Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

Buer

Far away fields are green. It's very much a real thing when people discuss Irish players and coaches who are plying their trade abroad.

My two favourite examples are the Grenoble Two, Jackman and Harte. There was a silly amount of good press over the pair of them when they were there, praising what a great job they were doing. But anyone who actually bothered their arse to watch Grenoble knew that the team were cack and Harte was pretty poor outside of a solid season of goal kicking. Yet we had people discussing these two in relation to them both being real options for big moves home and Irish contention in future.

I couldn't be bothered doing any significant research on the matter but I also believe that if the person in question is from or was linked to Leinster or Munster, they'll get twice the coverage they would if they were from Ulster or Connacht. Guys like Niall Annett, David McGowan and Damien Browne were all plying their trade for years and going well without a fraction of the positive press. Even Chris Farrell never garnered the coverage that Harte did during Harte's mildly successful season at Grenoble.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Far away fields are green. It's very much a real thing when people discuss Irish players and coaches who are plying their trade abroad.

My two favourite examples are the Grenoble Two, Jackman and Harte. There was a silly amount of good press over the pair of them when they were there, praising what a great job they were doing. But anyone who actually bothered their arse to watch Grenoble knew that the team were cack and Harte was pretty poor outside of a solid season of goal kicking. Yet we had people discussing these two in relation to them both being real options for big moves home and Irish contention in future.

I couldn't be bothered doing any significant research on the matter but I also believe that if the person in question is from or was linked to Leinster or Munster, they'll get twice the coverage they would if they were from Ulster or Connacht. Guys like Niall Annett, David McGowan and Damien Browne were all plying their trade for years and going well without a fraction of the positive press. Even Chris Farrell never garnered the coverage that Harte did during Harte's mildly successful season at Grenoble.

Bob Casey was the other one

AdamD

Hasn't POC been roundly praised despite being involved with the worst showing of an Irish u20 team in years?

Squidgy Black

AdamD wrote: »

Hasn't POC been roundly praised despite being involved with the worst showing of an Irish u20 team in years?

I think that's a bit harsh considering he's the assistant coach, and the team we had wasn't close to previous years, and they were riddled by injuries.

sydthebeat

Dundon is a kiwi.

AdamD

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I think that's a bit harsh considering he's the assistant coach, and the team we had wasn't close to previous years, and they were riddled by injuries.

My point being there was no reason for praise. Maybe he doesn't deserve to be criticised, but he was seemingly praised just for being there.

errlloyd

sydthebeat wrote: »

Dundon is a kiwi.

So he is. I really liked him as a player for some reason.

sydthebeat

errlloyd wrote: »

So he is. I really liked him as a player for some reason.

he kept it well hidden

Eod100

errlloyd wrote: »

Jeremy Davidson at Bordeaux, Prendergast at Stade, POC at Stade, Coughlan at Pau. Even Bradley has done well with Zebre but his record isn't amazing elsewhere. Nvm the Irish lads we have here, Fla, Jones, Cullen, Fogarty, Dundon etc. So if the CV is being an assistant coach and having a few decent soundbites about you on twitter I don't think we need to restrict ourselves to ROG.

Not sure why McCall doesn't crop up more often. Don't have to be a fan of Saracens to admire what's he's done

Buer

Eod100 wrote: »

Not sure why McCall doesn't crop up more often. Don't have to be a fan of Saracens to admire what's he's done

Might I refer you to my theory above?

Rigor Mortis

Eod100 wrote: »

Not sure why McCall doesn't crop up more often. Don't have to be a fan of Saracens to admire what's he's done

I may have this wrong, but I always got the feeling that McCall didnt have too many friends in the game in Ireland after his stint in Ulster.

I dont think it helps that he coaches one of the most hated teams (by fans outside the UK) in the UK.

I'd love to see him back in Ireland

stephen_n

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Well in rugby the team manager is a completely different role to head coach, so there is a distinction.

Yes there is a distinction, but I’m sure anyone with half a brain could figure out what I meant in the context of the post. Therefore it is pedantry to bother correcting it.

Eod100

Buer wrote: »

Might I refer you to my theory above?

As in he'd need to be coaching an Irish province at time of promotion? Quite possibly yeah but think all this discussion was fairly speculative. Would be same for any of the Irish coaches in France then too. And looking around at other provinces besides Leinster, there hasn't been great consistency in terms of coaches recently. Think coaching landscape has changed a bit so not sure it would follow exact same pattern!

