Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

Tigerandahalf

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

When do you play this 7s competition and what benefits does this bring?
Premiership has a 7s tournament and has for years played in July and August. When would you play it and what crowds would it really attract?

It is a tricky one. I guess you could play it before the pro14 games with fringe squad players being used. But it is pie in the sky stuff. The 15 code will always dominate.

The 6 Nations has lost a lot of cash recently with Guinness signed up as title sponsor. So the unions will have a hole to fill.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

No, but you were talking about success. Success = winning things. Only one Irish team have been winning things in recent years.

Success is relative. It cant simply be winning trophies. All depends on your squad and their experiences, past etc.
Yes Leinster have won trophies but theyre far from only side to be successful.

The Lost Sheep

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It is a tricky one. I guess you could play it before the pro14 games with fringe squad players being used. But it is pie in the sky stuff. The 15 code will always dominate.

The 6 Nations has lost a lot of cash recently with Guinness signed up as title sponsor. So the unions will have a hole to fill.

Unions have hole to fill but 7s isnt the answer. I know it was August but look at take up to the 7s that was held in Thomond Park for a couple of years. Surely A games or provincial players playing club rugby would be far more beneficial with those inclined towards 7s involved in IRFU plans in Dublin with that set up now running well.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

No, but you were talking about success. Success = winning things. Only one Irish team have been winning things in recent years.

Nope, you just have a narrow view of what success should be defined as. I have a broader view. Again, by your definition every team that doesn’t win is a failure. Real life is rarely that black and white though.

awec wrote: »

But again you keep referring back to the national team, which while true, just reinforces the fact the pro14 is just a development league, which is exactly why we constantly see complaints about it from the Welsh, why it's stuck on a tiny, niche broadcaster in the UK and why it struggles to be taken seriously.

None of which was anything I was trying to disprove, as I’ve already said. I’ve just come to the conclusion that this is the best thing for Irish rugby overall. We could change the league to “fix” it, but we’d be damaging other elements of the game here by doing that. I’d rather we were set up for success in all competitions personally.

awec wrote: »

Yes, 100%. Losing internationals is much more costly for Ulster compared to Leinster. We don't have a huge squad.

But surely any improvement Ulster would see would be proportionally larger for Leinster?

Tigerandahalf

Robert Kitson in the Guardian proposed a British/Irish league of 24 teams with 2 divisions and relegation/promotion.

Given that the Premiership have sold a stake to CVC it will be interesting to see how they propose to get a return on their investment. Going down the above route would be an option.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Nope, you just have a narrow view of what success should be defined as. I have a broader view. Again, by your definition every team that doesn’t win is a failure. Real life is rarely that black and white though.



None of which was anything I was trying to disprove, as I’ve already said. I’ve just come to the conclusion that this is the best thing for Irish rugby overall. We could change the league to “fix” it, but we’d be damaging other elements of the game here by doing that. I’d rather we were set up for success in all competitions personally.



But surely any improvement Ulster would see would be proportionally larger for Leinster?

No. Take out Ulster's internationals and we become mediocre, this is not the case for Leinster. We have a greater chance of making a game of it in March than we did in January because at least we know we won't have to send the A team.

I think it's easy to talk about "the best thing for Irish rugby overall" when your club has one of the biggest, most likely most expensive squads in European rugby and is winning all round them.

The Lost Sheep

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Robert Kitson in the Guardian proposed a British/Irish league of 24 teams with 2 divisions and relegation/promotion.

Given that the Premiership have sold a stake to CVC it will be interesting to see how they propose to get a return on their investment. Going down the above route would be an option.

Is that answer? Where do Italians go? Back to their own league and the pro14 sides split players back into top12 clubs? Is that best for 6Nations and rugby in europe overall?

Tigerandahalf

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Is that answer? Where do Italians go? Back to their own league and the pro14 sides split players back into top12 clubs? Is that best for 6Nations and rugby in europe overall?

I don't know.
The Italians are stakeholders now so they can't just be ditched.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

No. Take out Ulster's internationals and we become mediocre, this is not the case for Leinster. We have a greater chance of making a game of it in March than we did in January because at least we know we won't have to send the A team.

