From the Pantibar!!!

soiseztomabel

22michael44 wrote: »

great response, the circle-jerkers should be thanking your post any second now.

Back on the attack eh?

wexie

Conservatory wrote: »

But the lads at the newspapers just go the gutter route every time.

Of course they do, they're making it as tasty for the general public as they can.

Newspapers don't make money from telling us about what happens in the world. They make money by selling advertising and the way to do that is to get as many hapless punters to buy them as they can. The way to do that is to make things sensational and to print the stuff the average punters wants to see or will get outraged about.

yabadabado

22michael44 wrote: »

great response, the circle-jerkers should be thanking your post any second now.

It's about all your post deserved.

You made a fool of yourself with the original post and just cant seem to get out of the mire.

22michael44

yabadabado wrote: »

It's about all your post deserved.

You made a fool of yourself with the original post and just cant seem to get out of the mire.

i made a fool of myself with a completely reasonable post. it's easy to say that when you know every knuckle-dragging edgelord on AH is going to agree with you regardless of the **** you're talking. the lack of self-awareness you people have is astonishing. one day you'll get it

22michael44

Deleted User wrote: »

Pot..... Kettle....

yeah! i know how to use empty-headed dog-whistle phrases too, how about that?

How Soon Is Now

22michael44 wrote: »

i made a fool of myself with a completely reasonable post. it's easy to say that when you know every knuckle-dragging edgelord on AH is going to agree with you regardless of the **** you're talking. the lack of self-awareness you people have is astonishing. one day you'll get it

One day we will get it lads don't worry. Lol.

22michael44

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

One day we will get it lads don't worry. Lol.

what up Morrissey, looking forward to the UK tour?

How Soon Is Now

22michael44 wrote: »

what up Morrissey, looking forward to the UK tour?

I don't even want to know how you feel about that situation ha!

22michael44

22michael44 wrote:

yeah! i know how to use empty-headed dog-whistle phrases too, how about that?

OK.... So anyway, I know you said you didn't have time on a Sunday to properly discuss privilege or answer my questions, but perhaps you'd just answer one.

Do you believe there should be quotas in colleges and the workplace to ensure equal orientation and gender representation?

22michael44

Deleted User wrote: »

OK.... So anyway, I know you said you didn't have time on a Sunday to properly discuss privilege or answer my questions, but perhaps you'd just answer one.

Do you believe there should be quotas in colleges and the workplace to ensure equal orientation and gender representation?

i don't believe there should be as a matter of course, no. like 50/50 or something? nah i don't think that's reasonable. initiatives encouraging underrepresented people, i'm all for though.

22michael44

22michael44 wrote:

i don't believe there should be as a matter of course, no. like 50/50 or something? nah i don't think that's reasonable. initiatives encouraging underrepresented people, i'm all for though.

Again, I'm almost sure I'm with you on this. Can you give me an example of a few initiatives you agree with?

Pac1Man

22michael44 wrote: »

i don't believe there should be as a matter of course, no. like 50/50 or something? nah i don't think that's reasonable. initiatives encouraging underrepresented people, i'm all for though.

How about treating all people like people and judge them on their individual merits rather than their skin colour? I thought that's what people were striving for 60 years ago?

We've gone backwards.

22michael44

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, I'm almost sure I'm with you on this. Can you give me an example of a few initiatives you agree with?

i mean i dunno...there's a lot of pressure being put on music festivals at the moment to have more women represented on their line-ups. and workshops to encourage female music producers are becoming more common. it's not a quota for the sake of a quota because there's a hell of a lot of great music made by female producers and the line-ups don't reflect this at all.

yabadabado

22michael44 wrote: »

i made a fool of myself with a completely reasonable post. it's easy to say that when you know every knuckle-dragging edgelord on AH is going to agree with you regardless of the **** you're talking. the lack of self-awareness you people have is astonishing. one day you'll get it

You people :eek:

I actually feel sorry for your lack of self awareness but I suppose you will just acccuse me of being a knuckle dragger.

