What's Gone Wrong With Germany?

Harry Palmr

For the first time Germany (defending champions) have gone out of the WC in the group stage - they have finished bottom

Four years ago Die Mannschaft swept all before them and were impressive at the Confed this time last year, the squad is full of famous names who are without question talented so what's gone wrong? Joachim Löw can presumably take most of the blame but if so why has he lost the plot and why can't such a squad play above the managers failings?

CalamariFritti

Complacency. Not working together for the cause. The zip is gone.

artanevilla

It's football, it happens. I don't think it's indicative of any emerging crisis in German football.

Jim Bob Scratcher

No Philipp Lahm

Amirani

Team lacks a bit of balance. No proper strikers.

They've also lost a couple of leaders and a few players have regressed. There is still lots of talent there and lots coming through. They will be fine.

Mr.Nice Guy

Only scored 2 goals in the 3 group games which tells the story. It's all well and good having technical quality and a top-to-bottom passing philosophy but if you can't find a guy to stick the ball in the back of the net then you're going nowhere. They went from having the most successful striker in the tournament's history in Klose to Timo Werner who returned blanks in all three games. I don't think Werner should be the sole scapegoat because he did well out wide in the second half against Sweden but the bottom line is he was there to be a goalscorer and he simply didn't turn up.

CalamariFritti

I don't think its that. It feels like they expected to do it with their perceived 'class' or so. After all they are/were the world champions.
They weren't prepared/able to tear the place up for it. Run and work their hearts out. All on big money contracts, dyed hair, tattoos...the belly is full maybe. Not saying their was discord or it was conscious or deliberate or anything, but it seemed they weren't able to dig as deep and work for each other, run press etc. They looked laboured and slow, no ideas, they didn't tear up a defence once even. Against teams you would have expected them to do that.
Just the way it can go. You try to find it but it just ain't there, its gone. They looked like an over 35s side all the way and they seemed unable to find a different gear.

I didn't expect THAT but in hindsight it would have been better to let the Confed Cup winners play this one. I even said with regards to Sane let it be, Loew knows what he's doing. But maybe it would have been better to have more players who haven't won a WC yet.

Now its inevitable. In 4 years time Kroos will be 32, Oezil 33, Mueller 33, Neuer 36, Khedira 35, Reus 33....

Harry Palmr

The thing with Germany though was that they were supposed to be able to create and score goals by clever play without actually needing a dedicated centre forward (a la Liverpool under Klopp if you will).

CalamariFritti

I'm very disappointed btw. I actually thought we had a chance of defending the title.

I watched them against Spain in a friendly in March and both teams looked the business. It was a fantastic match to watch that ended 1:1 and it looked like Barca v Real. High tempo, high skill, great passing, top stuff. I genuinely thought lovely bring the World Cup on. Three months later its completely gone. How come Spain still seem to have it?

Stephen15

Could German football be going down the drain in the same way that Italian football did. The young players coming through for them are simply nowhere near as good as the ones they are replacing. They've always had a good mix of youth and experience but that seems to no longer be the case.

CalamariFritti

Actually I think the young players are fine. They won the Confed Cup when our 'big shots' went on holiday. They just weren't here.
Not criticising Loew by the way. Just saying there are young players. Its not that bad. Just that particular squad probably has run its course.

Jimbob1977

It's cyclical. They will eventually rise again.

Lack of a natural goalscorer. No more Podolski or Klose.

Thomas Muller out of sorts.

Gotze nowhere to be seen.

Was it Euro 2000 or 2004 where they were chronic as well?

CalamariFritti

We were terrible in the early naughties. We had a lot less then. Somehow we managed with probably our worst squad ever to reach the WC final v. Brazil in 2002. Nearly won it too only for what must have been Olli Kahn's only mistake in a German goal ever.

That would have been almost a travesty and it didn't happen after all, but we knew we were bad. So they changed things around. How talent are scouted and trained etc. More technical more of a quick passing game, attacking. The team/generation we watched toady is what emerged from that change in scouting/training. And yet today they looked exactly like the guys did in 2002. Old and laboured only better on the ball.

But I dont think we need to start another cycle. Like I said above there are decent young players around. The era Loew is probably just coming to an end.

How Soon Is Now

Defending World cup winners curse its happened last few times now.

Shanotheslayer

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The thing with Germany though was that they were supposed to be able to create and score goals by clever play without actually needing a dedicated centre forward (a la Liverpool under Klopp if you will).

Thought that was Spain?

brianregan09

This is a knee jerk thread if ever there was one , if hummels had put away that header they would have been home and hosed , some times these things go for you , look at Argentina last night probably should be out, Brazil could be tonight aswell you never know

It seems like a lot of the middling sides have caught up a bit cos there's an overall lack of top top talent in the game

SEPT 23 1989

Leaving the young player of the year at home was an idiotic decision

callaway92

Harry Palmr wrote: »

For the first time Germany (defending champions) have gone out of the WC in the group stage - they have finished bottom

Four years ago Die Mannschaft swept all before them and were impressive at the Confed this time last year, the squad is full of famous names who are without question talented so what's gone wrong? Joachim Löw can presumably take most of the blame but if so why has he lost the plot and why can't such a squad play above the managers failings?

