Brexit discussion thread IV

Imreoir2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That's my point. The UK can't have red line issues because nobody is imposing anything on them; they either accept that what they want comes with obligations or they don't get what they want.

That's the EU's red line issue.

So you are saying that the UK does not, and cannot have a set of principles by which to negotiate a deal? Can't say I agree with that to be honest.

laoch na mona

Imreoir2 wrote: »

So you are saying that the UK does not, and cannot have a set of principles by which to negotiate a deal? Can't say I agree with that to be honest.

they are free to accept a no deal if they wish, they chose to leave the onus is on them not the EU

Imreoir2

laoch na mona wrote: »

they are free to accept a no deal if they wish, they chose to leave the onus is on them not the EU

Sure, that is obvious enough. That does not mean that they can't have a set of red lines by which they will negotiate. I'm not sure what is to be gained by telling the UK that they do not have, and are not allowed to have red lines in this negotiation.

Strazdas

Imreoir2 wrote: »

So you are saying that the UK does not, and cannot have a set of principles by which to negotiate a deal? Can't say I agree with that to be honest.

They can of course but what they are proposing is an entirely new form of EU or Single Market "membership" where a country is supposedly outside the EU and Single Market but somehow gets to access the Single Market as if it is still a full member.

Part of the reason for this shambles is there was no actual plan for Brexit. People voted to "leave the EU" with not a word about what would happen next, no agreement with the EU about this and not even the bare outlines of a plan for life outside of the EU.

FreudianSlippers

Imreoir2 wrote: »

So you are saying that the UK does not, and cannot have a set of principles by which to negotiate a deal? Can't say I agree with that to be honest.

They can have a set of principles all they want, but they're the ones pushing for a deal. They can walk away from the table if they don't get what they want, but they can't act as if the EU is imposing something on them.

trellheim

but they can't act as if the EU is imposing something on them.

Hold up there a mo . Yes they can, of course they can, see most Express and Mail headlines ref Brexit "dat nasty EU"


not sure where you are going with that tbh

Imreoir2

Strazdas wrote: »

They can of course

That's all I'm saying.

ambro25

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

One wonders if the idea that the UK keeps putting unworkable positions to the EU (rightfully rejected) is simply a PR stunt to strengthen the resolve for Brexit is all that crazy - i.e. make the EU look like the unreasonable ones to the average voter.

Ok, I’m with you now, and ^that^ I’ll buy.

Although of course, one of your alternatives (the UK either doesn't know what it wants) is still also a real possibility, as the practical result of domestic political infighting allowed to endure for too long.

Both are not mutually exclusive, either: it suits both sides in the U.K. (in the name of self-preservation about the liability for the eventual outcome) to paint the EU as intractable.

Imreoir2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They can have a set of principles all they want, but they're the ones pushing for a deal. They can walk away from the table if they don't get what they want, but they can't act as if the EU is imposing something on them.

I did not say the EU was imposing anything on them. I'm glad that we agree that the UK can have it's red lines.

Zubeneschamali

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They can walk away from the table if they don't get what they want, but they can't act as if the EU is imposing something on them.

Yes, they can. They are hopeless at governing and at negotiating, but they are pretty good at acting as if it is all the EU's fault.

Essentially everything they have done for the past 18 months has been play-acting for the UK press, and the UK press is so useless that they are getting away with it.

trellheim

Essentially everything they have done for the past 18 months has been play-acting for the UK press, and the UK press is so useless that they are getting away with it.

Replace 18 months with 'since 1975' and its more the mark, but I agree !

Water John

A red line, is just that. This far and no further. Not an opening gambit in negotiations.

FreudianSlippers

trellheim wrote: »

Hold up there a mo . Yes they can, of course they can, see most Express and Mail headlines ref Brexit "dat nasty EU"


not sure where you are going with that tbh

I honestly couldn't care less what the average reader of those periodicals thinks of what is happening in the negotiations; I care about what is actually happening.

Pretending that this is, as you point out, "dat nasty EU" and May is holding firm on her "red line" issues is disingenuous and I refuse to buy into and support this frankly horse**** rhetoric.

FreudianSlippers

ambro25 wrote: »

Ok, I’m with you now, and ^that^ I’ll buy.

