Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

aloooof

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Absolutely, losing those three players has reduced the overall quality. I agree that the squads are closer, impossible to argue otherwise given the squad changes although a James Lowe start would be an improvement on the total net loss with who has left. Bear in mind, Munsters squad improvements have been massively reduced with Zebo gone and they've found nobody nearly as good as him. I still think Leinster have the better squad though. Doesn't mean they'll win of course

Agreed on a lot of this tbh, particularly Zebo and James Lowe. My main point really was just that Munster's squad has net strengthen since last year while Leinster's has net weakened. And that's a bigger factor than anything else towards reducing the gap between them.

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Someone quite literally said that Munster would be favourites to win in their mind because of 'hunger' which is where my post originated.

I'm embracing my inner pedant here, admittedly, and I can't speak for that poster, but thinking Munster will win and thinking Munster are favourites to win are 2 different stances.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

Agreed on a lot of this tbh, particularly Zebo and James Lowe. My main point really was just that Munster's squad has net strengthen since last year while Leinster's has net weakened. And that's a bigger factor than anything else towards reducing the gap between them.



I'm embracing my inner pedant here, admittedly, and I can't speak for that poster, but thinking Munster will win and thinking Munster are favourites to win are 2 different stances.

My point about hunger was that as an organisation, Munster will want it more.

Last year, Leinster rested Sexton and a few others and are likely to do so again. Munster on the other hand are so desperate for silverware that I can see them basically telling the IRFU to get ****ed and throwing the entire team out. World cup be damned.

They'll also hit an emotional fever pitch which Leinster will struggle to replicate, especially if they win in Newcastle.

All of this was true last year of course. The difference this year is that Leinster is a couple of players worse off and Munster are a couple of players better off. And they did only lose by a point last year.

It's impossible to know without seeing team sheets but I wouldn't question Leinster being favourites. I just think Munster would nick it. Quicker back onto their feet, harder into the carry, more dominant in the tackle. These are things that motivation can give you and I think if Munster get on top early, they'll see it through. They'll just want it more.

leakyboots

Something that gets a bit glossed over here is over the course of the season Munster finished with more points than Leinster in the league, pipped them in the last game. And have a better defensive record in a harder half of the league.

Now I know Leinster took their foot off the gas selection-wise but still...

That said, I'll watch with great interest to see how Leinster get on with Sarries. I don't think Sarries will put up the kind of the score they did on us but it'll be interesting to compare.

Obviously if we meet in the RDS that could be the acid test - would be a right humdinger. I don't think there's too much between the sides to be honest, Leinster have the attacking edge but it looks like we're taking steps to fix that. We're not too far away otherwise.

Podge_irl

leakyboots wrote: »

Something that gets a bit glossed over here is over the course of the season Munster finished with more points than Leinster in the league, pipped them in the last game. And have a better defensive record in a harder half of the league.

Now I know Leinster took their foot off the gas selection-wise but still...

I think "took their foot off the gas" is wildly under-stating just how ludicrously early Leinster locked up the top of their conference and how many dead rubbers they played.

I would also strongly contest the "harder half of the league" comment. Conf B's 2 basement teams are undoubtedly worse but Edinburgh and Scarlets are better teams than Ospreys and Blues.

I haven't really seen anything to suggest there isn't much between the sides to be honest - while its not huge there is a clear gap I would say. Leinster's phase play is better and their game-breaking ability is probably better. Will be an interesting semi and I may well end up looking silly, but Leinster are still a bit ahead of Munster to my mind.

Downlinz

KBurke85 wrote: »

https://www.pro14rugby.org/2019/05/03/stars-ready-to-be-honoured-at-guinness-pro14-awards/

Bit surprised by the player of the year nominees. From a Connacht point of view surprised Carty or Farrell didnt get a mention

Has to be Monty Ioane's. Phenomenal player and an incredible season, we haven't given him enough attention in Ireland and I hope that doesn't punish Munster tomorrow.

leakyboots

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think "took their foot off the gas" is wildly under-stating just how ludicrously early Leinster locked up the top of their conference and how many dead rubbers they played.

I would also strongly contest the "harder half of the league" comment. Conf B's 2 basement teams are undoubtedly worse but Edinburgh and Scarlets are better teams than Ospreys and Blues.

I haven't really seen anything to suggest there isn't much between the sides to be honest - while its not huge there is a clear gap I would say. Leinster's phase play is better and their game-breaking ability is probably better. Will be an interesting semi and I may well end up looking silly, but Leinster are still a bit ahead of Munster to my mind.

So why did they both finish with less points that those in Munster's group?