Wrote the below in a thread before the World Cup saying that lack of leaders kills them.

---- ----

No natural leader doesn’t help.

Last WC they had Lahm, Schweinsteiger. 2 big losses to the team

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107214588&postcount=75

PhlegmyMoses

I think that the top teams have really struggled at this world cup when it comes to teams dug in and sitting back. Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Germany have all struggled against fit, defensively structured sides. They have looked marginally better against sides that want to trade attack for attack. Belgium and England are showing us that an inform out and out goalscorer is huge in these scenarios and the above teams are maybe lacking in those areas a small bit.

CalamariFritti

brianregan09 wrote: »

This is a knee jerk thread if ever there was one , if hummels had put away that header they would have been home and hosed , some times these things go for you , look at Argentina last night probably should be out, Brazil could be tonight aswell you never know

It seems like a lot of the middling sides have caught up a bit cos there's an overall lack of top top talent in the game

If we had somehow stumbled through into the knock-out phase someone with a bit of football and hunger like Croatia would have humbled us. Thank god its over now tbh. That was what they were at. There would not have been some magic ignition or anything.

ERG89

Doesn't help Bayern dominating the Bundesliga as much as they do. No players want to stay at the likes of Schalke or other clubs maybe bar Dortmund & Liepzig.
Doesn't seem to be many good centre backs or midfielders coming through. Weigl and Dahoud but both struggled the last few years. Sule is an ok player but Rudiger who wasn't even better than Fazio at Roma was somehow sold for about the same as Salah was which is absolutely laughable.

CalamariFritti

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Leaving the young player of the year at home was an idiotic decision

I can see why he did it and I wouldn't call it idiotic. Yes he was the PL young player of the year. But he hadn't played a good game for Germany yet and he must have not made an impression in preparation. He was apparently a bit cocky, too, and edged some of the established players. In hindsight exactly what we needed. But for Loew it was between Reus and Sane and Reus missed a few tournaments unluckily and worked his arse off to make this one.

It's probably more a failure to inject more new blood on a larger scale. Like what Brian Cody ruthlessly did for all those years. Bloods the new guys, keeps the old guard on their toes. That kind of thing. Brian Cody would have brought Sane but he wouldn't have left Reus out. He would have left Mueller out instead. Loew wasn't ready to be that ruthless.

I mean look at bloody Boateng. God knows how much he makes every week, dyed grey hair, tattoos, big arse/looked a bit overweight, 500 pairs of runners at home (only repeating what I heard elsewhere on that last bit). Bayern were rumoured to be open to offers before the WC.
The guy wasnt bad and its probably unfair to single him out but I thought what he looked like was a bit symptomatic for the whole team performance. We didn't play one bit hungry. We looked a bit complacent in ourselves.

LeBash

The circus around the 2 players before the tournament probably didnt help and maybe there was a little bit dislike, or anger or whatever in the dressing room.

They walked through the group with 10 wins, good showing at the confederations cup, so it's really not a lost cause rebuilding. I was shocked when I heard the results of the friendlies going into the tournament though.

In terms of tonight there was a lot of brain dead players out there.

Keeper shouldn't have been where he was to lose the ball, he should have been in the box, he's a big lump, not a technically gifted midfielder.

The throw in never should have been sent the keepers way, cause he should know it was a huge risk.

The 2 who stayed back stayed level for quite a bit when 1 should have dropped off knowing they could play an offside and they left Son who has serious pace free to run at them, when in the end he didn't even have to.

There was 3 South Koreans in the box for the corner against 8. That's really shocking stuff.

To me, there was maybe a little bit of arrogance and they are justified being as good as they are, but the last min winner against Sweden probably didn't shake them up enough as they still got the result.

CalamariFritti

If you're really quiet and the wind is right you can just about make out the laughter of the Dutch.

Gbear

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The thing with Germany though was that they were supposed to be able to create and score goals by clever play without actually needing a dedicated centre forward (a la Liverpool under Klopp if you will).

You can't play Kloppball at international level.

Russia ran so much it made people think they were juicing and it was only about par for a Liverpool league performance.

Beyond that, the structure and drilling required to perform that high press effectively isn't possible to achieve in the time given over to internationals.

They also don't have a focus like Firmino, or any pace of any description.

They're a nothing team of brilliant but ill-fitting individuals.

It's interesting seeing how the All Blacks in rugby manage to chain together team after team. They're utterly ruthless with their selections and it doesn't matter if you're the leading try scorer of all time. If you're off your game for a few games, you're dropped on your arse.

I think Germany have the quality to be that ruthless but I don't rate Loew and he's allowed the old guard to get in on past glories, and failed to build a side with balance, which is criminal for the depth of quality available.

blueser

CalamariFritti wrote: »

If you're really quiet and the wind is right you can just about make out the laughter of the Dutch.

To be honest, they don't have much to be cocky about. Sat in front of their tellys back home in
the Netherlands.

Harry Palmr

blueser wrote: »

To be honest, they don't have much to be cocky about. Sat in front of their tellys back home in
the Netherlands.