I think it's easy to talk about "the best thing for Irish rugby overall" when your club has one of the biggest, most likely most expensive squads in European rugby and is winning all round them.

And maybe this also comes back to what I said earlier about the Ulster issues not being down to the IRFU and the league. If Ulster were doing better at bringing guys through at Academy level (not Leinster level, but better) then you might find it easier to agree too. After all, Munster are doing well (not Leinster level, but well nonetheless) without what we have here.

EDIT: It’s also easy to talk about the best thing for Irish rugby when the national team is doing as well as it is and we’ve seen a marked improvement in depth in under 4 years.

Former Former

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Is that answer? Where do Italians go? Back to their own league and the pro14 sides split players back into top12 clubs? Is that best for 6Nations and rugby in europe overall?

That's the question though. Does the Pro14 continue to be utterly subservient to other considerations or does it need to be a viable commodity in its own right? Should the Welsh clubs be worried about the Italians when they're struggling so badly themselves?

It suits the IRFU to keep it in its current form, but if it's not viable long-term for the Welsh then it's doomed anyway, so just staying the course isn't a great plan either.

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

That's the question though. Does the Pro14 continue to be utterly subservient to other considerations or does it need to be a viable commodity in its own right? Should the Welsh clubs be worried about the Italians when they're struggling so badly themselves?

It suits the IRFU to keep it in its current form, but if it's not viable long-term for the Welsh then it's doomed anyway, so just staying the course isn't a great plan either.

Can the P14 (or whatever iteration it could end up being) ever survive without the Union funding the teams within it currently depend on?

At the end of the day every single competition is subservient to the Union(s) that host it. That’s how rugby works. At every level of the sports governance the international game is king. I can’t see that changing any time soon. If ever.

awec

I think Former Former's point is we should not assume that the WRU will continue to be happy to fund their regions in the pro14 forever.

I stand to be corrected, but I am pretty sure that the Dragons for example are just a financial drain for the WRU, and they ultimately contribute pretty much nothing to the pro14.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I think Former Former's point is we should not assume that the WRU will continue to be happy to fund their regions in the pro14 forever.

I stand to be corrected, but I am pretty sure that the Dragons for example are just a financial drain for the WRU, and they ultimately contribute pretty much nothing to the pro14.

And what about the Scots and Italians? Or should we all just be concerned with the Welsh? It’s up to them to make their set-up work, not everyone else. If we’ve been able to make it work then they should be able to make a fist of it. If they decide to go a different way then that’s on them. But the reality is they don’t really have any other option, do they?

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

And what about the Scots and Italians? Or should we all just be concerned with the Welsh? It’s up to them to make their set-up work, not everyone else. If we’ve been able to make it work then they should be able to make a fist of it. If they decide to go a different way then that’s on them. But the reality is they don’t really have any other option, do they?

Wales is probably the most important region in the Pro14. Without them it's as dead as the dodo.

troyzer

We shouldn't forget about project reset in all of this chat about Wales.

The details have been out there for a while now. The finances of Welsh rugby have been dramatically changed.

The Lost Sheep

Former Former wrote: »

That's the question though. Does the Pro14 continue to be utterly subservient to other considerations or does it need to be a viable commodity in its own right? Should the Welsh clubs be worried about the Italians when they're struggling so badly themselves?

It suits the IRFU to keep it in its current form, but if it's not viable long-term for the Welsh then it's doomed anyway, so just staying the course isn't a great plan either.

Cant argue with that

molloyjh wrote: »

Can the P14 (or whatever iteration it could end up being) ever survive without the Union funding the teams within it currently depend on?

At the end of the day every single competition is subservient to the Union(s) that host it. That’s how rugby works. At every level of the sports governance the international game is king. I can’t see that changing any time soon. If ever.

+1. League cant/wont survive without unions funding the teams within the league get. Very hard to see it ever changing especially when its only two countries that have non union owned sides as rest cant do it.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Wales is probably the most important region in the Pro14. Without them it's as dead as the dodo.

Without them is only a possibility if they have somewhere to go. They don’t. So the emphasis there should be on them getting their act together, not everyone else changing to suit them.

