Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

ClanofLams

Ospreys Cardiff one of the worst games I have watched in a long time, error ridden and aimless kicking. Dire stuff.

molloyjh

So with Scarlets only getting a 4 pointer at home to Dragons that means Benetton stay 2nd in Conference B for now. Edinburgh have the TBP against Kings too so they jump up to 3rd as it stands. Get another 2 tries and they move up to 2nd. Scarlets are in 4th and Ulster are 5th. There will be 2 points between all 4 of those sides. That’s bloody competitive.

On the flip side (of competitive) Leinster technically need a maximum of 21 points from the remaining 8 games to guarantee top spot. With home games against Scarlets, Kings, Cheetahs, Benetton and Glasgow as well as away trips to Zebre, Edinburgh and Ulster they can deny their direct competition points along the way, meaning they probably only need 16-17 points or so from all of those games. Top spot could be all wrapped up before the end of the 6Ns.

Squidgy Black

Anyone watch the Scarlets game? How did Owens get on at 8?

its_phil

Looking at both conferences this evening, the call to split the league in two has been a brilliant one. 10 teams in with a shout of qualifying for play offs with 8 games to go

Tigerandahalf

The S African sides have been the big disappointment this season. Not sure what the future for them will be.

You can't see how the S Africans can go forward with 6 pro sides. You wonder what the hierarchy there are planning for? I guess if their sides could compete in Europe it would create opportunities to bring back some players.

You do wonder if the S Africans and Premiership rugby might do a link up. 2 big tv markets - where else will that investment fund get their cash back.

Buer

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The S African sides have been the big disappointment this season. Not sure what the future for them will be.

They haven't been a disappointement. Other teams, including Pro14 sides, have completely ravaged their squads. The Cheetahs lost over half of their starting side from last season.

They're going to need 3-4 years before we know what level we can really expect from them consistently.

Tigerandahalf

That depends on the union in S Africa though and where they see their pro14 sides versus the Super sides.

We just don't know if the SA union is using the pro14 experiment to bail out the Cheetahs/Kings exit from Super Rugby, using it to bargain a better Super deal with the other Super unions in the next contract, or whether they have genuine intentions to move into Europe permanently.

Dubinusa

That's the problem Buer! S.A can't provide decent salaries for their players!
The Lions right now are A.I.L standard.
The exports from S.A rugby is staggering, really quite amazing really!
I can't see how they can provide more sides to the pro14, when the current sides are so bereft of quality.
They've like the provinces A sides.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

That's the problem Buer! S.A can't provide decent salaries for their players!
The Lions right now are A.I.L standard.
The exports from S.A rugby is staggering, really quite amazing really!
I can't see how they can provide more sides to the pro14, when the current sides are so bereft of quality.
They've like the provinces A sides.

Lions AIL standard :rolleyes:
Lions finished top of the south african conference in super rugby so stop talking nonsense.
There isnt going to be more sides added to the pro14. Theyre not like A sides of provinces...

Dubinusa

Edinburgh look very tough. Cockerill has them flying right now.
They're going to be in the mix imo.

troyzer

Just on that, I don't know if anyone here has picked up this story yet:

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/kings-conclude-r45-million-buyout-deal/

About €2.7m

Tigerandahalf

troyzer wrote: »

Just on that, I don't know if anyone here has picked up this story yet:

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/kings-conclude-r45-million-buyout-deal/

About €2.7m

Just putting a link on that.
Interesting development. A lot of the unions in SA have been close to bankruptcy and probably were poorly run. I wonder does this free up the Kings to enter what competitions they want. I guess it relieves the pressure on the SA union to run so many professional teams.

Interesting story here too on Eastern Province rugby where the Kings are based.
https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/kings-must-break-the-cycle/

Thrashssacre

In terms of the SA teams the cheetahs show glimpses of brilliance even now if they could just keep a team together long enough to build partnerships they could be a really challenging top 3 side in the conference. Even with that said I can see them taking 16-18 points from the next 4 games (kings twice and zebre twice)

errlloyd

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone watch the Scarlets game? How did Owens get on at 8?

