Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

Jump_In_Jack

troyzer wrote: »

How would it pay for itself? Nobody is going to watch it on TV anyway.

It's like the Division 2 and Division 3 six nations competitions.
Officially Div 2 is called the Rugby Europe Championship,
And Div 3 is called the Rugby Europe Trophy,
I've never seen TV coverage of that and no promotion to the six nations championship either, but how does it pay for itself?

A Pro14 Division 2 would be good for developing a club team each from Georgia, Russia, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Romania, Portugal, along with a a few 'B' teams from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy.
A 10-12 team league would be good for the sport.

However, without World Rugby helping finance it, or a generous donor, it could never go ahead, there are too many miles to travel to make it pay for itself otherwise, the attendances wouldn't be enough. Maybe it could garner a small amount of TV revenue to sustain it.

Squidgy Black

A division 2 pro14 with Irish A teams would be a nightmare for the provinces, and for AIL clubs. Having teams travel further than the UK adds a lot of logistics, costs, and also takes players out of the first team more often. And it'd mean that academy players will pretty much never be available to the AIL clubs.

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

The NFL doesn't have a regional sense like Super Rugby does. It doesn't have the equivalent of South Africa or Australian teams. The divisions and conferences are largely arbitrary.

Eh? There are a couple of teams like the Cowboys and Colts that play in divisions which don't really suit their geographic location owing to operational reasons but the vast majority of teams and the divisions are broken down by their location.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

Eh? There are a couple of teams like the Cowboys and Colts that play in divisions which don't really suit their geographic location owing to operational reasons but the vast majority of teams and the divisions are broken down by their location.

Not really. The AFC East for example should be changed to AFC North East and incorporate one of the current AFC North teams, maybe the Browns. In return, the AFC North should get the Colts and the Dolphins put in the AFC South.

There are loads of examples of oddities in the conference and division setup.

Jump_In_Jack

Squidgy Black wrote: »

A division 2 pro14 with Irish A teams would be a nightmare for the provinces, and for AIL clubs. Having teams travel further than the UK adds a lot of logistics, costs, and also takes players out of the first team more often. And it'd mean that academy players will pretty much never be available to the AIL clubs.

If there were an Irish Team made up of players that aren't involved with the 4 provinces, such as a "Meath" team (fifth province), it could be useful.
Gives guys a chance to work their way back into a provincial setup, hopefully playing a higher level than AIL.

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

Not really. The AFC East for example should be changed to AFC North East and incorporate one of the current AFC North teams, maybe the Browns. In return, the AFC North should get the Colts and the Dolphins put in the AFC South.

There are loads of examples of oddities in the conference and division setup.

As I said, there are a couple of teams from the 32 who don't really match their division but for the vast majority, they adhere to geography. The AFC East teams, including the Dolphins, are all based very much in the east. Just because the Dolphins are in a southern state, doesn't change the fact they're on the east coast also.

The teams don't have to be based as close as possible to one another to satisfy their division description. They're certainly not largely arbitrary.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

As I said, there are a couple of teams from the 32 who don't really match their division but for the vast majority, they adhere to geography. The AFC East teams, including the Dolphins, are all based very much in the east. Just because the Dolphins are in a southern state, doesn't change the fact they're on the east coast also.

The teams don't have to be based as close as possible to one another to satisfy their division description. They're certainly not largely arbitrary.

So why are the Ravens not in the AFC east? Baltimore is on the east coast.

It's arbitrary. There's no reason why Carolina are in the NFC South rather than the NFC East. And there's no reason why it's the NFC South and not the AFC South or AFC East.

It's arbitrary. Certainly far, far, far more arbitrary than Super Rugby which is divided along national lines.

Jump_In_Jack

For the current Pro14 to expand to add 2 more SA teams,
The 4 conference model where Ire/Wal/SA/Scot&Ita each have 4 teams, play every team once plus inter-pro's would be fine.
Connacht would be worse off as they would have to compete with better teams in their conference than say Edinburgh or Ospreys would, but at the end of the day, it shouldn't be the deciding factor in making the playoffs, and if not in the top 6 teams wouldn't generally be contender for the title, but with regards to the Euro qualification, that could go back to system of having a playoff between the 4th place teams excluding the SA teams.
Edit - apparently there is still a playoff, thought there was to be a change this season.