And none of this answers the question of whether or not the league is capable of standing alone without the Union money involved. I don’t think it is at all. There’s absolutely no evidence and there are no examples that I can think of to support that possibility.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Without them is only a possibility if they have somewhere to go. They don’t. So the emphasis there should be on them getting their act together, not everyone else changing to suit them.

And none of this answers the question of whether or not the league is capable of standing alone without the Union money involved. I don’t think it is at all. There’s absolutely no evidence and there are no examples that I can think of to support that possibility.

A league built with a union who is only there because they have nowhere else to go is not really a great business model. That's what we have today and it shows.

And nobody is suggesting ditching unions, or anything close to it.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

A league built with a union who is only there because they have nowhere else to go is not really a great business model. That's what we have today and it shows.

And nobody is suggesting ditching unions, or anything close to it.

FF can correct me if I’m wrong, but was he not talking about a league that is financially independent?

Dubinusa

The Welch regions are inept!
But the Scot sides are doing well!!!
Benetton are a good side and improving and all 4 provinces are going as well as can be expected.

The Welch union cannot sustain all 4 regions. Eventually, Dragons will possibly be scrapped.

Judging by the u20's last year and this year, Italy are getting some good young quality coming through! This is great for Italian rugby and for the pro14.

The Lions would struggle in the AIL. They are awful.
The Cheetahs are not winning anything either.
The pro14 shoulda have insisted on a super rugby team.

Adding 2 more buckets of crap is not going to help.

Bridge93

Dubinusa wrote: »

The Welch regions are inept!
But the Scot sides are doing well!!!
Benetton are a good side and improving and all 4 provinces are going as well as can be expected.

The Welch union cannot sustain all 4 regions. Eventually, Dragons will possibly be scrapped.

Judging by the u20's last year and this year, Italy are getting some good young quality coming through! This is great for Italian rugby and for the pro14.

The Lions would struggle in the AIL. They are awful.
The Cheetahs are not winning anything either.
The pro14 shoulda have insisted on a super rugby team.

Adding 2 more buckets of crap is not going to help.

The two South Africans were Super Rugby teams. they played in it the season before joining the Europeans. The talk since has been that any more South Africans will be Currie Cup teams and not Super sides which would be a disaster.
Its all so finely balanced. The South African super rugby teams join us and it kills Super Rugby. The Welsh leave and it kills the Pro14.
A European league just seems the most satisfactory for all euro parties but has its own problems.
A world league with 4 divisions like in Rugby 08 on the playstation would be class but totally not feasible. Not possible until this global calendar is ever (if ever) agreed. The problems are all part and parcel of trying to grow a minority game when only two or three countries can sustain an internal league themselves.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

The Welch regions are inept!
But the Scot sides are doing well!!!
Benetton are a good side and improving and all 4 provinces are going as well as can be expected.

The Welch union cannot sustain all 4 regions. Eventually, Dragons will possibly be scrapped.

Judging by the u20's last year and this year, Italy are getting some good young quality coming through! This is great for Italian rugby and for the pro14.

The Lions would struggle in the AIL. They are awful.
The Cheetahs are not winning anything either.
The pro14 shoulda have insisted on a super rugby team.

Adding 2 more buckets of crap is not going to help.

Welsh can sustain 4 regions.
Both the Kings and Cheetahs were super rugby sides. They moved to play pro14 after they were cut from super rugby.

sydthebeat

Kings and cheetahs lads.....

if we had the SA lions then that would be a big boost to the league

Burkie1203

Embra 14-17 Dragons at HT

If dragons win this one its a huge result in the conference

Dubinusa

The Lions are woeful!!! Absolutely trash. They offer zero! Nada! Zilch.
It's absurd that the level of the pro14 is so imbalanced.

Burkie1203

Dubinusa wrote: »

The Lions are woeful!!! Absolutely trash. They offer zero! Nada! Zilch.
It's absurd that the level of the pro14 is so imbalanced.

Lions?

Stone Gossard

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Lions?