Although of course, one of your alternatives (the UK either doesn't know what it wants) is still also a real possibility, as the practical result of domestic political infighting allowed to endure for too long.

Both are not mutually exclusive, either: it suits both sides in the U.K. (in the name of self-preservation about the liability for the eventual outcome) to paint the EU as intractable.

I think the UK government absolutely doesn't know what it wants in the broader sense.

What does May actually want? No Brexit;
What does a significant portion of the Tories want? A hard Brexit;
What does the public want? I don't think they actually know.

So perhaps it's less a case of not knowing what they want and more a case of too many diametrically opposed views in the one government.

FreudianSlippers

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, they can. They are hopeless at governing and at negotiating, but they are pretty good at acting as if it is all the EU's fault.

Essentially everything they have done for the past 18 months has been play-acting for the UK press, and the UK press is so useless that they are getting away with it.

Ok - I agree... sure, they can act however they want in terms of optics and red lines, but it's not a reflection of reality and I don't think we should support that nonsense.

trellheim

Pretending that this is, as you point out, "dat nasty EU" and May is holding firm on her "red line" issues is disingenuous and I refuse to buy into and support this frankly horse**** rhetoric.

Sure - I don't buy it either - but that does not change the fact that those media outlets can do, and are, pushing that line

Imreoir2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I honestly couldn't care less what the average reader of those periodicals thinks of what is happening in the negotiations; I care about what is actually happening.

Pretending that this is, as you point out, "dat nasty EU" and May is holding firm on her "red line" issues is disingenuous and I refuse to buy into and support this frankly horse**** rhetoric.

I think its more a case that she is hanging herself with her red lines than holding firm against the "nasty EU".

The UK has failed miserably to come up with a negotiating position that is even remotely acceptable and as such the most likely outcome at this stage is no deal.

ambro25

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Ok - I agree... sure, they can act however they want in terms of optics and red lines, but it's not a reflection of reality and I don't think we should support that nonsense.

There’s a notion that the European Council has cut Theresa May an awful lot of slack since before the Art.50 instrument, to give her some manoeuvring room at home, which I’m inclined to believe.

All the same, I believe that the European Council’s message to the U.K. of last Friday, was effectively that, the end of that ‘support’: “you’ve had 18 months, we’re done entertaining your domestic political cat fight, now s*** or get off the pot”

The fact of the matter is, the clock is all but run, and there isn’t the (consensual and collegial) appetite, unanimously across the EU27, for more of the same past March 2019.

KingNerolives

Maybe we should take the phrase have your cake and eat it, literally. We could setup trade deals on chocolate gateau's. A powerful bargaining chip.

ancapailldorcha

KingNerolives wrote: »

Maybe we should take the phrase have your cake and eat it, literally. We could setup trade deals on chocolate gateau's. A powerful bargaining chip.

Stop posting like this please.

listermint

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The average person on the street in the UK (and Ireland) doesn't understand the EU at any great level of detail - the single market being but one of the elements that most people haven't got a clue about.

One wonders if the idea that the UK keeps putting unworkable positions to the EU (rightfully rejected) is simply a PR stunt to strengthen the resolve for Brexit is all that crazy - i.e. make the EU look like the unreasonable ones to the average voter.

The alternative is that the UK either doesn't know what it wants or doesn't understand the EU themselves?

The average person in ireland sees the EU has having a hand in all sorts of good projects. The see huge blue signs on motorways and infrastructure projects. They see positive messaging. The see reasonable articles about the EU. which is why the consensus when polled a number of times is that the really like the EU and would not dream of exiting right now or in the recent past.


I think is unfair entirely to bundle average irish folks with that of the UK highstreet. There is zero parallels in their views, the consumption of negativity from their media nor the hijacking of EU origin positive stories and directives that their government steal and claim as their own.


polar opposites.

trellheim

Great point : Upthread someone made a similar - UK are being forced to implement an EU directive for extra protection for holidaymakers but instead are spinning it as your government working for you.

FreudianSlippers

listermint wrote: »

The average person in ireland sees the EU has having a hand in all sorts of good projects. The see huge blue signs on motorways and infrastructure projects. They see positive messaging. The see reasonable articles about the EU. which is why the consensus when polled a number of times is that the really like the EU and would not dream of exiting right now or in the recent past.