I disagree with that. If women were selling albums and attracting crowds they'd be included on lineups. No promoter is thinking that they will exclude a female performer who'd bring them money in place of a lesser known/less popular male act. I think in this example, merit should win out. I've no problem encouraging female interaction or participation but if it's done at a cost of making it more expensive for a man, it's blatant sexism. Nothing is stopping women learning to produce. Its just that more men are drawn to that profession.

22michael44

yabadabado wrote: »

You people :eek:

I actually feel sorry for your lack of self awareness but I suppose you will just acccuse me of being a knuckle dragger.

haha didn't think anyone would take that obvious bait. well done you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0y_JnruypM

22michael44

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree with that. If women were selling albums and attracting crowds they'd be included on lineups. No promoter is thinking that they will exclude a female performer who'd bring them money in place of a lesser known/less popular male act. I think in this example, merit should win out. I've no problem encouraging female interaction or participation but if it's done at a cost of making it more expensive for a man, it's blatant sexism. Nothing is stopping women learning to produce. Its just that more men are drawn to that profession.

i can't say i'm surprised you disagree, the dunne.

soiseztomabel

22michael44 wrote: »

haha didn't think anyone would take that obvious bait. well done you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0y_JnruypM

Im so happy to be part of this thread...

When you show this to your mates how you valiantly gave up your Sunday to white knight against us you will get all the pussy (or dick, we don't discriminate) from some person who actually entertains your bull**** grandstanding and social posturing.

Well done my friend.

22michael44

soiseztomabel wrote: »

Im so happy to be part of this thread...

When you show this to your mates how you valiantly gave up your Sunday to white knight against us you will get all the pussy (or dick, we don't discriminate) from some person who actually entertains your bull**** grandstanding and social posturing.

Well done my friend.

i wish i had some friends to grandstand to, chief. that's not my game. just trying to talk people around a little, that's all. all in good spirit, i'm sure we all think we're right and nobody's intentionally being a wrongun.

22michael44

22michael44 wrote: »

i don't believe there should be as a matter of course, no. like 50/50 or something? nah i don't think that's reasonable. initiatives encouraging underrepresented people, i'm all for though.

Does it matter why they are underrepresented?

22michael44 wrote: »

i mean i dunno...there's a lot of pressure being put on music festivals at the moment to have more women represented on their line-ups. and workshops to encourage female music producers are becoming more common. it's not a quota for the sake of a quota because there's a hell of a lot of great music made by female producers and the line-ups don't reflect this at all.

I do find this interesting. About the gender difference in Music. How many solo vocalists are male vs female? I suspect there are probably more females as solo performers than males... although more bands with males than females...

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To an extent I see where you are coming from. But fire me over an example or two just to make sure we are singing off the same hymn sheet.

Privilege generally isn’t used to describe legal advantages but differences in experience.

Earlier in this thread someone noted that they see far more same sex couples holding hands after the referendum than before. I agree. There’s a marked difference.

Many gay couples I know are still wary of holding hands in public. Now whether you think it’s unlikely they’d be attacked/verbally abused/stared at is irrelevant. Most gay couples will at some point have to consider the risks involved. And for a LONG time the vast majority of gay couples have decided that a simple expression of affection that straight people take for granted is not worth it.

Most straight couples won’t have had an experience like this.

Calhoun

LLMMLL wrote: »

Privilege generally isn’t used to describe legal advantages but differences in experience.

Earlier in this thread someone noted that they see far more same sex couples holding hands after the referendum than before. I agree. There’s a marked difference.

Many gay couples I know are still wary of holding hands in public. Now whether you think it’s unlikely they’d be attacked/verbally abused/stared at is irrelevant. Most gay couples will at some point have to consider the risks involved. And for a LONG time the vast majority of gay couples have decided that a simple expression of affection that straight people take for granted is not worth it.

Most straight couples won’t have had an experience like this.

Will every gay couple now start going around asking all the straight couples to check their privilege? On all arguments of course, i think thats how they do it in the states, when arguing as one is perceived to not have had a hard enough life their opinions become null and void on all things.