Buer

Eod100 wrote: »

As in he'd need to be coaching an Irish province at time of promotion?

Nah, my belief that those from Ulster get far less support/praise than those from Leinster or Munster when abroad. Given McCall's massive success, he's a good example.

Dog Botherer

https://twitter.com/foychris/status/1070436200639619073?s=21

Disaster for Wasps. 3 of their highest profile players leaving, over 50 million in debt, no silverware prospects, things are looking very grim.

errlloyd

And those bonds mature pretty soon. They won't get the same interest rate next time.

Former Former

Buer wrote: »

Nah, my belief that those from Ulster get far less support/praise than those from Leinster or Munster when abroad. Given McCall's massive success, he's a good example.

I don't know if it's as simple as that. McCall was never a household name as a player, most people would simply ask 'who?' if you told them that Mark McCall was doing great, and the English premiership has never really captured the public imagination here.

On the other hand, everyone knows who ROG is, who POC is, etc. It doesn't really matter what they do, it's going to get attention. If Rory Best or Stephen Ferris went into coaching, they'd get more attention than McCall does.

Squidgy Black

Wasn't there similar rumours floating around about this a few months ago before this summer, saying similar about players going to leave and then they signed contract extensions?

errlloyd

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Wasn't there similar rumours floating around about this a few months ago before this summer, saying similar about players going to leave and then they signed contract extensions?

And all those contract extensions had this "training facilities" clause.

AdamD

They could do with ditching the Le Roux esque signings and sorting out their pack

errlloyd

Edinburgh make something like 19 changes to their team for the game against Newcastle this weekend.

It's the same **** Irish provinces have been doing for years, but the difference is we rarely shipped 44 points even when we rested our firsts. Yet we've seen Ospreys and Edinburgh both phone it in against Munster this season.

The real losers here are the Ulsters of the world, who should be pushing to catch Leinster, but they keep playing full string teams who fancy their chances of getting a point in Belfast, while the best teams get no resistance because resistance is futile.

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

I don't know if it's as simple as that. McCall was never a household name as a player, most people would simply ask 'who?' if you told them that Mark McCall was doing great, and the English premiership has never really captured the public imagination here.

On the other hand, everyone knows who ROG is, who POC is, etc. It doesn't really matter what they do, it's going to get attention. If Rory Best or Stephen Ferris went into coaching, they'd get more attention than McCall does.

He's not a household name but he was well known in rugby circles. It wasn't like he was a Mike Prendergast type figure who was a peripheral provincial player who started a coaching career abroad. McCall started a handful of tests for Ireland and then was head coach at Ulster, leading them to the league title before leaving Ireland.

Jackman, for example, gained more coverage in his time at Grenoble (where he was poor) than McCall has despite being the most successful coach in European rugby over the past decade. Obviously, Jackman courts the media in a way McCall wouldn't consider but there's still a gulf there.

I do agree it's not a black and white situation but I do think that it has always been a contributory factor. People south of the border don't have as much interest in things north of the border (and vice versa to an extent) and the media follows suit.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

So he is. I really liked him as a player for some reason.

Never stepped backwards once. An absolute credit to the jersey for Leinster. Never looked out of his depth.

Was genuinely a brilliant squad player to have.

Dubinusa

We're at the halfway point of the season, just about.
It's concerning for the league imo that the attendance for several sides is awful.
Watching Connacht against Cheetahs, the crowd was below 1500 imo. Edinburgh too only attracts small crowds! Last nites Ulster match in Wales was for me very disappointing. The stadium was about 1/4 full.
The Irish sides do have good support and that's a testament to the provinces.
Zebre too seem to have poor support. I sometimes look at the attendance posted in the match reports and I think they are exaggerated up.
I get that some of these sides are poor, but crap support in Wales? Edinburgh?
To me, its awful.

Serbian

Dubinusa wrote: »

Zebre too seem to have poor support. I sometimes look at the attendance posted in the match reports and I think they are exaggerated up.

I’m pretty sure many of these teams go by tickets sold rather than attendance, so attendance figures would include all season ticket holders regardless of whether they were showing up or not. Leinster were guilty of that a few seasons ago and got called out on it.

