Brexit discussion thread IV

Phoebas

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Their constituents voted for them on the basis of abstentionism; to go against that is to go against their constituents.

This idea needs to be put to bed.

No it doesn't.

This is Sinn Fein 'Cakeism'.
They have an opportunity at an historically important juncture for Northern Ireland to actually make a difference, and they are refusing to step up.

Simply asserting that their people voted for them on the basis of absentionism is shortsighted. We all know that if they decided to use their power on Brexit votes, the same people who defend their policy on absentionism would laud their principled stand on Brexit.

LeinsterDub

trellheim wrote: »

Barnier can only go with whats in front of him. So far its a white paper thats already messed up and its not negotiating guidelines either

Which terrible translation of the out of date white paper are you basing this one?

*sigh* I honestly despair

blanch152

Phoebas wrote: »

No it doesn't.

This is Sinn Fein 'Cakeism'.
They have an opportunity at an historically important juncture for Northern Ireland to actually make a difference, and they are refusing to step up.

Simply asserting that their people voted for them on the basis of absentionism is shortsighted. We all know that if they decided to use their power on Brexit votes, the same people who defend their policy on absentionism would laud their principled stand on Brexit.

The people who voted for Sinn Fein also voted to stay in the EU.

Sinn Fein have a choice. Principles or Real Life.

That they are choosing abstract silly principles over the practical implications for the ordinary people of Northern Ireland says an awful lot about Sinn Fein.

FrancieBrady

Phoebas wrote: »

No it doesn't.

This is Sinn Fein 'Cakeism'.
They have an opportunity at an historically important juncture for Northern Ireland to actually make a difference, and they are refusing to step up.

Simply asserting that their people voted for them on the basis of absentionism is shortsighted. We all know that if they decided to use their power on Brexit votes, the same people who defend their policy on absentionism would laud their principled stand on Brexit.

'historically important juncture' for everyone.

We up here had many 'historically important juncture's and there wasn't a word about SF abstentionism to be honest.

Why don't FG actively pursue a UI, that would solve almost everything for us would it not?

Enzokk

Don't know if this has been posted before.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1020000084287803393

BonnieSituation

Phoebas wrote: »

No it doesn't.

This is Sinn Fein 'Cakeism'.

What? They did and continue to do what they said they woudl do, not take their seats in Westminster? Sounds unicorny alright. :rolleyes:

They have an opportunity at an historically important juncture for Northern Ireland to actually make a difference

,

What difference will they make? Galvanise GB politicians to the other side? Make a mockery of 100 years of their politics and stances?

and they are refusing to step up.

It's not SF that voted for Brexit. It's not SF's job to help out Britain.

Even on a basic level when strip out everything else that makes them taking their seats a non-runner, you have SF's stated main goal as a UI. Brexit potentially brings that closer. Why interfere when the Brits are making a balls of it?

Simply asserting that their people voted for them on the basis of absentionism is shortsighted.

How is it shortsighted? They have had this policy for 100 years. Their constituents WANT this.

We all know that if they decided to use their power on Brexit votes... that their mere presence would galvanise other mainland politicians to be "opposite them" in the lobbies.

[MY EMPHASIS]

the same people who defend their policy on absentionism would laud their principled stand on Brexit.

Who are these people? I'm an avowed mostly Blueshirt of a FitzGerald hue and I completely back their abstentionism. If they backed out of it I would castigate them as would their political rivals as a weakness and to what end?

Also what votes were they exactly going to turn and how is it advantageious for their constituents to do so?

---

Below is the scenario that you wish to play out... how can you be serious?


Sinn Féin: Hi I'm SF. I would like your vote but once you know that I will not take my seat in Westminster as part of a long standing abstentionist platform.

Constituent of SF: Okay SF, I will give you my vote on that basis.

Sinn Féin: Hi I'm SF. I am going to take my seat in Westminster. Pledging allegiance to the Crown which makes no sense as a republican and risk rupturing and toxifying my party in the eyes of my own community that have supported me on the basis that I would NOT take my seat and as a result I lied to my constituents. However I only did it to soften Brexit and to save Britain from making an egregious error that only MYSELF and my other 6 fellow SF MPs can seemingly help with. for some reason. 6 Soz.

Constituent of SF: Da Fuq?

---

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'historically important juncture' for everyone.

We up here had many 'historically important juncture's and there wasn't a word about SF abstentionism to be honest.

Why don't FG actively pursue a UI, that would solve almost everything for us would it not?

How would it? A majority of people in Northern Ireland still favour a union with Britain.

Would you expect FG to lead an invasion? What sort of fantastical situation are you envisaging?

BonnieSituation

Enzokk wrote: »

Don't know if this has been posted before.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1020000084287803393

It was all about yesterday but worth seeing again. She's useless.

Capt'n Midnight

Brussels must be told that the prime minister's blueprint for future UK-EU relations is "the final offer", Commons leader Andrea Leadsom has said.

The UK is hoping the EU will back the proposals so an exit deal can be struck by the autumn, ahead of the UK's official departure from the EU in March.

And for the Nth time denial is a river in Egypt.

EU has always said no cherry picking, four freedoms are indivisible.