I think is unfair entirely to bundle average irish folks with that of the UK highstreet. There is zero parallels in their views, the consumption of negativity from their media nor the hijacking of EU origin positive stories and directives that their government steal and claim as their own.


polar opposites.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd make the comment that visual perception of good being done by the EU does not mean that these people understand the EU or its operation. Many people posting on this very forum who have even a good understanding of the EU often get things incredibly wrong - I'm not blaming anyone, it's the EU's own fault for being so technical and opaque in its structure(s).

I'm not saying I know everything - I've had to spend a lot of time with my head in EU laws and dealing with certain aspects of the fundamental aspects of how the EU operates, but I have colleagues who specialise in EU law who would tell you that you'd have to devote your life/career to the EU to fully understand it.

The fundamental problem in Ireland is nowhere near as bad as Britain, but it's not great here either in terms of EU knowledge.

listermint

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd make the comment that visual perception of good being done by the EU does not mean that these people understand the EU or its operation. Many people posting on this very forum who have even a good understanding of the EU often get things incredibly wrong - I'm not blaming anyone, it's the EU's own fault for being so technical and opaque in its structure(s).

I'm not saying I know everything - I've had to spend a lot of time with my head in EU laws and dealing with certain aspects of the fundamental aspects of how the EU operates, but I have colleagues who specialise in EU law who would tell you that you'd have to devote your life/career to the EU to fully understand it.

The fundamental problem in Ireland is nowhere near as bad as Britain, but it's not great here either in terms of EU knowledge.

They don't need to understand it at all.

There is no need.

The just have to see the output of it for what it is. That story is twisted in the uk.

It's no here.

There is no appetite for knowledge of the inner workings of the EU in detail. But they do at least teach it in schools here. At a higher level.

I'm not so sure that's done across the water

Rhineshark

One good thing about the whole Brexit mess is that a lot of ordinary people have learned a hell of a lot about the EU.

I've spent enough time reading British forums to be astonished by the knowledge difference between (roughly) Brexiters and Remainers though. The Brexiters are still arguing stuff that was rubbish two years ago (and still is).

But apparently Trumps tarrifs on German cars is the latest reason why the EU will totally fold any moment now and pour milk, honey and unicorns.

So we're back to the German carmakers again. Far as I can tell the German carmakers wish they'd just shut up about it already.

Trasna1

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The average person on the street in the UK (and Ireland) doesn't understand the EU at any great level of detail - the single market being but one of the elements that most people haven't got a clue about.

One wonders if the idea that the UK keeps putting unworkable positions to the EU (rightfully rejected) is simply a PR stunt to strengthen the resolve for Brexit is all that crazy - i.e. make the EU look like the unreasonable ones to the average voter.

The alternative is that the UK either doesn't know what it wants or doesn't understand the EU themselves?

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Mays cabinet is hopelessly split on Brexit, hence the contradictory statements and the comical red lines. What she's doing I'd she's trying to get a position, any position no matter how ridiculous agreed so as to take the discussion out of the UK and into Europe.

Essentially it's a play for time, not a strategy

An Ciarraioch

Peter Foster dedicates his daily Twitter thread to May's "third way", and essentially concludes it'll be a customs union euphemistically dressed up:

https://mobile.twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1013770421815083008

An Ciarraioch

Meanwhile, the DUP have been to Downing Street - cue Dodds predictably accusing Varadkar of "bullying" the UK.

EdgeCase

listermint wrote: »

The average person in ireland sees the EU has having a hand in all sorts of good projects. The see huge blue signs on motorways and infrastructure projects. They see positive messaging. The see reasonable articles about the EU. which is why the consensus when polled a number of times is that the really like the EU and would not dream of exiting right now or in the recent past.


I think is unfair entirely to bundle average irish folks with that of the UK highstreet. There is zero parallels in their views, the consumption of negativity from their media nor the hijacking of EU origin positive stories and directives that their government steal and claim as their own.


polar opposites.

Actually, in many parts of the UK you'd see plenty of those big blue signs, and these days more than you would in Ireland as there are areas of the UK that considered 'transition' or 'less developed' whereas no part of the Republic of Ireland meets those criteria anymore. Ireland, together with Finland, the Netherlands, Sweden, Luxembourg and Cyprus are the only countries with all of their regions in the 'More developed' category.