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

So why are the Ravens not in the AFC east? Baltimore is on the east coast.

It's arbitrary. There's no reason why Carolina are in the NFC South rather than the NFC East. And there's no reason why it's the NFC South and not the AFC South or AFC East.

It's arbitrary. Certainly far, far, far more arbitrary than Super Rugby which is divided along national lines.

Because Carolina is a southern state and Maryland is an eastern state?!

Arbitrary...you keep using that word....

PMC83

Teams like the Sharks or Bulls would be more then welcome, two decent sides. Two currie cup teams though? Don't see the point.

Conferences can be tricky to get right but I still thing a Pro 16 could work.

Travel was obviously and issue for the Super teams, but so was the time difference. If fans can't travel to see a game they will want to see it on tv, which isn't much use to you of your a SA franchise fan watching wanting to watch your teams away in Oz/Nz as they could be playing on your Friday morning.

This is an issue we wouldn't really face- games would be an hour or two later. earlier but very watchable.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

Because Carolina is a southern state and Maryland is an eastern state?!

Arbitrary...you keep using that word....

Right but you said Florida is a southern state but the Dolphins belong in the east coast?

Why?

c.p.w.g.w

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not really as it would just lose money. Would Georgians, germans enter it with no chance of promotion as none of pro14 sides will have anything to do with it if there is relegation as it would bankrupt them not playing pro14 for a season

Agreed, but if world rugby want the game to grow, something like a development league could help. The countries I mentioned having 1 pro team could help the development of the game in those countries. But it boils down to money. And getting sponsorship and TV money certainly would prove difficult

The Lost Sheep

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

It's like the Division 2 and Division 3 six nations competitions.
Officially Div 2 is called the Rugby Europe Championship,
And Div 3 is called the Rugby Europe Trophy,
I've never seen TV coverage of that and no promotion to the six nations championship either, but how does it pay for itself?

A Pro14 Division 2 would be good for developing a club team each from Georgia, Russia, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Romania, Portugal, along with a a few 'B' teams from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy.
A 10-12 team league would be good for the sport.

However, without World Rugby helping finance it, or a generous donor, it could never go ahead, there are too many miles to travel to make it pay for itself otherwise, the attendances wouldn't be enough. Maybe it could garner a small amount of TV revenue to sustain it.

Its not like the international game though. Pro14 division 2 needs promotion/relegation to really work and that cant happen as none of the unions currently in the league will want to lose a team for a year from the top division and what team will enter a league with no promotion? There isnt much chance of tv revenue being high enough to sustain it. Bar when Georgia plays Russia and the odd time Romania attendances at international level arent high enough so club/regional teams?
And B teams from the sides already in the pro14? They wouldnt attract crowds anywhere. Costs would be extremely high.

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

If there were an Irish Team made up of players that aren't involved with the 4 provinces, such as a "Meath" team (fifth province), it could be useful.
Gives guys a chance to work their way back into a provincial setup, hopefully playing a higher level than AIL.

And where are costs for that from? Where do they train/base themselves?

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

Right but you said Florida is a southern state but the Dolphins belong in the east coast?

Why?

You know a place can be in the south-east, right?

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

You know a place can be in the south-east, right?

Like Carolina?

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

Like Carolina?

Yes?!

I'm baffled at this point as to how this is an issue and how you can consider this arbitrary so I'll leave it there.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

As I said, there are a couple of teams from the 32 who don't really match their division but for the vast majority, they adhere to geography. The AFC East teams, including the Dolphins, are all based very much in the east. Just because the Dolphins are in a southern state, doesn't change the fact they're on the east coast also.

The teams don't have to be based as close as possible to one another to satisfy their division description. They're certainly not largely arbitrary.

troyzer wrote: »

So why are the Ravens not in the AFC east? Baltimore is on the east coast.

It's arbitrary. There's no reason why Carolina are in the NFC South rather than the NFC East. And there's no reason why it's the NFC South and not the AFC South or AFC East.