Typical yank...he's watching the cheetahs on a 96" tv...makes everything look bigger

stephen_n

Former Former wrote: »

They dilute the quality of the product. Not that the quality of their teams is worse, but it just doesn't make sense having them there.

You're selling TV rights, sponsorship deals, naming rights, whatever. Across the Celtic nations, everyone is speaking the same language, we're buying the same stuff, we get the same channels, we respond to the same ads. It's an easy enough sell.

Except then you bring the Italians and South Africans into it; how many brands are there that can sell their product across all five countries? Your pool of partners is much smaller. Now, you might get someone on board who has a global reach and you're quids in, or you might not. Your TV rights become a fragmented mess, or you don't sell them at all in the case of Italy.

There are too many game weekends in which Joe Public just has no interest. Going back to ten teams frees up four weekends in the calendar. That means you can drop the game days that clash directly with international matches.
It means (in theory) that because there's more opportunity for rest, teams can send out their better players in a greater proportion of matches and they're the players most people want to see. Most people just don't want to see the Leinster thirds travelling to Parma taking on a bunch of nobodies. Fewer games, higher quality, more attractive product.

None of this will happen, I understand that, and that's why the Pro14 will just keep trundling along.

The population of Italy is 3 1/2 times the population of Ireland, Wales and Scotland combined. As is the population of South Africa, the words economy of scale come to mind.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

The population of Italy is 3 1/2 times the population of Ireland, Wales and Scotland combined. As is the population of South Africa, the words economy of scale come to mind.

Yea but the population of Italy that cares about rugby is small.

thomond2006

8 tries this season for Duhan van der Merwe. Edinburgh need to tie him down as soon as possible. He's out of contract in summer 2020 when he'll turn 25.

Eod100

That Zebre Leinster result much closer than most would have thought.

awec

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/pro14-invisible-convoluted-mess-most-15736120

"The PRO14 is an invisible, convoluted mess that most people simply don't care about"

Good article about the Pro14 given what we were discussing the other day. It's hard to argue with any of it.

thomond2006

Another copy and paste whine no doubt.

thomond2006

Another copy and paste whine no doubt.

I wish they'd put as much energy into trying to make it work.

Zzippy

awec wrote: »

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/pro14-invisible-convoluted-mess-most-15736120

"The PRO14 is an invisible, convoluted mess that most people simply don't care about"

Good article about the Pro14 given what we were discussing the other day. It's hard to argue with any of it.

The Welsh just want to be in the English league, and are constantly talking down the Pro14. No matter how obvious it is that the English don't want them, they refuse to accept reality.

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Another copy and paste whine no doubt.

I wish they'd put as much energy into trying to make it work.

Read it. It's not a whine. It's pretty legitimate stuff, in fact most of their issues have been raised on here in the past (e.g. the move to the obscure TV channel killing off interest).

awec

Zzippy wrote: »

The Welsh just want to be in the English league, and are constantly talking down the Pro14. No matter how obvious it is that the English don't want them, they refuse to accept reality.

Agree it's not going to happen, but it doesn't mean their complaints are not real.

Zzippy

awec wrote: »

Read it. It's not a whine. It's pretty legitimate stuff, in fact most of their issues have been raised on here in the past (e.g. the move to the obscure TV channel killing off interest).

If we want a league that brings in money we need TV deals. Premier sports is dirt cheap for UK viewers - a tenner a month IIRC. I'm paying a hell of a lot more for the Eirsport package. The Welsh are awful whingers. They want international quality games every week but don't want to pay to watch it.

troyzer

Fitzgerald just said he'd start Madigan against Italy and Zebo is the best fullback available.

So much ****e.

awec

Zzippy wrote: »

If we want a league that brings in money we need TV deals. Premier sports is dirt cheap for UK viewers - a tenner a month IIRC. I'm paying a hell of a lot more for the Eirsport package. The Welsh are awful whingers. They want international quality games every week but don't want to pay to watch it.

Yes, but the premier sports package overall is garbage. The Eir Sports package is actually a far better deal (well, until Eir lose BT).

The league decided to take the money, fair enough. The cost will be mindshare, and people's interest. Sticking it on some niche channel is not going to grow interest.

The league is just not going to last as it is right now. I just don't see how.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Another copy and paste whine no doubt.