In Britain, you'd see quite a few very visible projects in Wales and the Southwest as they're considered underdeveloped regions by the EU and much of the former industrial belt of the North of England is 'transition', as is Northern Ireland

Map: (Wikipedia, but referenced)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_policy_of_the_European_Union#/media/File:European_regional_policy_2014.svg

The one thing that I've noticed in Northern England was that some people seem to see EU funding as "our money being given back to us" or even as humiliating as they have a notion that England should be entirely self-sufficient.

An Ciarraioch

Boris endorses Rees-Mogg:

https://mobile.twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1013826265739157505

McGiver

Gintonious wrote: »

Very rational reading here...not really though.

I mean can you imagine reading this in any other country? I don't think this would be seen in the any tabloid in other countries. I'm not Irish, but this article is clearly offensive. Especially given the fact that Ireland was a UK colony mere 100 years ago, they broke the country and divided into two causing mess which may never be fixed,and never apologised for any of that.

Imreoir2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd make the comment that visual perception of good being done by the EU does not mean that these people understand the EU or its operation. Many people posting on this very forum who have even a good understanding of the EU often get things incredibly wrong - I'm not blaming anyone, it's the EU's own fault for being so technical and opaque in its structure(s).

I'm not saying I know everything - I've had to spend a lot of time with my head in EU laws and dealing with certain aspects of the fundamental aspects of how the EU operates, but I have colleagues who specialise in EU law who would tell you that you'd have to devote your life/career to the EU to fully understand it.

The fundamental problem in Ireland is nowhere near as bad as Britain, but it's not great here either in terms of EU knowledge.

I heard an interesting point about this that is worth repeating. One of the reasons that the average person does not understand the EU, while they would have a reasonably good understanding of the UK or US system is that the EU almost never features as a backdrop in fiction. Take the UK, you have media like The Thick of It, and Yes Minister. In the US you have House of Cards, The West Wing and a hundred more. Some good political drama based in Brussles would be a good way of making the EU a more relatable institution.

flutered

listermint wrote: »

They don't need to understand it at all.

There is no need.

The just have to see the output of it for what it is. That story is twisted in the uk.

It's no here.

There is no appetite for knowledge of the inner workings of the EU in detail. But they do at least teach it in schools here. At a higher level.

I'm not so sure that's done across the water

for instance where in the uk will you see a sign saying any project is/has supported by eu money,

McGiver

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Leave the EU but keep the fundamental institutions of the EU.

I'm sure that will go down a treat with the Brexiteers.

Many of the Brexiteers before the referendum are on record admiring the Norwegian setup, and claiming that Nobody Was Talking About Leaving The Single Market in the event of a Leave vote.

Norwegian option means UK will confirm their current opt-outs, slightly reduce budget contributions, but loses all political influence. Also FTAs only through EFTA (if a bully is allowed to join that club with their track record) so not completely independent. Not so much great deal imho. Better staying in as a half member.

McGiver

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

So, JRM has written another Telegraph article basically calling for a "clean Brexit" at all costs, but it's backfired rather dramatically, with numerous Tory MPs queuing up on Twitter to tell him to shut up:

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1013738296302858240

Meanwhile, leaks on May's "third way" continue, with suggestions it'll be on the softer end of possible options:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/02/may-to-float-third-brexit-customs-model-at-chequers-meeting

No third way. That's Switzerland, too much headache for the EU. And that's a small not so hostile country. Wouldn't work with the UK.

Imreoir2

May ruled out the Norway model for post-brexit relations with the EU in the commons again today. It would not "deliver on the vote of the British people".

flutered

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think its more a case that she is hanging herself with her red lines than holding firm against the "nasty EU".

The UK has failed miserably to come up with a negotiating position that is even remotely acceptable and as such the most likely outcome at this stage is no deal.

because they are playing with the phrase, the eu are punishing us

McGiver

Live in the Commons. This fella is damn right.