It's arbitrary. Certainly far, far, far more arbitrary than Super Rugby which is divided along national lines.

Buer wrote: »

Because Carolina is a southern state and Maryland is an eastern state?!

Arbitrary...you keep using that word....

You see the problem here?

According to your logic, it makes sense that the Dolphins are in the AFC east because even though they're in a southern state, Miami is an east coast city.

But your same logic doesn't seem to apply to the Carolinas which are also southern states but also on the east coast. So they belong in the South?

Why do the Panthers belong in the South and the Dolphins in the east and not vice versa? They're exactly the same.

It's arbitrary. Even more so in the case of the Panthers because they're a 90s expansion team and could have been put anywhere.

thomond2006

NFL talk in a rugby thread. Molloy will blow up.

So please continue!

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/scarlets_rugby/status/1069516352740892673?s=19

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/scarlets_rugby/status/1069516352740892673?s=19

With the talent still at Scarlets there is no reason why they shouldn't win mooar trophies.

jacothelad

Having watched the young guns of Leinster backscuttle, roger and humiliate Ospreys and Dragons without the aid of lubricant, you have to wonder how all the stars of tomorrow will get the exposure they need to get the most out of their talent. There are more and more high quality players emerging from the systems below the Academy.The seemingly bounteous flow of this talent is exciting for the future and invigorating for the present.



Of course we are conditioned to be loyal to our provinces and think of them as we did when they were amateur. It is ingrained and is the foundation of our pro game. We at Ulster have looked with concern as year after year the identity of the team as being founded solidly in the 9 counties is eroded further and further by non-Ulster born players. Last Saturday only 6 of the 23 were from Ulster. 17 'outsiders' made the core of the team. 8 came directly or indirectly from Leinster. It isn't always like this but Moore, O'Connor, Murphy, Reidy, Coetzee, Ludik and Cooney are guaranteed starters - unless the coach finds Kiss's Ouija Board of selection or McLaughlins chicken entrails in which case all bets are off.



Some, like O'Connor, Timoney, O'Sullivan and Shahanahanhanahan (:D) and others have been here for years via the Academy. O'Connor is frequently our captain and is a very fine player without having the talents or physical presence to ever be an international.



They all make contributions in different ways and with different levels of ability. Timoney is the fastest back-row Irish player I've seen since Nigel Carr for example but doesn't have the sheer clout of Nordi. I would rather have seen Ulster guys in their place if we had them but we don't - or didn't as some decent Academy players are about the place. I for one am more than glad that they got opportunities in N.I. and delighted for their contributions. Long may it continue.



If we consider maintaining the Ireland team to be the most important goal, then if it is better for Leinster Messiah No. 34 to move to Ulster rather than Bristol then I am all for it. If he helps drive Ulster to success then that is great. If he then sees his future as better served by a return to the grey skies of the RDS after the sunlit Uplands and the glory of Co. Antrim :D:D:D:D then that is the way to go.



I suspect that we have lost almost a decade of prospective players because of the sheer and utter incompetence of the amateur and 'professional' management and jobs for the boys culture at Ravenhill. Blowing literally millions on a few quality imports but also on as mass of low quality guys and cripples who would be lucky to get a start in AIL. while at the same time our young players never got a look in.



The first port of call for players was the lower reaches of the English leagues, usually when a team got relegated Ulster swooped to enroll their bench players instead of seizing the day and playing the young guns. Even quality players found themselves played out of position week in and out under McLaughlin and then Kiss. It's stuff like that that demoralises a team and quenches any fire and spirit. If you look on and see the 'Boss' is an idiot confirmed with every selection you lose heart.


If the situation was reversed and Ulster was once again producing masses of great players as circa 1985 etc then I would happily see the reverse happening. Sadly demographic and cultural shifts and changes in our society here make this very unlikely indeed.

errlloyd

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/scarlets_rugby/status/1069516352740892673?s=19

I wonder what this means for ROG? A more important role at the 'Saders perhaps.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

With the talent still at Scarlets there is no reason why they shouldn't win mooar trophies.