Mostly I'd love to know if he was still throwing the lineout.

Burkie1203

The Welsh are about to go to war again

https://twitter.com/Owenins/status/1082014456023080961?s=19

stephen_n

Burkie1203 wrote: »

The Welsh are about to go to war again

https://twitter.com/Owenins/status/1082014456023080961?s=19

From reading the article there seems to be very little argument about the pay deal from the players or the unions. No mention of the regions having a problem with it either. The little foot note about only funding three regions has no substance or detail, like its an after thought.

bennyl10

PRO14 final are doing 'rugby roulette' for tickets
25euro and allocated a week before

details
https://www.pro14rugby.org/2019/01/04/play-rugby-roulette-to-win-tickets-to-the-2019-guinness-pro14-final/

Rigor Mortis

bennyl10 wrote: »

PRO14 final are doing 'rugby roulette' for tickets
25euro and allocated a week before

details
https://www.pro14rugby.org/2019/01/04/play-rugby-roulette-to-win-tickets-to-the-2019-guinness-pro14-final/

Its a novel idea, but it doesn't help with the idea that this is a high quality event.

bennyl10

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Its a novel idea, but it doesn't help with the idea that this is a high quality event.

Sales must be absolutely brutal if they're resorting to this..

thomond2006

A Black Friday sale, one which I took advantage of, is one thing.

This looks cheap.

Boscoirl

They should just have the final in Lansdowne Road every year

Tigerandahalf

That is a strange one. It sounds like they are trying to cut costs of having a full stadium open and if the numbers are small before match day, put everyone in a smaller area reducing the need for stewards etc.

Who would pay for a top end seat if you could be put in a corner? A bit weird. Maybe a way of generating publicity - it might push a few ticket sales.

With fans saving for the world cup things might be slow this year.

Celtic Park must be about 60, 000.

Podge_irl

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That is a strange one. It sounds like they are trying to cut costs of having a full stadium open and if the numbers are small before match day, put everyone in a smaller area reducing the need for stewards etc.

Who would pay for a top end seat if you could be put in a corner? A bit weird. Maybe a way of generating publicity - it might push a few ticket sales.

With fans saving for the world cup things might be slow this year.

Celtic Park must be about 60, 000.

You're not paying for a top end seat though. You're paying for the lowest end and possibly getting a top end seat.

It's slightly bizarre to be honest and would be annoying if you paid for one of the low end seats at face value.

Quintis

Podge_irl wrote: »

You're not paying for a top end seat though. You're paying for the lowest end and possibly getting a top end seat.

It's slightly bizarre to be honest and would be annoying if you paid for one of the low end seats at face value.

Ya but if you pay for a cheap seat and get a better seat you're delighted, and if you pay for a cheap seat and get a cheap seat you get what you paid for.

Tigerandahalf

But can you pick the best seat and just pay for it?
They must have some seats for that purpose. Some people want to be on halfway and pay for it and know they have it, not a week before the game.

Squidgy Black

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

But can you pick the best seat and just pay for it?
They must have some seats for that purpose. Some people want to be on halfway and pay for it and know they have it, not a week before the game.

The reasoning behind the raffle is basically to fill up the better seats if there's loads of them left the week before the game.

When you buy the raffle ticket, you're buying one of the cheapest seats available. But if there's better seats left a week before the game, they'll upgrade you, and leave the cheaper seat empty instead. So worst case scenario you get the cheaper seat.

So up until a week before the game or whenever the raffle is run you can buy tickets for the better seats providing they're still available and haven't actually sold out.