Surely Munster losing narrowly away and beating Leinster at home suggests the gap has closed significantly from recent seasons?

Digifriendly

Wales Online saying that if results go a particular way in both English Premiership and TOP 14, Pro 14 and Leinster win CC then there is an extra place for Pro 14 and Cardiff would then be in a CC play off with Scarlets and Ospreys would qualify automatically.

errlloyd

So if all of the CC Cup, winner and every, challenge cup semi finalist have qualified on merit already, then the extra slot goes to a team from the CC winners country.

CatFromHue

The final place is awarded in the following order:[2]

2018–19 Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
2018–19 Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
2018–19 Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
Play-off match between the losing 2018–19 Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the 2018–19 Champions Cup winner

Leinster and Sarries are already qualified
Clermont and La Rochelle play the Challenge Cup final and both are qualified
Quins and Sale are the losing Challenge Cup SF and they're 5th and 6th in the Premiership.

So I presume if one of Quins or Sale qualify automatically then the play off game doesn't happen and it goes to highest non qualified team from the Champions Cup winner's league

The 7th spot from the Pro14 is meant to come from a play off between 4th placed in each conference. If Leinster win that should mean there's an extra spot for the Pro14 and it should go to

Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the 2018–19 Champions Cup winner

It doesn't seem fair to have a play off game for this spot between 4th placed in one conference and 5th in another

errlloyd

Last year's play off was a fourth place v fifth place team.

Cookiemunster

errlloyd wrote: »

Last year's play off was a fourth place v fifth place team.

That's because Cheetahs finished third in their conference, so fourth qualified for Europe automatically.

Shefwedfan

I know Leo got nominated for coach of the year but really it has to go to treviso or Ulster coach....

Andy friend I would have included if Connacht won today

Exclamation Marc

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I know Leo got nominated for coach of the year but really it has to go to treviso or Ulster coach....

Andy friend I would have included if Connacht won today

Think they all have a good shout. Cullen had top spot secured with two and a half months of the season to go.

That's incredible. Kieran Cowley definitely has a shout too and I think it's between him and Cullen and it's down to the coach who was by far the most successful against the coach who has made the most improvements.

Either of them deserve it.

KBurke85

CatFromHue wrote: »

Leinster and Sarries are already qualified
Clermont and La Rochelle play the Challenge Cup final and both are qualified
Quins and Sale are the losing Challenge Cup SF and they're 5th and 6th in the Premiership.

So I presume if one of Quins or Sale qualify automatically then the play off game doesn't happen and it goes to highest non qualified team from the Champions Cup winner's league

The 7th spot from the Pro14 is meant to come from a play off between 4th placed in each conference. If Leinster win that should mean there's an extra spot for the Pro14 and it should go to



It doesn't seem fair to have a play off game for this spot between 4th placed in one conference and 5th in another

Playoff all explained here
https://www.pro14rugby.org/2019/05/03/clarification-on-european-play-off-game/

phog

WHO HAS THE TOUGHEST SCHEDULE IN THE PRO14?

errlloyd

The league isn't fair and I think that has to be a bitter pill for teams who just miss out. But ultimately other types of unfairness have a different impact. Glasgow got to play Leinster when they were already through. Munster had to play them much earlier in the season. That table doesn't account for it. But Glasgow don't win that game if Leinster need to.

awec

There are many issues in the Pro14 that reduce the integrity of the competition in terms of fairness. It's just the nature of the competition. You'll never have a perfectly fair structure, but the Pro14 is pretty bad at it as it stands today.

Off the top of my head, these things are all a problem. Obviously some of these are unfixable.

1. The stupid league structure
2. Games during international periods when teams are decimated by call ups
3. Multiple teams in the same league with the same owners
4. Fixture scheduling where certain fixtures are always put in at the same time when it is convenient for both teams.

thomond2006

I just want Ulster vs Munster to not be held around New Year's, so I can go to the game. Is that too much to ask?

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

I just want Ulster vs Munster to not be held around New Year's, so I can go to the game. Is that too much to ask?

The interpro schedule must be due a bit of a shuffle at this stage.

Except they'll not move Leinster v Munster, which is a bit bollocks really.

troyzer

awec wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

I just want Ulster vs Munster to not be held around New Year's, so I can go to the game. Is that too much to ask?

The interpro schedule must be due a bit of a shuffle at this stage.

Except they'll not move Leinster v Munster, which is a bit bollocks really.

It's in nobody's interest to move the marquee fixture.

Jump_In_Jack

Anyone willing to kick off a Leinster v Munster build-up thread?

Exclamation Marc

awec wrote: »

The interpro schedule must be due a bit of a shuffle at this stage.

Except they'll not move Leinster v Munster, which is a bit bollocks really.

