russian interference influencing the referendum, there is now also a lot of unethical things going on in relation to votes in the house.

I think the leavers must be close to being morally bankrupt at this stage.

Waiting for 'the right honourable gentleman' to defend lying and breaking an agreement under long standing tradition of the house.

EdgeCase

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

They have been all along but maybe I need to make sure now. I would know a few people who would have got part or all of their qualifications in the UK. However, I can't see the Irish government all of a sudden deciding that people's qualifications are no longer valid. For instance, that would cause major trouble in medicine.

I would suggest that anyone who has a situation like that start making enquiries now and not wait until professional bodies or other agencies start to contact them. You could end up with backlogs and complications if this is done in a rush and in many cases, it might be as simple as having an Irish registration in place, or getting some piece of paper to show they're recognised.

The bigger issue might be that recognition might not be sufficient, if they're not issued by an EU-recognised body.

I'd be curious how this might work for some professional qualifications in areas like accounting, where the UK qualifications in certain areas are just recognised here but aren't issued here.
Does it mean that Irish bodies will need to re-issue the qualifications ?

In a lot of cases, I would suspect that most people are assuming "it'll be grand" and not making any formal moves, in the expectation that it will be business as usual after March 2019.

Infini

zell12 wrote: »

Leo threatens to blockade the nuclear-armed UK airspace! :eek:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5969841/May-visits-Irish-border-Dublin-threatens-BLOCK-planes-flying-UK.html

Uh careful now its the Daily Fail here! Please take care with those links they're prone to extreme levels of ignorant BS (also publications like them are the cancer that contributed to this mess).

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1019895579785285633

Well I suppose right now the EU doesn't need to do anything beyond making preperations for a Hard Brexit. At this point the UK is realistically screwed if it keeps on this course. I think the only thing that's gonna stop this is a 2nd vote otherwise there's no stopping this mess. No leadership, no opposition, utterly incompetent. I actually had to laugh in some ways, the UK about a century ago when the Dail was brought about would have carcitures of it being a total joke and full of idiocy etc, it's incredibly Ironic that our system today is highly stable despite the current makeup of the Dail and it's the Brit's who have a commons being an utter joke.

Leroy42

EdgeCase wrote: »

I would suggest that anyone who has a situation like that start making enquiries now and not wait until professional bodies or other agencies start to contact them. You could end up with backlogs and complications if this is done in a rush and in many cases, it might be as simple as having an Irish registration in place, or getting some piece of paper to show they're recognised.

The bigger issue might be that recognition might not be sufficient, if they're not issued by an EU-recognised body.

I'd be curious how this might work for some professional qualifications in areas like accounting, where the UK qualifications in certain areas are just recognised here but aren't issued here.

And yet another example of how the government and people in the Uk are totally unprepared for Brexit in any form, but particularly in hard brexit. They simply have not considered what it is they are talking about.

It seems the cry for a hard brexit grows louder each day, it almost seems a rallying cry, William Wallace etc type stuff.

Professor Moriarty

EdgeCase wrote: »

I would suggest that anyone who has a situation like that start making enquiries now and not wait until professional bodies or other agencies start to contact them. You could end up with backlogs and complications if this is done in a rush and in many cases, it might be as simple as having an Irish registration in place, or getting some piece of paper to show they're recognised.

The bigger issue might be that recognition might not be sufficient, if they're not issued by an EU-recognised body.

I'd be curious how this might work for some professional qualifications in areas like accounting, where the UK qualifications in certain areas are just recognised here but aren't issued here.
Does it mean that Irish bodies will need to re-issue the qualifications ?

In a lot of cases, I would suspect that most people are assuming "it'll be grand" and not making any formal moves, in the expectation that it will be business as usual after March 2019.

According to the website, existing qualifications will be recognised. However if you are currently getting a qualification or will be getting one in the future then you would need to check your situation regarding EU recognition.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

Uh its the Daily Fail. Please take care with those links they're prone to extreme levels of ignorant BS (also publications like them are the cancer that contributed to this mess).

I've just read that article and I am speechless, but as you say these are the very kind of publications who have been publishing such stuff for the last 10-20 years who have brainwashed a lot of the population into the UK thinking the way they are doing and voting for a massive act of self harm to their own country.

The Daily Mail likes to call these kind of things punishment and sabre rattling among other things when in reality they are simply the consequences of leaving and unfortunately a lot of people just believe what they read in the newspaper and accept that it is all true rather than seeing the obvious ulterior motive.

Have to admit though, the leavers are already trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility. Apparently everything is rosy in the garden and there are no consequences of leaving and if any bad things happening it's nothing to do with them, because they are punishments, not consequences, so it's nothing to do with them as they're of course, not the same thing.

prawnsambo

Infini wrote: »

Well I suppose right now the EU doesn't need to do anything beyond making preperations for a Hard Brexit. At this point the UK is realistically screwed if it keeps on this course. I think the only thing that's gonna stop this is a 2nd vote otherwise there's no stopping this mess. No leadership, no opposition, utterly incompetent. I actually had to laugh in some ways, the UK about a century ago when the Dail was brought about would have carcitures of it being a total joke and full of idiocy etc, it's incredibly Ironic that our system today is highly stable despite the current makeup of the Dail and it's the Brit's who have a commons being an utter joke.

Look at some of the comments under that tweet. "We can get our lettice [sic] and wine elsewhere". Deluded. :eek:

devnull

prawnsambo wrote: »

Look at some of the comments under that tweet. "We can get our lettice [sic] and wine elsewhere". Deluded. :eek:

Honestly the comments in that article might even be worse than the article itself, I had a look at some of them and they were patronising, naive and people who have no idea of what is actually going on and completely ignorant.

That's a little insight into the minds of the Brexiteers that the likes of the Daily Mail and the Daily Express has been breeding over the last number of years, they're spoon fed the fake news and lap it up.

Akrasia

devnull wrote: »

I've just read that article and I am speechless, but as you say these are the very kind of publications who have been publishing such stuff for the last 10-20 years who have brainwashed a lot of the population into the UK thinking the way they are doing and voting for a massive act of self harm to their own country.

The Daily Mail likes to call these kind of things punishment and sabre rattling among other things when in reality they are simply the consequences of leaving and unfortunately a lot of people just believe what they read in the newspaper and accept that it is all true rather than seeing the obvious ulterior motive.

Have to admit though, the leavers are already trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility. Apparently everything is rosy in the garden and there are no consequences of leaving and if any bad things happening it's nothing to do with them, because they are punishments, not consequences, so it's nothing to do with them as they're of course, not the same thing.

Paul Dacre, the editor of the Daily mail is stepping down in November. Plenty of time for him to promote more of this anti eu propaganda, de-stabalize the UK, the EU and promote more conspiracy theories that take years to weed out of the public psyche

The man will slink off into the sunset before the mess he helped create hits the fan. He'll never be held accountable for his role in manufacturing one of the defining crisis of our generation.