18:15
Huw Merriman, a Conservative MP, makes a reference to Conservative infighting, when he asked the PM: " There are 650 different opinions on Brexit across this house, but the only opinion that matters with any authority to deliver for all our constituents is the prime minister's. Would she agree with me that it is time for all of us to get behind her position and give all our constituents the best possible chance of prosperity and a future." The PM says the public voted to leave and want the govt to get on with it "and that's exactly what we are doing".

flutered

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Looking like talks will fall apart after the white paper is published.

funnily enough the white paper is not being published until 12th of july, with trump in london and ni otherwise engaged

flutered

Leroy42 wrote: »

According to the BrexitCast podcast, the EU have stressed that any white paper should be the UK actual position and not be driven based on the domestic audience.

They are fed up with getting these pointless positions, which the EU has already made clear they couldn't accept, and have to go through the dance of reviewing them and the rejecting them.

They want to know what it is the UK actually wants. May has made a number of contrary claims and the EU is non the wiser of what the EU actually wants (apart from everything)

i have read elsewhere that the white paper is being given to each eu counrtys goverment in their own language, in an effort to bypass barnier

Leroy42

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I heard an interesting point about this that is worth repeating. One of the reasons that the average person does not understand the EU, while they would have a reasonably good understanding of the UK or US system is that the EU almost never features as a backdrop in fiction. Take the UK, you have media like The Thick of It, and Yes Minister. In the US you have House of Cards, The West Wing and a hundred more. Some good political drama based in Brussles would be a good way of making the EU a more relatable institution.

Have you never watched "The Crisis"?

http://www.culch.ie/2010/04/25/an-crisis-tg4-series/

flutered

ambro25 wrote: »

Respectfully, please inform yourself here (non-exhaustive example on the topic).

The whole kerfuffle about the negotiations over the past 18 months revolves on these, and their inherent (but absolute) incompatibility with the EU’s founding principles.

This late in the day, the U.K. still expects that the EU will compromise on its founding principles, to accommodate the deal which the U.K. wants.

I don’t think I need to waste any (more) bandwidth on why that is as likely to happen by March 2019, as in a month of Sundays.

the uk think the eu will capitulate, to save the economies of belgium germany and ireland

Leroy42

flutered wrote: »

i have read elsewhere that the white paper is being given to each eu counrtys goverment in their own language, in an effort to bypass barnier

The EU just ratified, in under an hour, the current approach to Brexit, giving the continued go ahead for Barnier to lead the talks.

So what do the UK. They come up with a scheme to go behind his back. Its genius. So instead of negotiating with 1 (hoever tough he may be) they have opted to negotiate with 27?

These are the same people who are going to get the best trade deals across the globe?

ancapailldorcha

flutered wrote: »

the uk think the eu will capitulate, to save the economies of belgium germany and ireland

I don't think so. When I see one of the tabloids spewing words that are ultimately meaningless, it's to maintain the dimming flames of their own crusade. May, Johnson and Co. know what the score is. They're not going to sacrifice that precious Conservative party unity which definitely exists that the country will now pay a steep price for. I suspect that David Cameron was expecting Nick Clegg to win a lot more seats than he ended up with so he'd have a ready-made excuse to ditch the absurd plebiscite. Unfortunately, I do not think that the British electorate is mature enough for voting reform and thus they returned a deeply fractured Conservative party to power with a narrow majority, freed from the Liberal shackles imposed by awful Mr. Clegg.

In the absence of any sort of meaningful opposition, Tories of various stripes are now free to tear each other apart knowing that their leader is caught between a rock and a stupid place. Their desperation for power means that they'll not go too far but this is sticky tape on deep party fissures. The party needs to fall apart so it can reinvent itself as it has done countless times throughout history.

The problem now is that the dragons have all been slain. Labour is just as dysfunctional and deeply divided, Trade Unions are completely toothless, the Liberal Democrats have been confined to the electoral wilderness for the ultimate act of political evil that was tuition fees, the SNP's case for another Indyref is dead in the water while the biggest beast of all, Brussels, the EC and Jean-Claude Juncker are about to be booted from our shores (or something like that).

So we're about to find out how the Conservatives manage without their usual scapegoats. Oh, sure their allies in the press will continue to blame Brussels but I'm not sure that ship will sail for long. The schisms in the party must be resolved if it is to have a future. The same of course applies to Labour but they have the advantage of the galvanising forces of a common nemesis and the possibility to get back into power to patch up their internal chasms for the time being.

