Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

Cookiemunster

Riskymove wrote: »

we shouldn't forget that they chose not to change conferences this season in order to "develop intra conference rivalries" or something

Munster should have swapped conferences if I recall

They did it so that there wouldn't be an imbalance of games. Teams who had 10 homes games the first season had 11 last season and vice versa and the teams in opposite conferences played each other home and away over two seasons.

Changing the conferences after one season could have led to some teams only having 10 home games both seasons or having 4 games in SA.

Riskymove

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Changing the conferences after one season could have led to some teams only having 10 home games both seasons or having 4 games in SA.

is that not possible every time they change some of the teams around?

Riskymove

and does it mean that they will effectively have conferences for a 2 year period each time?

Jump_In_Jack

When they made up the conferences the first time they didn't have to worry about the league positions versus playoffs as they were the same anyway.
Munster had more points than Leinster and did better than them in the playoffs by reaching the final, whereas Leinster lost the semi-final.
Scarlets also had more points than Ospreys and went further in the playoffs when they won the final.
There were no other teams involved in the playoffs, only two semi-finals and a final at that time.

The Kings had more points than the Cheetahs when they were released from Super Rugby, so the Kings were SA Team 1 and The Cheetahs were SA Team 2.
Edit - from the Pro14 website, they actually state that they used a different criterion, they put the Cheetahs as SA Team 1 due to the fact they were higher in their conference than Kings were in their conference. Changed below in bold accordingly.

Hence for 2017-18 season:
Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Munster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Ospreys + Cardiff
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 1 = Cheetahs

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Leinster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Scarlets + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 2 = Kings


Leinster absolutely cannot in all fairness be labelled as Ire 2 after winning 3 cups in 2 seasons and having beaten Munster in the playoffs in the past two seasons.
So in keeping with the system above, and considering the results from the playoffs:

Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Leinster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Cardiff + Scarlets
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 1 = Cheetahs

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Munster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Ospreys + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 2 = Kings

The above will mean 3 2 swaps, which is actually perfect, and if you look at how the conferences will change, it makes for two competitive conferences, can't really complain, at most could complain that Zebre and Kings will be in the same conference but there are 3 very poor teams including the Dragons so two of them will have to be in the same conference and there's not much difference between them.

Jump_In_Jack

Riskymove wrote: »

and does it mean that they will effectively have conferences for a 2 year period each time?

That would make the most sense, yes.

Eod100

Munster finished 1 point ahead of Leinster. Is it based off league place or knock out stage?

Cookiemunster

Eod100 wrote: »

Munster finished 1 point ahead of Leinster. Is it based off league place or knock out stage?

League position AFAIK. but let's be honest, it's the Pro14 so anything is possible.

Cookiemunster

Riskymove wrote: »

is that not possible every time they change some of the teams around
and does it mean that they will effectively have conferences for a 2 year period each time?

Yes, it was announced at the start of the season that the conferences would only change every second year to make it fair for everyone when it came to the fixture list.

Eod100

Cookiemunster wrote: »

League position AFAIK. but let's be honest, it's the Pro14 so anything is possible.

Yeah that's probably it!

bennyl10

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

When they made up the conferences the first time they didn't have to worry about the league positions versus playoffs as they were the same anyway.
Munster had more points than Leinster and did better than them in the playoffs by reaching the final, whereas Leinster lost the semi-final.
Scarlets also had more points than Ospreys and went further in the playoffs when they won the final.
There were no other teams involved in the playoffs, only two semi-finals and a final at that time.

The Kings had more points than the Cheetahs when they were released from Super Rugby, so the Kings were SA Team 1 and The Cheetahs were SA Team 2.

Hence for 2017-18 season:
Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Munster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Ospreys + Cardiff
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 2 = Cheetahs

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Leinster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Scarlets + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 1 = Kings


Leinster absolutely cannot in all fairness be labelled as Ire 2 after winning 3 cups in 2 seasons and having beaten Munster in the playoffs in the past two seasons.
So in keeping with the system above, and considering the results from the playoffs:

Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Leinster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Cardiff + Scarlets
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 2 = Kings

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Munster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Ospreys + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 1 = Cheetahs

The above will mean 3 swaps, which is actually perfect, and if you look at how the conferences will change, it makes for two competitive conferences, can't really complain, at most could complain that Zebre and Kings will be in the same conference but there are 3 very poor teams including the Dragons so two of them will have to be in the same conference and there's not much difference between them.

Of course Leinster can, if it’s done on regular season rankings, not one off games.

Now it’s pro14 so they’ll probably just randomly pick out of a hat

molloyjh

The P14 us unfortunately damned if they do and damned if they dont on this one. If they assign a specific rule to the conference set up you could have the same conferences for 4 years running and people would complain about that. If they leave it open to tweaking every 2 years to ensure that doesn't happen they get grief over not having a definitive system. People tend not to give the league credit when it's due but are very quick to have a go over any and every perceived issue. They are 100% right to leave the conference set-ups a little vague (assuming that they are) to ensure that they have the freedom to tweak things as and when its needed.

sydthebeat

so leinster and glasgow set to be in the same conference for the first time..

i wonder how the scots will feel about been beaten by the irish five times in the one season

degsie

sydthebeat wrote: »

so leinster and glasgow set to be in the same conference for the first time..

i wonder how the scots will feel about been beaten by the irish five times in the one season

Hope they leave room in their baggage for all the sour grapes they will be bringing to the RDS :eek:

AbusesToilets

They've a long way to go before they match the Welsh.