8 minutes. You had 8 minutes and that's the best you could come up with? :rolleyes: :P

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

8 minutes. You had 8 minutes and that's the best you could come up with? :rolleyes: :P

I was aiming for my worst

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

I was aiming for my worst

Well done in that case. You surpassed expectations!

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote: »

With the talent still at Scarlets there is no reason why they shouldn't win mooar trophies.

With Mooar in charge, there's a lot at steak

Dubinusa

Yes, it's great to see A.O.C and the others contribute to Ulster rugby and forge a professional career for themselves.
Long may it continue and while Leinster do spurn some very talented lads it's really great to see them willing to move to the other provinces.
It's also fantastic that there's young Ulster bred boys coming through.
Hume and Mcburney are hopefully the tip of the iceberg.
To see the u20s flush with Ulster players last season was brilliant. The academy do need to step it up a little as a lot of academy lads have been dropped these past few years.
Donnan and Boomer are a couple who come to mind.
Not everyone who gets an academy place will make it, but I think the process has been flawed.
It seems to me that some lads are accepted and really should have been bypassed.
It's in all the academies as there's a glut of Leinster academy lads in the rfu and the ail. I just think the systems in place need to be looked at.
I think if a province selects a lad and he's not making progress then the scouting systems must be altered.
I don't know what the percentage is for academy graduates to be professional players but, I think we could do better.

Squidgy Black

errlloyd wrote: »

I wonder what this means for ROG? A more important role at the 'Saders perhaps.

It'll be interesting to see if ROG steps up to the assistant role at Crusaders. Would bode well for a potential future return to Ireland.

Mookie Blaylock

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see if ROG steps up to the assistant role at Crusaders. Would bode well for a potential future return to Ireland.

ROG would probably be looking for a head coach gig in NZ... continue his education and come back in 4-5 years for the Ireland gig

CatFromHue

I didn't think ROG's family had moved down to NZ, I could be wrong, so I'm not sure how long term he is thinking of staying down there.

Squidgy Black

CatFromHue wrote: »

I didn't think ROG's family had moved down to NZ, I could be wrong, so I'm not sure how long term he is thinking of staying down there.

They're in France still I believe. Or at least they were for his first year.

The Lost Sheep

CatFromHue wrote: »

I didn't think ROG's family had moved down to NZ, I could be wrong, so I'm not sure how long term he is thinking of staying down there.

They didnt. Stayed in Paris

Buer

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

ROG would probably be looking for a head coach gig in NZ... continue his education and come back in 4-5 years for the Ireland gig

As good as ROG's career is going, I'd be shocked if he was offered a head coaching gig in NZ. They've never had a head coach from outside of NZ for any of their Super Rugby teams and use them as a training ground for development.

I would see ROG seeing out his time in NZ and then looking for a head coaching job in Europe depending on available roles.

Mookie Blaylock

Buer wrote: »

As good as ROG's career is going, I'd be shocked if he was offered a head coaching gig in NZ. They've never had a head coach from outside of NZ for any of their Super Rugby teams and use them as a training ground for development.

I would see ROG seeing out his time in NZ and then looking for a head coaching job in Europe depending on available roles.

I genuinely think he has a chance, he's very highly thought of by Crusaders and others, he was recommended by Dan Carter...and he was 1 of only 2 non New Zealand coaches last season....if he stays in the SH he's definitely in with a shout

Dubinusa

Rog would most likely have to return here for a coaching position before being considered as the national coach.
Can't see them going for someone outside the system.

Elvisjuice

Dubinusa wrote: »

Rog would most likely have to return here for a position before being considered as the national coach.
Can't see them going for someone outside the system.

why would he have to come here for a very good coaching season ,after 92 and the crusaders ,

Bazzo

Elvisjuice wrote: »

why would he have to come here for a very good coaching season ,after 92 and the crusaders that's daft ,

Open to correction but don't think the IRFU have promoted somebody from outside the provinces to the position of head coach in the professional era.

The Lost Sheep

Bazzo wrote: »

Open to correction but don't think the IRFU have promoted somebody from outside the provinces to the position of head coach in the professional era.

Was Brian Ashton not at very start of pro era and he had been coaching in Bath beforehand?