The final round interpro games have become oddities alright the last few years. Would be good to find a way to get some meaning or life out of them.

MarinersBlues

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

awec wrote: »

The interpro schedule must be due a bit of a shuffle at this stage.

Except they'll not move Leinster v Munster, which is a bit bollocks really.

The final round interpro games have become oddities alright the last few years. Would be good to find a way to get some meaning or life out of them.

I think they are putting those fixtures there to ensure there is some bite to a round of games that will often be full of dead rubbers.

If there was anything at stake in the Munster Connacht game in the last round that could have been a massive game.
It looked like that would be the case for most of the season, but just didn't pan out that way.

ClanofLams

All Irish reffing team for Glasgow v Ulster. That’s ridiculous, I don’t think for a second there will be any bias but even the appearance of bias should be guarded against. Really amateur hour stuff.

Expect Glasgow to win so doubt it will matter afterwards but the league is unnecessarily leaving itself open to heavy criticism here were Ulster to pull off a shock and there were any controversial decisions. Surely could have given it to Whitehouse/Owens, one Scottish and Irish AR if necessary and neutral tmo.

ScrubsfanChris

Osprey v Scarlets euro qualifier is about to kick off.
Completely forgot this was on.

Bazzo

Serious fall from grace for Scarlets. Ospreys seem to be improving a bit towards the end of the season.

ScrubsfanChris

Bazzo wrote: »

Serious fall from grace for Scarlets. Ospreys seem to be improving a bit towards the end of the season.

Wonder if Pivac already has his mind on the big job. If not I wonder are the WRU questioning their decision :pac:

Diabhal Beag

Legitimately impressed by how ****e Scarlets are since they won the league

Buer

Diabhal Beag wrote:

Legitimately impressed by how ****e Scarlets are since they won the league

Making a game of it now. Would have been a joke if they disallowed that. Tipuric flung himself to deck.

Shefwedfan

Whats the score?

vienne86

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Whats the score?

14-10 to Ospreys.

vienne86

Ospreys win 21-10.

troyzer

Leinster are -4 favourites going by Paddy Power.

sydthebeat

troyzer wrote: »

Leinster are -4 favourites going by Paddy Power.

Wow.

I'm not so sure about that at all....

I would have had it closer to glasgow-3

FACECUTTR

troyzer wrote: »

Leinster are -4 favourites going by Paddy Power.

I wouldn't like to disrespect Glasgow but I think Leinster will beat that spread easily.

troyzer

sydthebeat wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Leinster are -4 favourites going by Paddy Power.

Wow.

I'm not so sure about that at all....

I would have had it closer to glasgow-3

Why? Leinster are the better team.

sydthebeat

troyzer wrote: »

Why? Leinster are the better team.

Oh dunno...

Glasgow coming in in fantastic form with hardly a run out in the semi in their own city...... against a team who have put in two hard weeks of full on battle, looking less than sharp.

I'm actually praying for a murkey wet ****ty day

troyzer

sydthebeat wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Why? Leinster are the better team.

Oh dunno...

Glasgow coming in in fantastic form with hardly a run out in the semi in their own city...... against a team who have put in two hard weeks of full on battle, looking less than sharp.

I'm actually praying for a murkey wet ****ty day

The flip side to that is Leinster are battle hardened for a physical war.

It's also the last game of the season, it's easier to get tired and sore bodies motoring when there's a massive session at the end with no worries.

sydthebeat

troyzer wrote: »

The flip side to that is Leinster are battle hardened for a physical war.

It's also the last game of the season, it's easier to get tired and sore bodies motoring when there's a massive session at the end with no worries.

Yeah, can't disagree.

Though having seen ospreys twice, Glasgow twice, munster and connacht all win the league on the back of an easier end of year than their more fancied opponents...... I'll make my considerations on those basis

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yeah, can't disagree.

Though having seen ospreys twice, Glasgow twice, munster and connacht all win the league on the back of an easier end of year than their more fancied opponents...... I'll make my considerations on those basis

Not sure how Connacht had an easier end to year than Leinster? Leinster didn’t make European knockouts that year and last two games before final were handy wins over Treviso and Ulster. Connacht had two tough battles with Glasgow.

Clegg

Scarlets built their style around an good pack that could ruck, jackel, carry and link better than any side in the Pro 14. They weren't the biggest or strongest, but skills made up for it. They were especially adept at disrupting opposition attacking ball and getting turnovers.