Podge_irl

In quite a few stadia the cameras are on the main stand which is also where the majority of the crowd is.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

We're at the halfway point of the season, just about.
It's concerning for the league imo that the attendance for several sides is awful.
Watching Connacht against Cheetahs, the crowd was below 1500 imo. Edinburgh too only attracts small crowds! Last nites Ulster match in Wales was for me very disappointing. The stadium was about 1/4 full.
The Irish sides do have good support and that's a testament to the provinces.
Zebre too seem to have poor support. I sometimes look at the attendance posted in the match reports and I think they are exaggerated up.
I get that some of these sides are poor, but crap support in Wales? Edinburgh?
To me, its awful.

I dont think it is as much of a concern as you are making it out to be.
For many of those sides theyre struggling mid/bottom table sides and product on offer isnt great. Zebre/Cheetahs. Not doing well so crowds wont come.. I dont think attendances are exaggerated up.
Welsh regions have well established issues and have for some time.

Podge_irl wrote: »

In quite a few stadia the cameras are on the main stand which is also where the majority of the crowd is.

yep.

Eod100

Bernard Jackman leaving Dragons. Not shocking but bit surprised it's this early. Maybe hoping to turn their season around. Never really worked out for him but remember before this season in interviews he said with change in squad he hoped to do better.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/46519494

Homesick Alien

Eod100 wrote: »

Bernard Jackman leaving Dragons. Not shocking but bit surprised it's this early. Maybe helping to turn their season around. Never really worked out for him but remember before this season in interviews he said with change in squad he hoped to do better.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/46519494

Surprised he's had any time for coaching with the amount of media he's been doing. I'd say that's what he'll be looking at career wise now because I can't see many teams offering him a gig after that fairly disastrous spell. Unless he does a Lancaster and goes in as an assistant coach somewhere to build up the CV again.

scott1974

Eod100 wrote: »

Bernard Jackman leaving Dragons. Not shocking but bit surprised it's this early. Maybe hoping to turn their season around. Never really worked out for him but remember before this season in interviews he said with change in squad he hoped to do better.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/46519494

Jaysus, it was coming but he's going to find it hard to get a job now..

Eod100

Homesick Alien wrote: »

Surprised he's had any time for coaching with the amount of media he's been doing. I'd say that's what he'll be looking at career wise now because I can't see many teams offering him a gig after that fairly disastrous spell. Unless he does a Lancaster and goes in as an assistant coach somewhere to build up the CV again.

Yeah probably media alright to be fair. He seemed to get a lot of gigs for a current coach tbh.

Wonder who Dragons will get in. Presume assistant coach will take over for now.

Eod100

Eod100 wrote: »

Bernard Jackman leaving Dragons. Not shocking but bit surprised it's this early. Maybe hoping to turn their season around. Never really worked out for him but remember before this season in interviews he said with change in squad he hoped to do better.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/46519494

I'm not surprised at all and was certain this was coming in the aftermath of the Leinster game with just the formalities to delay the announcement.

Dragons only won 70% of their line outs against Leinster in that game and didn't challenge the Leinster line out at all. I thought their forwards looked either poorly prepared and coached or just not bothered and fed up with the setup.

It was a result that was too bad to ignore, a heavy defeat at home against a primarily third string opponent.

His stadium ban probably accelerated this decision by a few weeks but it was definitely on the cards. Welsh rugby media was absolutely scathing at the result and the WRU are putting too much effort into turning the Dragons around to have the person at the helm not deliver.

The optics of his media work isn't great - I'd be uncomfortable with it at the best of times but the night before games is poor form in my opinion.

Part of me thinks Jackman's had his own doubts since last year hence the extra media work. I'm not sure whether he'll stay in pro-coaching now, he might not have a choice but if I was to guess I'd say the D2 in France might be back on the cards.

errlloyd

Someone on OTB or something was talking about it. And saying "imagine how it feels to a Welsh fan, when an Irish man is badly coaching a Welsh Region. Imagine a Welsh coach was ruining Connacht". Very proud rugby rivals. I am actually surprised he lasted as long.

CatFromHue

They'd a pretty big loss to Northampton on the weekend too, lost 48-14 in Newport too.

connemara man

CatFromHue wrote: »

They'd a pretty big loss to Northampton on the weekend too, lost 48-14 in Newport too.