Buer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They've a long way to go before they match the Welsh.

I really don't know if they do.

The BBC Scotland commentary was outstanding. I think they must have had a bet to see how many times they could call Kearney not getting a red card an "utter disgrace". The co-commentator had a cracker too when he accused Kearney of trying to deliberately trip up the physio to prevent him reaching Hogg.

The bitterness was impressively sharp on the day.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

I really don't know if they do.

The BBC Scotland commentary was outstanding. I think they must have had a bet to see how many times they could call Kearney not getting a red card an "utter disgrace". The co-commentator had a cracker too when he accused Kearney of trying to deliberately trip up the physio to prevent him reaching Hogg.

The bitterness was impressively sharp on the day.

was that Ali Kellock ??

Exclamation Marc

Cookiemunster wrote: »

League position AFAIK. but let's be honest, it's the Pro14 so anything is possible.

This is incorrect.

Last years seedings had Leinster in Tier 1 and Glasgow in Tier 2. Leinster won but Glasgow finished the league with 6 more points and were still in the third tiering.

Last years ECPR tiering for seedings were (from the Pro14)
1. Leinster
2. Scarlets
3. Glasgow
4. Munster
5. Edinburgh
6. Cardiff
7. Ulster

League finishes were;
A
Glasgow 76
Munster 69
Cardiff 54

B
Leinster 70
Scarlets 70
Edinburgh 68
Ulster 62

Leinster beat Scarlets in the final.
Glasgow and Munster were knocked out in the semi.

Based on this, next years tiering will have Leinster at 1 (and Ireland 1 for Pro14) and Glasgow at 2 (and Scotland 1 for Pro14). This was the basis for the Pro14 seedings this season.

Former Former

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

This is incorrect.

Last years seedings had Leinster in Tier 1 and Glasgow in Tier 2. Leinster won but Glasgow finished the league with 6 more points and were still in the third tiering.

Last years ECPR tiering for seedings were (from the Pro14)
1. Leinster
2. Scarlets
3. Glasgow
4. Munster
5. Edinburgh
6. Cardiff
7. Ulster

League finishes were;
A
Glasgow 76
Munster 69
Cardiff 54

B
Leinster 70
Scarlets 70
Edinburgh 68
Ulster 62

Leinster beat Scarlets in the final.
Glasgow and Munster were knocked out in the semi.

Based on this, next years tiering will have Leinster at 1 (and Ireland 1 for Pro14) and Glasgow at 2 (and Scotland 1 for Pro14). This was the basis for the Pro14 seedings this season.

I think you're getting mixed up. The EPCR seedings and Pro14 rankings are not necessarily the same. EPCR is based on positions after the knockouts, but no-one is sure if the Pro14 will do likewise.

The Pro14 conferences for this season were the same as the previous one. They kept the same pools for two seasons so Leinster winning the trophy in 2018 had no bearing on it. Leinster and Scarlets "should" have been kept apart this season as Ireland 1 and Wales 1 from 2017-18, but they were in the same pool because they were Ireland 2 and Wales 1 in 2016-17

Cookiemunster

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

This is incorrect.

Last years seedings had Leinster in Tier 1 and Glasgow in Tier 2. Leinster won but Glasgow finished the league with 6 more points and were still in the third tiering.

Last years ECPR tiering for seedings were (from the Pro14)
1. Leinster
2. Scarlets
3. Glasgow
4. Munster
5. Edinburgh
6. Cardiff
7. Ulster

League finishes were;
A
Glasgow 76
Munster 69
Cardiff 54

B
Leinster 70
Scarlets 70
Edinburgh 68
Ulster 62

Leinster beat Scarlets in the final.
Glasgow and Munster were knocked out in the semi.

Based on this, next years tiering will have Leinster at 1 (and Ireland 1 for Pro14) and Glasgow at 2 (and Scotland 1 for Pro14). This was the basis for the Pro14 seedings this season.

Nope, you're the one who's wrong here. Last two seasons conference seedings were done on 2017 after Munster topped the league and lost to Scarlets in the final.

And as Former Former said, EPCR rankings are not the same as Pro14 conference rankings.

Jump_In_Jack

Former Former wrote: »

I think you're getting mixed up. The EPCR seedings and Pro14 rankings are not necessarily the same. EPCR is based on positions after the knockouts, but no-one is sure if the Pro14 will do likewise.

The Pro14 conferences for this season were the same as the previous one. They kept the same pools for two seasons so Leinster winning the trophy in 2018 had no bearing on it. Leinster and Scarlets "should" have been kept apart this season as Ireland 1 and Wales 1 from 2017-18, but they were in the same pool because they were Ireland 2 and Wales 1 in 2016-17

The Pro14 is responsible for ranking the teams they put into the Heineken Cup.
Therefore the rankings are the same.

https://www.pro14rugby.org/2018/05/01/how-pro14-rugby-will-select-eighth-champions-cup-place-if-awarded-by-epcr/

Cookiemunster

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The Pro14 is responsible for ranking the teams they put into the Heineken Cup.
Therefore the rankings are the same.

https://www.pro14rugby.org/2018/05/01/how-pro14-rugby-will-select-eighth-champions-cup-place-if-awarded-by-epcr/

There's no mention in that link of how they decide their rankings. They use play off games to decide EPCR rankings, they use (or at least have said they use) league points to decide the conference rankings.