Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

razorblunt

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ugh we are cutting our noses off to spite our face if other Pro14 teams continue to raid the Kings and Cheetahs.

Pretty much, Cassiem hasn't been anywhere near his Cheetahs form for the Scarlets.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

How many people walk up to a rugby game with no previous interest? Of course it’s relevant but just not as relevant as the playing populations, which provide a much more solid base of support I’d imagine. More people does not definitely mean more interest in the game.

Plenty actually. Saturday night in Thomond had plenty of kids there with parents etc and parents by looks of them during game etc had no interest in game. Overall population is always more vital.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ugh we are cutting our noses off to spite our face if other Pro14 teams continue to raid the Kings and Cheetahs.

Yeah makes no sense as if keeps happening eventually they wont be able to continue and we'd lose one/both of them.

stephen_n wrote: »

By walk up’s I assumed he meant people who don’t go to rugby matches, not non season ticket holding supporters who go to occasional games. Maybe I’m wrong?

I just think that the amount of rugby playing schools and rugby clubs is a far bigger influence than overall population. Especially since Dublin is hugely multicultural and a lot of those nationalities would not have a clue what rugby was.

I dont think number of schools/clubs playing the sport is bigger factor. Overall population will always be more important to growth/potential audience than simply those already playing the sport

phog

stephen_n wrote: »

By walk up’s I assumed he meant people who don’t go to rugby matches, not non season ticket holding supporters who go to occasional games. Maybe I’m wrong?

Fair enough but I think most people when they refer to walk ups are talking about casual fans who buy their tickets at the last minute

I just think that the amount of rugby playing schools and rugby clubs is a far bigger influence than overall population. Especially since Dublin is hugely multicultural and a lot of those nationalities would not have a clue what rugby was

Yes that should also help with attendances but population has to have an effect too.

thomond2006

Round 19:
Glasgow vs Ulster
Munster vs Cardiff
Cheetahs vs Ospreys
Zebre vs Connacht
Scarlets vs Edinburgh
Leinster vs Benetton
Kings vs Dragons

Glasgow vs Ulster and Scarlets vs Edinburgh should be competitive affairs. After rotating in the Challenge Cup, Connacht should have more than enough to get a win at Zebre but the Italians are coming off a trip to Limerick where they gave Munster a fright. Benetton travel to Leinster who will have to heavily rotate after an incredibly physical game against Ulster, with the visitors looking to repeat last season's shock win in Dublin. Munster play Cardiff in Cork, with both sides familar with artificial pitches.

thomond2006

Reports in SA that Francois Steyn will sign for the Cheetahs. I imagine he won't come cheap, even if he's past his best.

Exclamation Marc

Darren Cave retiring at the end of the season.

thomond2006

Josh Navidi out for the season due to injury (10-12 weeks).

Utopia Parkway

thomond2006 wrote: »

Josh Navidi out for the season due to injury (10-12 weeks).

Big loss for Cardiff.

Zzippy

Simon Thomas has posted the format for next season. If no changes to the current league positions, Conference A looks very tough...

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro14-conferences-overhauled-next-16077439

If the new conferences were decided today...

If the new Guinness PRO14 conference were decided today, they'd look like this...

Conference A: Leinster, Connacht, Scarlets, Ospreys, Glasgow, Zebre, Cheetahs.

Conference B: Munster, Ulster, Cardiff Blues, Dragons, Edinburgh, Benetton, Southern Kings.

awec

https://twitter.com/SouthernKingsSA/status/1113813495307538432?s=20

So the Kings are becoming a development team for Toulon?

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SouthernKingsSA/status/1113813495307538432?s=20

So the Kings are becoming a development team for Toulon?

So Toulon will just take any good players they manage to develop. Can’t see many Toulon players going down to SA to play.

Zzippy

stephen_n wrote: »

So Toulon will just take any good players they manage to develop. Can’t see many Toulon players going down to SA to play.

They might send a few espoirs down to get first team experience in the Pro14??

aloooof

awec wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SouthernKingsSA/status/1113813495307538432?s=20

So the Kings are becoming a development team for Toulon?

Does this mean the SA teams being allowed entry to the Champions Cup is entirely off the table? Southern Kings are about as far from good enough to qualify as is imaginable, but it would be a conflict of interest.

Obviously not currently eligible but wasn't there talk of this being revisited in ~3 years after their inclusion to the league?

b.gud

aloooof wrote: »

Does this mean the SA teams being allowed entry to the Champions Cup is entirely off the table? Southern Kings are about as far from good enough to qualify as is imaginable, but it would be a conflict of interest.

Obviously not currently eligible but wasn't there talk of this being revisited in ~3 years after their inclusion to the league?

I suppose it could be a short term deal and it could have an escape clause if the SA teams are granted qualification to European rugby down the line

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

So Toulon will just take any good players they manage to develop. Can’t see many Toulon players going down to SA to play.