The UK can stay in , or pick any one of these deals, maybe with a little ++
But anything more would mean yielding to those who already meet the same EU terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

Politics is the art of the possible. Giving in to the UK isn't possible because of the long term consequences to other EU trade deals, and EU internal relations.





BTW EU now has a data deal with Japan.
The UK still needs that deal. It's important given 80% of their economy is service based.
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/eu-data-transfer-japan

The EU bloc has famously strict data protection laws that forbid firms from storing the personal data of EU citizens on international servers unless a high level of privacy can be guaranteed by the foreign company.

Only 12 countries have an adequate level of privacy. These are: Andorra, Argentina, Canada, Faroe Islands, Guernsey, Israel, Isle of Man, Jersey, New Zealand, Switzerland, Uruguay and the US. Firms in other locations need to rely on complicated legal contracts.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

The people who voted for Sinn Fein also voted to stay in the EU.

Sinn Fein have a choice. Principles or Real Life.

That they are choosing abstract silly principles over the practical implications for the ordinary people of Northern Ireland says an awful lot about Sinn Fein.

Ah blanch come off it. That's twaddle

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

How would it? A majority of people in Northern Ireland still favour a union with Britain.

Would you expect FG to lead an invasion? What sort of fantastical situation are you envisaging?

I think by active he means you know, prepare for it and start to fly those kites.

I dunno, like Enda did...

The Irish Times wrote:

Enda Kenny welcomes EU’s united Ireland agreement

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/enda-kenny-welcomes-eu-s-united-ireland-agreement-1.3066687

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

What sort of fantastical situation are you envisaging?

An Irish government for once proactively looking to end an ongoing problem?

Phoebas

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I dunno, like Enda did...

So, if I'm to understand correctly, you're calling on FG to do what they've done?

Phoebas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

An Irish government for once proactively looking to end an ongoing problem?

How in the world can you with a straight face call on the Irish Government to act proactively while at the same time defending your own party's policy of sitting on their hands.

Imreoir2

https://twitter.com/CStalfordMLA/status/1019672905662246918

The DUP is threathning to cut off our gas supply from the UK over Leo's airspace comments. Unfortunatly for them, we don't get gas from the UK, we supply the UK through those pipes.

Capt'n Midnight

McGiver wrote: »

And Mr Fox has spoken, trying to play a hardball. Right, so if I understand it correctly he threatens that if the EU don't fold the EU will lose $250 billion (according to the IMF) while the UK will lose $282 billion. Smart, he's just forgotten the EU are 27 but UK is 1. A small detail.

Mr Fox.
Fantastic Mr Fox*.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44884830

Ireland's economy could suffer a 4% hit if the UK and the EU fail to reach a deal following Brexit, the International Monetary Fund has said.
...
The IMF's 4% figure is substantially lower than claims by Dr Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, who said yesterday that Ireland's economy could suffer by up to 8% if the EU did not agree a deal with Britain.

Getting your figures wrong by half ?

That 4% needs to be seen in comparison with how our economy is doing. It would be a very large speed bump.
Economic growth for 2017 revised down to 7.2% from 7.8%





Meanwhile in the UK Poundland has gone

Maplin and Toys R Us have both gone into administration.

Other High Street names, including Marks & Spencer, House of Fraser, Carphone Warehouse, New Look and Carpetright, have announced significant store closures.

*Dr Fox

FrancieBrady

Phoebas wrote: »

How in the world can you with a straight face call on the Irish Government to act proactively while at the same time defending your own party's policy of sitting on their hands.

I don't have a party.
And SF have always 'sat on their hands' as you put it but have achieved enough to be the biggest party in the north and are doing alright here.

They are not going to interfere in the running of the UK and then complain about the UK interfering here. If you don't get that, it isn't SF's fault, it has been explained for decades at this stage.

Enzokk

If someone had told SF that if they were to take up their seats in Westminster that in a years time they would be able to help their position on Brexit, I am sure they would have taken it. Seeing as no-one can read the future you cannot apportion too much blame on them in the recent votes, but you have to acknowledge that they could have made a huge difference to the UK position.

As it stands we are seemingly at a crossroads. The UK prime minister cannot articulate how she will square a circle, but she wants us to trust her and hand her the keys to drive the car towards the cliff. Her position has been strengthened by the support of the DUP and the ERG. They will keep her in power and she will do their bidding. I think the news that one more letter has been sent to the 1922 committee is a clear warning to Theresa May. We have your future in our hands if you don't do what we want. On the other side there aren't enough "rebels" to force a vote on her leadership so hard Brexit it is.

Buckle up, its may just get bumpy for a while. Then again imagine knowing there are turbulent times ahead but knowing your economy shrunk in the first quarter this year. It would take some kind of politicians to vote for more pain in that situation.

lawred2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CStalfordMLA/status/1019672905662246918

The DUP is threathning to cut off our gas supply from the UK over Leo's airspace comments. Unfortunatly for them, we don't get gas from the UK, we supply the UK through those pipes.

I presume that has that been pointed out?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

An Irish government for once proactively looking to end an ongoing problem?

Proactively suppress the majority of people in Northern Ireland? Is that what you mean?