Riskymove

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

But can you pick the best seat and just pay for it?
They must have some seats for that purpose. Some people want to be on halfway and pay for it and know they have it, not a week before the game.

there have been general sales periods where you could pick your seat

sydthebeat

edinburgh are going to be hard beat during the 6 nations.... in reality there are only going to be down one first choice in their back line (kinghorne)... and also their wing darcey, but at that dougie fife is an able replacement

up front they will retain ross ford at hooker and schoeman at prop.
second row will be stretched as toolis and gilchrist are first choice... but fraser mckenzie and carmichael can hold the fort.
and in the back row, john Barclay is not far from returning, crosbie and bradbury have been getting good game time and what team wouldnt want Mata in there ??


looking at their fixtures from now....
away:- Kings, Blues,
home:- Dragons, Treviso

and then a home game against what will be a depleted leinster a week after the end of the 6N.

They could easily be looking at 22 / 23 points with that schedule.. and absolutely a shoe-in for a home play off place, possibly against connacht or ospreys.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

edinburgh are going to be hard beat during the 6 nations.... in reality there are only going to be down one first choice in their back line (kinghorne)... and also their wing darcey, but at that dougie fife is an able replacement

up front they will retain ross ford at hooker and schoeman at prop.
second row will be stretched as toolis and gilchrist are first choice... but fraser mckenzie and carmichael can hold the fort.
and in the back row, john Barclay is not far from returning, crosbie and bradbury have been getting good game time and what team wouldnt want Mata in there ??


looking at their fixtures from now....
away:- Kings, Blues,
home:- Dragons, Treviso

and then a home game against what will be a depleted leinster a week after the end of the 6N.

They could easily be looking at 22 / 23 points with that schedule.. and absolutely a shoe-in for a home play off place, possibly against connacht or ospreys.

Leinster could have top spot 100% guaranteed by the time they travel to Edinburgh too so it will be an absolutely nothing game for them. They’re 19 clear of Edinburgh as it stands with a massive lead in tries & PD. The next 4 games are Scarlets (H), Zebre (A), Kings (H), Cheetahs (H). That’s likely to be between 18-20 points. So that’d be 37-39 points that Edinburgh would need to make up in 8 games.

troyzer

molloyjh wrote: »

Leinster could have top spot 100% guaranteed by the time they travel to Edinburgh too so it will be an absolutely nothing game for them. They’re 19 clear of Edinburgh as it stands with a massive lead in tries & PD. The next 4 games are Scarlets (H), Zebre (A), Kings (H), Cheetahs (H). That’s likely to be between 18-20 points. So that’d be 37-39 points that Edinburgh would need to make up in 8 games.

Yeah, can't see it.

Conference B is effectively already over. The only fixtures left which are even remotely difficult are the trips to Murrayfield and Ravenhill.

Even if Leinster get nothing from those two, they should be streets ahead by the end of the season.

molloyjh

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah, can't see it.

Conference B is effectively already over. The only fixtures left which are even remotely difficult are the trips to Murrayfield and Ravenhill.

Even if Leinster get nothing from those two, they should be streets ahead by the end of the season.

In terms of top spot it is. But there’s only 2 points between 2nd and 5th. The last KO and European spots are still very much up for grabs so there’s a hell of a lot to play for in the Conference as a whole.

Dubinusa

Ah, the children get to play with the Cheetahs and Lions soon!
I agree on Edinburgh. They are playing some great rugby lately.

sydthebeat

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah, can't see it.

Conference B is effectively already over. The only fixtures left which are even remotely difficult are the trips to Murrayfield and Ravenhill.