Bazzo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Was Brian Ashton not at very start of pro era and he had been coaching in Bath beforehand?

Yep, you are correct.

Dubinusa

Nucifora has said in the past that they are most likely to promote from within.
ROG has not coached in a head coach position and doesn't have enough experience imo.
He could come back into a role with the national team or one of the provinces.
POC is in his first year as a coach. He was part of the disastrous u20's set up last year. He would'nt be within a shout unless he came back into a role here.
These men are abroad learning and maybe at some point they'll be good coaches.
I would think Leo would have a better chance as he's got head coach experience and has won silverware.
Even though Lancaster gets the plaudits, Culllen brought him in.
Irish coaches need to develop and a lot are doing this abroad. It's likely that most will return at some stage.
I just wish McCall would come back. He's a really good coach.

stephen_n

Farrell is the next Irish manager and is contracted till 2023, who knows what experience ROG will have gained by then. He could easily join the Irish setup under Farrell, who knows. For now he’s in NZ learning his trade and doing a good job by all accounts. But we already know the next Irish manager.

Squidgy Black

stephen_n wrote: »

Farrell is the next Irish manager and is contracted till 2023, who knows what experience ROG will have gained by then. He could easily join the Irish setup under Farrell, who knows. For now he’s in NZ learning his trade and doing a good job by all accounts. But we already know the next Irish manager.

I don't think anyone was saying that ROG was going to be Joe's successor

Buer

Elvisjuice wrote: »

why would he have to come here for a very good coaching season ,after 92 and the crusaders ,

Because we don't tend to promote externally. Every head coach we have had since Ashton (who was a complete disaster) was promoted from within Irish rugby with some (EOS and Farrell) being promoted directly from within the existing national set up.

When we have decent options who have head coaching experience operating within the country, it's highly unlikely that we'll appoint someone with no head coaching experience from outside Irish rugby.

stephen_n

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I don't think anyone was saying that ROG was going to be Joe's successor

No but they’re talking in terms of him being Irish manager and needing experience or to be part of the setup. I’m just pointing out that conversation is 5 years away and a lot will have changed by then.

Jump_In_Jack

stephen_n wrote: »

No but they’re talking in terms of him being Irish manager and needing experience or to be part of the setup. I’m just pointing out that conversation is 5 years away and a lot will have changed by then.

You mean head coach

Dubinusa

Right, he's gaining valuable experience in a great environment.
I can see him being a head coach at one of the provinces.
He really is putting a lot into learning his trade and I think he's going to be a great coach.

stephen_n

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

You mean head coach

Yes I do, if you want to be pedantic, which clearly you do.

Cookiemunster

stephen_n wrote: »

Yes I do, if you want to be pedantic, which clearly you do.

Well in rugby the team manager is a completely different role to head coach, so there is a distinction.

errlloyd

I get sort of bemused by the adoration ROG gets from fans for being abroad. I admire the route he took, and I think it'll benefit him in the long run, but I'd hesitate to say he's anything special now, there are a ton of Irish coaches around the world, some with headcoaching experience that don't get recognition because they weren't legendary players. But there is no strong correlation between playing success and coaching success. Schmidt, Cheika, Jones, Gatland and Hansen all briefly played rugby at a high level, but never truly elite. Erasmus had a short enough stint as a springbok. Townsend was arguably Scotlands best player of the era, but to be fair I don't think Scotland are any better under him than Vern.

When a player or a coach goes abroad we only ever get a filtered version of how it's going for them. We heard he did good things at Racing, but honestly, it can't have been that good if one of the richest teams in the world was willing to let him go mid season. Nvm the fact that him leaving seemed to correlate with an upturn in their results. The racing team at the sharp end of the season (that played Munster and Leinster) was certainly better than the version Munster played when ROG was a coach there.

Jeremy Davidson at Bordeaux, Prendergast at Stade, POC at Stade, Coughlan at Pau. Even Bradley has done well with Zebre but his record isn't amazing elsewhere. Nvm the Irish lads we have here, Fla, Jones, Cullen, Fogarty, Dundon etc. So if the CV is being an assistant coach and having a few decent soundbites about you on twitter I don't think we need to restrict ourselves to ROG.