What really made them good was developing a system where their standout talent could flourish, namely Barclay and Beirne. But last summer they lost both of them, the heartbeat of their side. Those two could do it all. Couple that with Shingler and James Davies missing a huge part of the season through injury and you're left with a pretty average pack. They lost all their poachers, their ruck work took a huge step back, and their ball carrying was pretty abysmal. Could punch holes in sides.

Last season's European semi and League final, both against Leinster, showed up Scarlets deficiencies. If you could starve them of turnover ball they struggled. They weren't geared to take the game to you. You could pretty much bully them.if you had the right set of forwards. Which is what happened. Losing their best forwards has only exacerbated Scarlets problems.

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

Not sure how Connacht had an easier end to year than Leinster? Leinster didn’t make European knockouts that year and last two games before final were handy wins over Treviso and Ulster. Connacht had two tough battles with Glasgow.

Leinster provided 18 of the 31 2015 RWC squad. Connacht provided 2.

Connacht had the easier run in due to their squad consistency.

Connacht thoroughly deserved their win... No doubting that.

troyzer

sydthebeat wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

The flip side to that is Leinster are battle hardened for a physical war.

It's also the last game of the season, it's easier to get tired and sore bodies motoring when there's a massive session at the end with no worries.

Yeah, can't disagree.

Though having seen ospreys twice, Glasgow twice, munster and connacht all win the league on the back of an easier end of year than their more fancied opponents...... I'll make my considerations on those basis

You're right. The Pro14 has a weird habit of bringing out the best in weaker teams on paper.

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

Leinster provided 18 of the 31 2015 RWC squad. Connacht provided 2.

Connacht had the easier run in due to their squad consistency.

Connacht thoroughly deserved their win... No doubting that.

Well that’s a very different reason than ‘easier end of year’.

Don’t think it’s much of a factor personally and if you look at Leinster winning back to back European Cups in 11 and 12 when they provided a similar number to the squad it didn’t affect them after the 2011 World Cup.

Leinster just weren’t very good in 2016, Cullen’s first year, no Lancaster, poor attack. They were in the gap between great teams. Molony and Mick Kearney starting with Triggs on the bench a good example of that, latter two have moved on and the former very much second choice. Obviously Toner was out due to bereavement.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

Well that’s a very different reason than ‘easier end of year’.

Don’t think it’s much of a factor personally and if you look at Leinster winning back to back European Cups in 11 and 12 when they provided a similar number to the squad it didn’t affect them after the 2011 World Cup.

Leinster just weren’t very good in 2016, Cullen’s first year, no Lancaster, poor attack. They were in the gap between great teams. Molony and Mick Kearney starting with Triggs on the bench a good example of that, latter two have moved on and the former very much second choice. Obviously Toner was out due to bereavement.

Connacht won fair and square. At that stage Lam was 3 years into a project and Cullen got threw in at deep end with a squad he needed to migrate from old to new.

If Leinster won that year it would have covered the cracks, the loss helped them as it sped up the squad transition

At the end of the day based on that day but over the whole season Connacht deserved it

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

Well that’s a very different reason than ‘easier end of year’.

Don’t think it’s much of a factor personally and if you look at Leinster winning back to back European Cups in 11 and 12 when they provided a similar number to the squad it didn’t affect them after the 2011 World Cup.

Leinster just weren’t very good in 2016, Cullen’s first year, no Lancaster, poor attack. They were in the gap between great teams. Molony and Mick Kearney starting with Triggs on the bench a good example of that, latter two have moved on and the former very much second choice. Obviously Toner was out due to bereavement.

Leinster were 2/5 favourites for that game.
Connacht were 2/1

errlloyd

The previous year we didn't make the playoffs... So like...

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

Leinster were 2/5 favourites for that game.
Connacht were 2/1

Yeah I know who was favourites. That often happens when teams are going for their first trophy against powerhouses, Kerry were favourites for football finals against Armagh and Tyrone is an example that springs to mind.

Doesn’t counter my point about Leinster being not very good in 2016 though.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yeah I know who was favourites. That often happens when teams are going for their first trophy against powerhouses, Kerry were favourites for football finals against Armagh and Tyrone is an example that springs to mind.

Doesn’t counter my point about Leinster being not very good in 2016 though.

Leinster where not very good, sexton, Cullen etc all-came out and said it

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yeah I know who was favourites. That often happens when teams are going for their first trophy against powerhouses, Kerry were favourites for football finals against Armagh and Tyrone is an example that springs to mind.

Doesn’t counter my point about Leinster being not very good in 2016 though.

No, but I'm backing up my point about the underdog prevailing against the "more fancied opponents" which is where this whole conversation came from.

I'm suggesting that Glasgow +4 is surprising to me given the history of the finals and the circumstances coming into this one.

If you think leinster -4 is good value then lump on it......