At a guess, Toulon will be allowed to make approaches for in-contract players that they develop, in exchange for the Kings effectively becoming the Toulon development squad.

aloooof wrote: »

Does this mean the SA teams being allowed entry to the Champions Cup is entirely off the table? Southern Kings are about as far from good enough to qualify as is imaginable, but it would be a conflict of interest.

Obviously not currently eligible but wasn't there talk of this being revisited in ~3 years after their inclusion to the league?

I would imagine that the SA sides joining the Champions / Challenge cup is not on the agenda. Hard to see English or French teams agreeing to the travel.

thomond2006

Looking at Toulon's statement, there is a non-rugby/networking element to it as well with possible partnerships between the sponsors of both clubs (The Kings were recently privatised).

On the rugby side, it mentions the possible loaning of players, the sharing of knowledge of training/S&C and friendly matches.

I imagine Toulon will use this partnership to loan out some espoirs, which happens already between Top14 and ProD2 clubs. For example, Thomas Ramos of Toulouse spent time in the ProD2 with Colomiers.

stephen_n wrote: »

So Toulon will just take any good players they manage to develop. Can’t see many Toulon players going down to SA to play.

They wouldn't be able to do much of this due to JIFF rules.

Neil3030

I've been a supporter of the SA teams in the Pro14 until now, but if the most their teams can aspire to is a development team for a French side, they can take a hike.

errlloyd

I was also sort of hoping they could qualify for Europe at some stage, this will be the end of that I think. (though it didn't seem on the cards anyway).

stephen_n

Zzippy wrote: »

They might send a few espoirs down to get first team experience in the Pro14??

Not sure how effective Toulons academy is, or how any French kids would be in it?

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

They wouldn't be able to do much of this due to JIFF rules.

That’s what I was thinking, though not sure how JIFF works. Could the French born kids go and still qualify under JIFF rules?

thomond2006

stephen_n wrote: »

Not sure how effective Toulons academy is, or how any French kids would be in it?

Well they are producing 10s. Belleau has played for France and Carbonel played for the U20s this season. A quick glance at Toulon's squad page shows most of them have French names.

JIFF refers to players who have come an academy system. The South African players would have to go there at 18 years old. However the quota has tightened to the point (15 out of a match day 23 must be JIFF, riding to 17 by 2021-22) where I don't see clubs using too many spots on young foreign prospects instead of established pros.

Anyway Pro14 thread...!

aloooof

awec wrote: »

I would imagine that the SA sides joining the Champions / Challenge cup is not on the agenda. Hard to see English or French teams agreeing to the travel.

Wasn't there talk of them playing any potential Champions Cup games in England, iirc?

errlloyd

Ruan Pieenar has been linked with The Cheetahs. He hasn't played for Monty since his sister died in a car accident a number of weeks ago. But he's just returned from South Africa.

thomond2006

Ospreys have a TBP in the bag in Bloemfontein. It keeps their small chance of finishing 4th alive.

thomond2006

Scarlets led Edinburgh 12-0 at HT but now trail 12-20. It's probably curtains for them if they lose.

thomond2006

It finished 12-20. Shock result.

thomond2006

Glasgow (71): Leinster (A), Edinburgh (H)

Munster (68): Benetton (A), HCC SF, Connacht (H)

Connacht (56): Cardiff (H), Munster (A)

Cardiff (52): Connacht (A), Ospreys (H)

Ospreys (49): Kings (A), Cardiff (A)

Both Munster and Glasgow face tough trips before home derbies they would expect to win.

Connacht vs Cardiff next week decides 3rd place. Ospreys should get five points against the Kings meaning they could travel to CAP looking to secure 4th place.

thomond2006

Ulster (54): Edinburgh (A), Leinster (H)

Benetton (52): Munster (H), Zebre (A)

Edinburgh (51): Ulster (H), Glasgow (A)

Scarlets (45): Zebre (H), Dragons (A)

Scarlets should win both remaining games but tonight's loss was a hammer blow. Edinburgh vs Ulster will the game of the round.

durkadurka

Still lots of possibilities. I suspect munster and Leinster will send out the Bs next week and could lose.

Meaning Glasgow home and hosed and Treviso in pole position to take third.

Digifriendly

durkadurka wrote: »

Still lots of possibilities. I suspect munster and Leinster will send out the Bs next week and could lose.

Meaning Glasgow home and hosed and Treviso in pole position to take third.

Agreed. Treviso should win both their games. Ulster need to beat Edinburgh although a losing bp against Edinburgh with Edinburgh not getting a bp would still leave them with a chance of being in top 3.

Cosmo Kramer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Glasgow (71): Leinster (A), Edinburgh (H)

Munster (68): Benetton (A), HCC SF, Connacht (H)

Connacht (56): Cardiff (H), Munster (A)

Cardiff (52): Connacht (A), Ospreys (H)

Ospreys (49): Kings (A), Cardiff (A)

Both Munster and Glasgow face tough trips before home derbies they would expect to win.