One of the greatest tragedies of all is Boris Johnson. Ironically, for a man so obsessed with Winston Churchill, he's made decisions which have forever preventing him for realising his goal (I suspect) of being remembered in the same vein as the man himself. I may have opined that he's a moron. I don't know. I certainly blame him for a lot of problems. I do feel that if he'd put himself behind the Remain side and taken that sort of progressive Conservatism that he could be argued to represent could have tipped the balance in favour of Remain (so could some principles regarding a certain bus it might be argued). He's not so much a moron as a prisoner of his own greed, avarice and venality. He can't see the wood for the trees and is so driven by his own selfishness that he seems to be incapable of thinking rationally and working accordingly with the result being that he's now bolted onto this ride to economic ruin and is uttering things which would have been previously unthinkable for any Tory nevermind a holder of one of the great offices of state.

CelticRambler

Imreoir2 wrote: »

the EU almost never features as a backdrop in fiction. Take the UK, you have media like The Thick of It, and Yes Minister. In the US you have House of Cards, The West Wing and a hundred more. Some good political drama based in Brussles would be a good way of making the EU a more relatable institution.

An interesting observation ... but probably says more about the dysfunctionality of the bipolar political systems in the UK and the US. It'd take a very creative writer to come up with a drama based on consensual governance!

Having had the chance to partipate in an EU parliament open day in Strasbourg a few weeks ago, I think that it would have been useful for the EU to get young Brits to visit either Strasbourg or Brussels at least once during their secondary schooling, to see that there is an alternative to "them and us" politics, and that coalitions are a perfectly reasonable way of running a country. Too late now, obviously.

Regarding the "red lines" discussion above, has this 4th incarnation of the Brexit Thread attracted new interest? Those of us who have been around for a while are naturally very familiar with Barnier's stairway to Brexit*, but it does seem like it's not as widely known as we might have thought. In any case, it definitely seems to be something the Tories haven't yet got their heads around. While the EU has remained steadfast in saying "pick an existing model and get on with it" we now have David Davis saying that this new White Paper will "communicate our ambition for the UK’s future relationship with the EU, in the context of our vision for the UK’s future role in the world." Wasn't that what May's Florence speech was all about?


* for reference:

Trasna1

flutered wrote: »

funnily enough the white paper is not being published until 12th of july, with trump in london and ni otherwise engaged

A good day to bury bad news.

UsedToWait

Trasna1 wrote: »

A good day to bury bad news.

A good day for them'uns to go rioting, if they feel they're being treated differently* to 'the mainland'

(* even if they're actilly being treated better..)

Trasna1

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I heard an interesting point about this that is worth repeating. One of the reasons that the average person does not understand the EU, while they would have a reasonably good understanding of the UK or US system is that the EU almost never features as a backdrop in fiction. Take the UK, you have media like The Thick of It, and Yes Minister. In the US you have House of Cards, The West Wing and a hundred more. Some good political drama based in Brussles would be a good way of making the EU a more relatable institution.

I wouldn't agree, that's just hanging a narrative on the subject. The reality is that the EU system is totally different from all the national legislatures, and with that frame of reference it looks undemocratic - a parliament without an executive. And the executive never had to put itself before the people.

Add in poor coverage of the parliament and then throw the euromyths into the mix, it's easy to ferment distrust.

Infini

trellheim wrote: »

Is Mogglodytes a new term ? I am unaware of it before now, but it has a definite ring to it.

Rhymes with Troglodyte heh.

As for the EU some think it might be better off to keep talking but tbh if the Brit's can't get their act together then they should just call it as soon as possible and say that there's little hope of any realistic agreement given the CURRENT state of affairs and lay clear and plain the only realistic prospect is a Hard Brexit. This should not be a way of threatening (regardless of what the subversive's say) but being clear that they have no choice to prepare their own countries since the Brit's cant even tell them what they're wanting here.

They could still leave the door open by saying if Britain change's it's mind that they'd be willing to allow them to cancel A50 since by that stage all the damage caused would've been all on their side and noone elses. Would be up to the Brit's then to decide if they'll see reason or drive their economy off the cliffs of dover.

trellheim

It's vital that all MPs are able to air their views on Brexit. Whatever your position, I hope we can all agree that @Jacob_Rees_Mogg is a principled and dedicated MP who wants the best for our country.

Boris' twitter.

Boris seems to only have a loose grasp on reality. JRM cannot be gotten to stop airing his views