The Dutch hate the Germans when it comes to sport like few others can hate a neighbour.

Esse85

I blame Angela Merkel

Berserker

They are at a low point in their cycle of players. Have little doubt that they'll bounce back and reach the final of the next Euros or WC.

dfx-

They've just gone stale. Time marching on...when you think of the energetic German side of 2010, it's a shame to see them so dour.

I don't think it's knee jerk either. When was the last entertaining German side...2012? Somewhere between 2012 and 2014 they developed this slow, methodical, 'patient' suffocation style.

Stephen15

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Actually I think the young players are fine. They won the Confed Cup when our 'big shots' went on holiday. They just weren't here.
Not criticising Loew by the way. Just saying there are young players. Its not that bad. Just that particular squad probably has run its course.

No offence but the Confed cup is hardly the pinnacle of world football.

Tom Mann Centuria

They need a longer winter break, and more reserve teams in their lower leagues.

Richard Hillman

I wouldn't be panicking over them. However, not having anything remotely resembling a striker would be a concern. Where's the next one coming from? This is the beauty of international football, they could be waiting 10 years for a striker.

There are consequences to promoting midfield-Defensive horizontal football.

rob316

Same thing happened to Spain, football runs in cycles. They'll have a squad clear out hire a new manager and in 4 years time could rightly be favourites again.
They have allot of young talent just not ready for this stage yet.

rob316

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The thing with Germany though was that they were supposed to be able to create and score goals by clever play without actually needing a dedicated centre forward (a la Liverpool under Klopp if you will).

Klopp doesn't have any German players so don't see how that's relevant. Klopp his filling his squad with the cream of Africa.

Zico !

When you see Ozil getting a start you know they are struggling .Useless and horrible attitute lazy

Cookiemunster

Zico ! wrote: »

When you see Ozil getting a start you know they are struggling .Useless and horrible attitute lazy

German international player of the year 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015 & 2016. Up until this tournament he's been putting it in for Germany.

Harry Palmr

rob316 wrote: »

Klopp doesn't have any German players so don't see how that's relevant. Klopp his filling his squad with the cream of Africa.

Well done for missing the point entirely - Klopp's squad is from all over the place and they play a certain tactical style. That can be done with any national team as it can be with any club side if you choose to.

Btw not all Africans are the same and play the same.

rob316

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well done for missing the point entirely - Klopp's squad is from all over the place and they play a certain tactical style. That can be done with any national team as it can be with any club side if you choose to.

Btw not all Africans are the same and play the same.

Don't think you could play Klopp's style with Germany, there just isn't enough hours you can put in on the training ground and they don't have a midfield to do that level of pressing.

SlickRic

Liam Brady, kinda shockingly, put one side of it best after they beat Sweden.

He didn't trust their front players to score. and that's how it proved.

Yes, they were lethargic. But that's the thing. They've been lethargic before, but Klose would grab a goal, or Muller would grab a goal, and it would inevitably be fine.

not this time.

but the other side of it, and this is the issue with the style of football they play, and the style of football that won Spain the World Cup, is that it doesn't actually score that many goals unless you have a Messi and/or Villa up front, or a Muller and/or Klose up front. So you're actually really reliant on your defence. Spain, the much vaunted champions of 2010, scored a pitiful amount of goals, winning nearly every game 1-0. their defence didn't make mistakes, and their midfield kept the ball supremely with Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets.

the Mexico game for Germany was a farce in terms of the lack of control.

if you insist on playing a slow paced, methodical, death by a thousands paper cuts style, you either have to have a thrust in attack to change the pace up when needed, or someone who can reliably score 1 in 2 chances, or you keep the back door very much shut.

Germany did neither.

Kiith

My German cousin blames Lowe pretty much exclusively. Says he picked the wrong players, and wasn't able to get them playing well. Can't really argue with that.

Zico !

Lost the hunger after winning the last one -players needed a new voice to motivate them,went stale .
Its why Zidane left madrid he knows this sh1t

Zico !

Cookiemunster wrote: »

German international player of the year 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015 & 2016. Up until this tournament he's been putting it in for Germany.

Then in 2017 he realised he wasnt German and downed tools

Lukker-

Ozil is a total scapegoat. He was far from their worst player. He created more clear cut chances than anyone on the team.

HandsomeBob

I do feel it's a case of the group becoming fractured going into the finals. When you possess that much class within the ranks it goes beyond cycles ending or whatever.

It's concerning to me tbh from the point of view that increasingly, politics seems to be creeping into the game and effecting teams.

French squad another one that seems to have a problem with this.

titan18

Not really sure why people are saying the young players aren't coming through. I mean Werner, Kimmich, Sane, Brandt, Goretzka, Sule, Weigl, Tah, Gnabry, Havertz, Henrichs etc. That's a lot of talent, and that's ignoring Kroos, Gundogan, Rudiger, Draxler, Can, Gotze and a few others who definitely have another WC or two in them.

Loads of talent there. Low picked the wrong squad tbh. Several players there who weren't in form and were just picked cos they were experienced and there 4 years ago, and he kept faith in them.