If you expect an Irish government to copy what the Provos did with the connivance of Sinn Fein, then you are seriously misguided. We have signed a Treaty that says it is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to decide their future. Why should we break that Treaty and interfere in their domestic politics?

Dyr

What Leo should do is hop in a ministerial merc with Simon tomorrow morning and zip up to Belfast then give a press conference up there around the same time as Theresa. Perhaps find someone up there who's still in the SDLP to give him a tour of the Malone Road. Suggest that Rialtas Na hEireann might have a cabinet meeting in Derry or Newry in the near future

Put some egg on Theresa Mays face over the non-border she wants to enforce.

Dyr

Imreoir2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CStalfordMLA/status/1019672905662246918

The DUP is threathning to cut off our gas supply from the UK over Leo's airspace comments. Unfortunatly for them, we don't get gas from the UK, we supply the UK through those pipes.

They'll be looking for the gas valve with torches when we cut off their electricity.

Imreoir2

Bambi wrote: »

They'll be looking for the gas valve with torches when we cut off their electricity.

Don't give them ideas, please!

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Proactively suppress the majority of people in Northern Ireland? Is that what you mean?

If you expect an Irish government to copy what the Provos did with the connivance of Sinn Fein, then you are seriously misguided. We have signed a Treaty that says it is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to decide their future. Why should we break that Treaty and interfere in their domestic politics?

Leo should be demanding that the people of northern Ireland now get the chance to decide their future. Without doffing his hat to anyone.

EdgeCase

Imreoir2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CStalfordMLA/status/1019672905662246918

The DUP is threathning to cut off our gas supply from the UK over Leo's airspace comments. Unfortunatly for them, we don't get gas from the UK, we supply the UK through those pipes.

It ignores the following facts:

1. Ireland has its own gas supplies from Corrib which could be used exclusively in any emergency situation.
2. The UK gets most of its gas from other countries these days, via pipelines which pass through the EU and EEA.
3. If the UK were to cut an EU member's gas supplies off, or play around with energy it would face SEVERE trade sanctions and would be considered some kind of international pariah like Russia. Is that the route they want to go?
4. The UK is a net importer of French electricity, I'm sure they would be fine with rolling power cuts?
5. The DUP would want to take note that Northern Ireland is heavily dependent on electricity supplies from the Republic and that NIE is a wholly owned subsidiary of ESB which is an Irish state owned company. Not that we would be so petty or ridiculous, but it just shows the interconnectedness of the whole thing.

Phoebas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't have a party.
And SF have always 'sat on their hands' as you put it but have achieved enough to be the biggest party in the north and are doing alright here.

They are not going to interfere in the running of the UK and then complain about the UK interfering here. If you don't get that, it isn't SF's fault, it has been explained for decades at this stage.

It's true that SF are doing ok for themselves, in the sense that they have loads of seats - both in a mothballed Stormont and in a Westminster that they refuse to participate in. That's great for them.

And it's great for them to be able to resist 'interfering' in the running the UK - even though NI is part of the UK.

They can choose to deny their reality (and their staunchest defenders can even choose to deny their party affiliation), but as they do this their criticisms of actual participants sound a bit hollow.

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

I presume that has that been pointed out?

Some good reading in that thread

Nate--IRL--

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Leo should be demanding that the people of northern Ireland now get the chance to decide their future. Without doffing his hat to anyone.

Too soon in my opinion, it'll take a while after the effects of Brexit kick in to maximise the potential of any such call.

Nate

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Leo should be demanding that the people of northern Ireland now get the chance to decide their future. Without doffing his hat to anyone.

Why? Ireland has signed up to the GFA. The GFA sets out clear conditions for the holding of a referendum. Those conditions have not been met. Anyone calling for a referendum now is calling for a breach of the GFA.

No Irish government would be stupid enough to call for a breach of the GFA.

Trasna1

Enzokk wrote: »

If someone had told SF that if they were to take up their seats in Westminster that in a years time they would be able to help their position on Brexit, I am sure they would have taken it. Seeing as no-one can read the future you cannot apportion too much blame on them in the recent votes, but you have to acknowledge that they could have made a huge difference to the UK position.

As it stands we are seemingly at a crossroads. The UK prime minister cannot articulate how she will square a circle, but she wants us to trust her and hand her the keys to drive the car towards the cliff. Her position has been strengthened by the support of the DUP and the ERG. They will keep her in power and she will do their bidding. I think the news that one more letter has been sent to the 1922 committee is a clear warning to Theresa May. We have your future in our hands if you don't do what we want. On the other side there aren't enough "rebels" to force a vote on her leadership so hard Brexit it is.

Buckle up, its may just get bumpy for a while. Then again imagine knowing there are turbulent times ahead but knowing your economy shrunk in the first quarter this year. It would take some kind of politicians to vote for more pain in that situation.

I don't really think that it would have made much difference if they took their seats. Every bit of problematic legislation voted through can be overturned when the final withdrawal treaty is voted on.

The only place SF could make a difference is that if they voted in a confidence motion to collapse the government. That would be very risky for them as they would precipitate an election immediately after abandoning a core principle.