Yeah, it’s all from a Welsh perspective. They’ve no interest. But they’ve never really had an interest. Not much has actually changed. The real mess is Welsh rugby. But I’ve no idea if there even is a solution to that.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Yes, but the premier sports package overall is garbage. The Eir Sports package is actually a far better deal (well, until Eir lose BT).

The league decided to take the money, fair enough. The cost will be mindshare, and people's interest. Sticking it on some niche channel is not going to grow interest.

The league is just not going to last as it is right now. I just don't see how.

The pay TV thing is just their latest excuse. The Welsh have never really had much of an interest and have generally been far more interested in infighting and pining for the English than making a real go of professional rugby below international level.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, it’s all from a Welsh perspective. They’ve no interest. But they’ve never really had an interest. Not much has actually changed. The real mess is Welsh rugby. But I’ve no idea if there even is a solution to that.

People keep saying this.

The real problem is that there is no product that Welsh regions can sell to the public. People just don't care for the league.

It's hard for the regions to grow themselves if the welsh rugby public see them as selling a pup.

I honestly think we're in denial if we think the league is grand and the welsh are just whinges. The league is crap. We put up with it because there's no alternative, but really the league is crap. It's like we're annoyed here that the welsh just won't get on message like the rest of us and try sell it as something it isn't.

ClanofLams

Welsh whinging and no constructive suggestions. Shocker.

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

People keep saying this.

The real problem is that there is no product that Welsh regions can sell to the public. People just don't care for the league.

It's hard for the regions to grow themselves if the welsh rugby public see them as selling a pup.

I honestly think we're in denial if we think the league is grand and the welsh are just whinges. The league is crap. We put up with it because there's no alternative, but really the league is crap. It's like we're annoyed here that the welsh just won't get on message like the rest of us and try sell it as something it isn't.

People don't care for the regions themselves in some cases too. That's not....wait for it....the Pro14's fault.

Eod100

awec wrote: »

Read it. It's not a whine. It's pretty legitimate stuff, in fact most of their issues have been raised on here in the past (e.g. the move to the obscure TV channel killing off interest).

I've read it myself. It all comes back to Welsh clubs in particular having an issue. Obviously it's not perfect but there's no suggestions for improvement either

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

People keep saying this.

The real problem is that there is no product that Welsh regions can sell to the public. People just don't care for the league.

It's hard for the regions to grow themselves if the welsh rugby public see them as selling a pup.

I honestly think we're in denial if we think the league is grand and the welsh are just whinges. The league is crap. We put up with it because there's no alternative, but really the league is crap. It's like we're annoyed here that the welsh just won't get on message like the rest of us and try sell it as something it isn't.

Where has anyone said any of this? Are you seeing posts that aren’t there?

The setup in Wales is a mess. It references some of it in the article itself. Large numbers don’t relate to their regions. The regions themselves are independent of the WRU. Kind of. They say they don’t know their budgets for next season. The WRU say they do. They had central contracts, then they didn’t. They selected players from overseas, then they didn’t, they they did in select circumstances, then they changed the rules because tbdidnt suit. Welsh rugby is a total mess.

The Ospreys aren’t crap because of the league. The Welsh have struggled to have any more than a single team performing at any point in time. Despite all the talent in the country (they’ve been consistently competitive at U20 & senior level internationally) that hasn’t translated at regional level, for a number of reasons.

Ignoring the total farce that is Welsh rugby is as bad as ignoring some of the issues with the league. Personally I’m willing to accept those issues with the league because I believe on balance we’re getting the best out of Irish rugby across the board this way.

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

People don't care for the regions themselves in some cases too. That's not....wait for it....the Pro14's fault.

WHy don't they care for the regions?

troyzer

awec wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

People don't care for the regions themselves in some cases too. That's not....wait for it....the Pro14's fault.

WHy don't they care for the regions?

Because the WRU are incompetent and ****ed up the regionalisation programme in the early 2000s by alienating the clubs.

molloyjh

Yeah, this stuff has feck all to do with the league. The league might be able to make it a little less bad, but it isn’t a solution to the issues they have.