While resting their better players

Burkie1203

scott1974 wrote: »

Jaysus, it was coming but he's going to find it hard to get a job now..

https://twitter.com/RickyHarries/status/1072456233280512000?s=19

Squidgy Black

Deleted User wrote: »

Part of me thinks Jackman's had his own doubts since last year hence the extra media work. I'm not sure whether he'll stay in pro-coaching now, he might not have a choice but if I was to guess I'd say the D2 in France might be back on the cards.

I'm not sure he'll go back to France, he hasn't exactly spoken about his time in Grenoble with much fondness and took quite a few shots at the club and French rugby in general.

Zzippy

errlloyd wrote: »

Someone on OTB or something was talking about it. And saying "imagine how it feels to a Welsh fan, when an Irish man is badly coaching a Welsh Region. Imagine a Welsh coach was ruining Connacht". Very proud rugby rivals. I am actually surprised he lasted as long.

Jaysus, I don't know if I'd be so jingoistic about a Welshman ruining us. We had Michael Bradley and it didn't feel any better that it was an Irishman doing it ...

Dubinusa

He really didn't have much to work with! That Dragons squad is piss poor. He did say it would take a few years to right the ship. But, they are shyte and it starts at the top.
I'd be interested to see who comes in. Where do you start? Recruiting good players will be tough as Dragons have a small budget and who wants to play on a weak team?

Dragons are similar to Zebre at the moment, they are rudderless and lack even a good 1st 15. I think most of the recruits will be journeymen or guys from the rfu league. It's a tough situation and whoever comes in inherits a sack of crap.

Eod100

Zzippy wrote: »

Jaysus, I don't know if I'd be so jingoistic about a Welshman ruining us. We had Michael Bradley and it didn't feel any better that it was an Irishman doing it ...

I'm sure some of those Welsh fans saw it as a conspiracy though .. :P

realhorrorshow

Dubinusa wrote: »

He really didn't have much to work with! That Dragons squad is piss poor. He did say it would take a few years to right the ship. But, they are shyte and it starts at the top.
I'd be interested to see who comes in. Where do you start? Recruiting good players will be tough as Dragons have a small budget and who wants to play on a weak team?

Dragons are similar to Zebre at the moment, they are rudderless and lack even a good 1st 15. I think most of the recruits will be journeymen or guys from the rfu league. It's a tough situation and whoever comes in inherits a sack of crap.

The Dragons squad isn't the worst, especially the first XV, they could be doing quite a bit better IMO.

Burkie1203

Scarlets named Hadleigh Parkes at 10

https://twitter.com/thepaulwilliams/status/1076093579079110656?s=19

Burkie1203

Ospreys 6-6 Scarlets

25 gone. Kick fest

razorblunt

Decent crowd in Murrayfeld.

errlloyd

Duhan Van De Merwe is deadly.

Former Former

errlloyd wrote: »

Duhan Van De Merwe is deadly.

Frightening pace. Glasgow should stop throwing it to him.

Dubinusa

Edinburgh are looking quite good lately. They are developing nicely and I think they'll be better come spring .
Scarlets are falling into the pit of mediocrity at the moment. Not close to the swashbuckling team of last year.

Burkie1203

Dubinusa wrote: »

Scarlets are falling into the pit of mediocrity at the moment. Not close to the swashbuckling team of last year.

Shane Horgan called this last May. Scarlets had big changes to key personal which really hurt them

troyzer

Assuming Leinster get a TBP win tomorrow (easy enough), Leinster will head into the New Year 21 games clear of second.

Even though I'm a Leinster fan, I have to admit this isn't good for the league. The conference could be sewn up by the end of January. Not that it really matters, there's no prize for winning the conference.

But how is the Pro14 going to be a commercial success going forward if it has an issue with teams constantly resting their stars and one team just obliterating everyone else?

Whether we like it or not, the Top14 and Premiership are far more compelling for a neutral.

CatFromHue

It'll be a bit clearer tomorrow but the Premiership isn't mega competitive.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/league-tables/gallagher-premiership-league-table/

It'll prob look like 1 and 2 on 47 pts, 3 on 36/37 pts, and 4 on 26/28

So there'll prob be 20 pts between 1st and 4th which is pretty similar to the Pro14.