Connacht vs Cardiff next week decides 3rd place. Ospreys should get five points against the Kings meaning they could travel to CAP looking to secure 4th place.

Ospreys I think could still even get 3rd if Connacht don't beat Cardiff. An Ospreys win v Cardiff and a Connacht loss away to Munster would see Ospreys into the playoffs.

Blut2

Great to see Treviso doing so well, hopefully they secure a playoff spot. Their draw last night was well deserved.

It'll be a bit of a disaster for Welsh rugby if they don't manage to get even a single team into the playoffs, though.

Digifriendly

Blut2 wrote: »

Great to see Treviso doing so well, hopefully they secure a playoff spot. Their draw last night was well deserved.

It'll be a bit of a disaster for Welsh rugby if they don't manage to get even a single team into the playoffs, though.

Still possible that Wales could be without a team in CC next season.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/SARugbymag/status/1114814796875149313?s=19

Squidgy Black

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SARugbymag/status/1114814796875149313?s=19

And so the era of the King's being a dumping ground for Toulon's big name players who are past their prime begins....

Clegg

The Scarlets miss John Barclay every bit as much as they do Beirne. They've nobody able to do the dirty work in the backrow. They're a shadow of the side that won the Pro 12 and made to the the European semis.

Scarlets need two new locks, a blindside and a number 8. I don't think either of the mentioned players are world class, but they're probably only a rung right below that. Between them they could plug so many gaps. Without them Scarlets lack of depth is apparent.

thomond2006

The lack of return from their signings has really hurt the Scarlets.

Bloometjies and Hidalgo-Clyne could barely make the team and are now out on loan, Cassiem hasn't repeated his Cheetahs form and Thomson has been injured. Fonotia is a downgrade from Scott Williams.

Burkie1203

Gareth Anscombe to join Ospreys apparently

Squidgy Black

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Gareth Anscombe to join Ospreys apparently

Dragons are supposedly in talks about signing Sam Davies over the past few days so this move could make that likely.

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

The lack of return from their signings has really hurt the Scarlets.

Bloometjies and Hidalgo-Clyne could barely make the team and are now out on loan, Cassiem hasn't repeated his Cheetahs form and Thomson has been injured. Fonotia is a downgrade from Scott Williams.

What ever happened with Hidalgo-Clyne, he looked like a future star when he first broke into the Scottish team. He just seems to have gone steadily backwards since then though.

thomond2006

Savea just called BS on the report linking him to the Kings so let's park that one.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/IrishRugbyShed/status/1115345622469623809?s=19

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/SDM_Robertson/status/1115922782901211136?s=19

scott1974

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SDM_Robertson/status/1115922782901211136?s=19

Glasgow need forwards not backs...

Shefwedfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SDM_Robertson/status/1115922782901211136?s=19

Not 100% sure that is what Glasgow or Scotland need

thomond2006

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not 100% sure that is what Glasgow or Scotland need

Maybe not but it's a good sign if Glasgow can sign that calibre of name.

Shefwedfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishRugbyShed/status/1115345622469623809?s=19

I wouldnt believe everything you read. Most of the rugby Premiership clubs will point back to the start of the soccer Premiership and all those clubs had huge losses as they upgraded grounds and facilities. The clubs are seemingly ploughing money into stadiums etc and that is why such huge losses


Once they had the stadiums and facilities they could get bigger crowds etc and also have TV money. Unless BT go bust in the next few years they are all safe.


Thats the story if you ask the club rugby fan in England

AdamD

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I wouldnt believe everything you read. Most of the rugby Premiership clubs will point back to the start of the soccer Premiership and all those clubs had huge losses as they upgraded grounds and facilities. The clubs are seemingly ploughing money into stadiums etc and that is why such huge losses


Once they had the stadiums and facilities they could get bigger crowds etc and also have TV money. Unless BT go bust in the next few years they are all safe.


Thats the story if you ask the club rugby fan in England

Problem is that's not what's happening, they're pissing away their money on salaries.

Buer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Most of the rugby Premiership clubs will point back to the start of the soccer Premiership and all those clubs had huge losses as they upgraded grounds and facilities.

If they do, they're very foolish. There's no comparison between the money that was on the table back then for football and the money that is on the table now for rugby and the cost of development and construction has rocketed also.

In 2015, Premiership Rugby agreed a 6 year tv deal which is supposedly around £200m. 23 years earlier, the Premier League sold the television rights to Sky for £300m for 5 years (that's between £500m and £600m in today's money).

Despite that huge gap, the wage bill for a Premiership Rugby squad today is actually probably slightly more than the wage bill for a Premier League squad in 1993. The risk of financial difficulty is far more likely for the teams in the Premiership; they're being bailed out year after year by wealthy owners.

errlloyd

Twice as many teams in the football version (albeit squads are half as big).