Even if Leinster get nothing from those two, they should be streets ahead by the end of the season.

the point isnt about top spot.. its about how close the teams are currently for the home play off play, but how much stronger edinburgh are positioned for it.

not in the least down to cockrills recruitment, and how he has them absolutely motoring

i think they will p!ss into that second place spot

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

edinburgh are going to be hard beat during the 6 nations.... in reality there are only going to be down one first choice in their back line (kinghorne)... and also their wing darcey, but at that dougie fife is an able replacement

up front they will retain ross ford at hooker and schoeman at prop.
second row will be stretched as toolis and gilchrist are first choice... but fraser mckenzie and carmichael can hold the fort.
and in the back row, john Barclay is not far from returning, crosbie and bradbury have been getting good game time and what team wouldnt want Mata in there ??


looking at their fixtures from now....
away:- Kings, Blues,
home:- Dragons, Treviso

and then a home game against what will be a depleted leinster a week after the end of the 6N.

They could easily be looking at 22 / 23 points with that schedule.. and absolutely a shoe-in for a home play off place, possibly against connacht or ospreys.

Great shout. Possibly makes me think Edinburgh could be a decent outside bet for the Pro14 next year, akin to Connacht during the last RWC.

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

Great shout. Possibly makes me think Edinburgh could be a decent outside bet for the Pro14 next year, akin to Connacht during the last RWC.

They face the same issue every season insofar as their team will be raided for anyone who has been showing up well for a season or two. Scottish rugby has so little money or success that they'll always struggle to retain talent.

He's nothing special but Allan Dell is already on his way out. Been involved in all of their Champions Cup games this season and will surely be the first of the usual handful. They're always very busy in the market and bring in good players but it's impossible to get any continuity going.

Squidgy Black

Buer wrote: »

They face the same issue every season insofar as their team will be raided for anyone who has been showing up well for a season or two. Scottish rugby has so little money or success that they'll always struggle to retain talent.

He's nothing special but Allan Dell is already on his way out. Been involved in all of their Champions Cup games this season and will surely be the first of the usual handful. They're always very busy in the market and bring in good players but it's impossible to get any continuity going.

I'd say there'll be a lot of people knocking on Bill Mata's door at the end of next season if he keeps performing.

errlloyd

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusive-the-pro14-in-takeover-talks-with-private-equity-firm

Private equity firm in talks to take over the Pro14. Some other crap about more markets and new teams.

But one thing is for certain, no private company would allow the league to continue to be run the way the unions currently run it.

troyzer

errlloyd wrote: »

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusive-the-pro14-in-takeover-talks-with-private-equity-firm

Private equity firm in talks to take over the Pro14. Some other crap about more markets and new teams.

But one thing is for certain, no private company would allow the league to continue to be run the way the unions currently run it.

I can sort of understand the idea of giving a big media company skin in the game.

It's clear that these rugby competitions do not have the in-house talent to grow the sport.

But you can't give up control.

Exclamation Marc

Fixtures for the last few rounds have been released

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/status/1085914697239576582?s=19

Podge_irl

errlloyd wrote: »

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusive-the-pro14-in-takeover-talks-with-private-equity-firm

Private equity firm in talks to take over the Pro14. Some other crap about more markets and new teams.

But one thing is for certain, no private company would allow the league to continue to be run the way the unions currently run it.

Don't believe it for a second. Also adding Ealing to the league? That's a complete non runner.

Squidgy Black

Podge_irl wrote: »

Don't believe it for a second. Also adding Ealing to the league? That's a complete non runner.

I don't think it's even in the realm of possibility, but I wonder if the ringfencing does happen in the premiership would we see a couple of the top championship teams knocking on the door.

Not that we should take them in, because they'll be no more than fodder for the South Africans but would be interesting to see.

bilston

Surely the RFU and possibly even the Premiership would have to agree to a club like Ealing joining the Pro 14.

Maybe it's only the RFU who need to give their approval. If it is then it might be useful for them to get a few teams in the Pro 14 if an all out civil war between them and the Premiership ever broke out.

All pretty unlikely stuff mind.

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

Surely the RFU and possibly even the Premiership would have to agree to a club like Ealing joining the Pro 14.

Maybe it's only the RFU who need to give their approval. If it is then it might be useful for them to get a few teams in the Pro 14 if an all out civil war between them and the Premiership ever broke out.

All pretty unlikely stuff mind.

Only the RFU would have to approve it, but yeah it’s not really going to happen.

Having a private company buyout part of the league like they have in the Prem might make sense if the terms are right.

Podge_irl

The RFU and World Rugby would have to sign off on it.

There is zero chance of the IRFU giving up any control to a private entity.

Neil3030

molloyjh wrote: »

Only the RFU would have to approve it, but yeah it’s not really going to happen.

Having a private company buyout part of the league like they have in the Prem might make sense if the terms are right.

Investors will seek a league structure that is diametrically opposed to the wishes of the unions. I can't see how the two sides could reach mutually satisfactory terms.

Tigerandahalf

For me if the unions are to remain in control 4 or 5 of the big English teams will have to break away and join a British/Irish league. That way the RFU would have a setup similar to the other unions.

The likes of Leceister must be wondering if they would be better off in a system that would mean no relegation and secure their future. Either the Premiership scraps relegation or clubs like Leceister, Bath, Saracens and Wasps will want to protect their own futures.

Whether a breakaway like that would be supported though is unknown. We have seen how the Welsh carve up caused a lot of divide.

The real key I suppose is whether a club league is catching enough to leave the international game in 2nd place. At the moment it doesn't seem feasible as the top players can only play a certain amount of games in the year and no club league can dominate if they are not playing week in week out.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Only the RFU would have to approve it, but yeah it’s not really going to happen.

Having a private company buyout part of the league like they have in the Prem might make sense if the terms are right.

We don't really know. The LTA may well contain a non-compete clause that contractually prevents the RFU from allowing other top flight leagues in England. In fact I'd be pretty surprised if it didn't.

AdamD

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

For me if the unions are to remain in control 4 or 5 of the big English teams will have to break away and join a British/Irish league. That way the RFU would have a setup similar to the other unions.

The likes of Leceister must be wondering if they would be better off in a system that would mean no relegation and secure their future. Either the Premiership scraps relegation or clubs like Leceister, Bath, Saracens and Wasps will want to protect their own futures.

Whether a breakaway like that would be supported though is unknown. We have seen how the Welsh carve up caused a lot of divide.

The real key I suppose is whether a club league is catching enough to leave the international game in 2nd place. At the moment it doesn't seem feasible as the top players can only play a certain amount of games in the year and no club league can dominate if they are not playing week in week out.

Relegation shouldn't and (most seasons, and I'm happy to predict including this season) doesn't effect any of the clubs you've named.

thomond2006

If selling a minority stake allows the likes of the SA and Italian teams to recruit and more importantly retain players then hopefully it gets done.

On that note, I'm surprised that I haven't read about a raid on the Benetton squad already. The previous revolving door after the 2013/14 season crippled that team for years.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

If selling a minority stake allows the likes of the SA and Italian teams to recruit and more importantly retain players then hopefully it gets done.

On that note, I'm surprised that I haven't read about a raid on the Benetton squad already. The previous revolving door after the 2013/14 season crippled that team for years.

I agree with this. The main criticism of the CVC deal with the Premiership is that for the clubs, the money is the important part. Which many of them will use to simply pay more imports. The deal makes the Premiership more unstable because they'll splurge the cash quickly and lose revenue permanently unless CVC can dramatically expand the media market.

If a company like CVC was to buy a share in the Pro14, it would have to be done in such a way as to ensure that clubs don't splurge it on imports. This wouldn't be a problem for the Irish clubs as the IRFU wouldn't let them but maybe the Italian and Welsh clubs would feel the pinch. The South African teams would be using it just to keep what they have, same with the Scottish.

From a Leinster perspective, it would be interesting to see what they could do with a few million quid in windfall. It likely wouldn't be anywhere near the £20m that the Premiership clubs are each getting. But it might be enough to start buying out shares in the RDS Arena?