LLMMLL

Calhoun wrote: »

Will every gay couple now start going around asking all the straight couples to check their privilege? On all arguments of course

No.

mariaalice

The other RTE one the makes me laugh RTE talking to someone about something happening in the UK, have a backdrop of the houses of parliament and big ben behind the speaker it's childish its like having a big pointy stick and saying this person is talking about the UK in case you didn't realise.

HappyAsLarE

22michael44 wrote: »

i mean i dunno...there's a lot of pressure being put on music festivals at the moment to have more women represented on their line-ups. and workshops to encourage female music producers are becoming more common. it's not a quota for the sake of a quota because there's a hell of a lot of great music made by female producers and the line-ups don't reflect this at all.

I seen this ‘issue’ addressed well in a news article recently. There has always been more male artists than women because men obsess more about music and are therefore more likely to succeed in making it.

This hasn’t stopped many many women being superstars in music. But to think that there is some malevolent force holding them back is just wrong and not helpful to women.

22michael44

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I seen this ‘issue’ addressed well in a news article recently. There has always been more male artists than women because men obsess more about music and are therefore more likely to succeed in making it.

This hasn’t stopped many many women being superstars in music. But to think that there is some malevolent force holding them back is just wrong and not helpful to women.

ah yes nothing like a news article to put a complicated issue to rest. men obsess more about music? sure about that? i think a lot of pop acts who sell out stadiums would beg to differ. 'malevolent force' is a deliberately silly term but there are systemic reasons why women feel like they're outsiders.

HappyAsLarE

22michael44 wrote: »

ah yes nothing like a news article to put a complicated issue to rest. men obsess more about music? sure about that? i think a lot of pop acts who sell out stadiums would beg to differ. 'malevolent force' is a deliberately silly term but there are systemic reasons why women feel like they're outsiders.

All these women going to stadiums should support women. Simple.

Obsess about goes beyond attending a gig.

Can you give an example of the systemic reasons? And how Beyonce tackled them.

22michael44

22michael44 wrote: »

ah yes nothing like a news article to put a complicated issue to rest. men obsess more about music? sure about that? i think a lot of pop acts who sell out stadiums would beg to differ.

'malevolent force' is a deliberately silly term but there are systemic reasons why women feel like they're outsiders.

This doesn't really make sense. Music is a consumer driven industry. If you have the talent, and the ability to match your music with what is desired by the consumer base (and companies), then you'll have more success. Obviously.

Now, if you look at markets and sales, female products or products/services orientated towards females, outsells male products by a rather large margin. Don't know much about music sales and concert tickets, but I'd guess it's probably pretty similar. (unless you have some stats to say otherwise?]

If they're not selling as well as the males, then they're not judging the market well. Oh, I've seen a variety of articles about the lower numbers of women in the industry, but they don't really talk about the reasons why. Instead, they're complaining about pure numbers, as if that suggests an unfairness.

It's like the "gender wage gap". If you simply look at the numbers, then it's easy to claim discrimination. However, once you look at the details and the reasons behind the figures, then the Gender pay gap is longer unfair.

I asked you earlier if it mattered why people were underrepresented... but you didn't answer. Perhaps consider it now?

wexie

Deleted User wrote: »

If they're not selling as well as the males, then they're not judging the market well. Oh, I've seen a variety of articles about the lower numbers of women in the industry, but they don't really talk about the reasons why. Instead, they're complaining about pure numbers, as if that suggests an unfairness.

Maybe I'm misreading it but this seems like a perfect example of the whole equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome debate.

22michael44

Deleted User wrote: »

This doesn't really make sense. Music is a consumer driven industry. If you have the talent, and the ability to match your music with what is desired by the consumer base (and companies), then you'll have more success. Obviously.

Now, if you look at markets and sales, female products or products/services orientated towards females, outsells male products by a rather large margin. Don't know much about music sales and concert tickets, but I'd guess it's probably pretty similar. (unless you have some stats to say otherwise?]

If they're not selling as well as the males, then they're not judging the market well. Oh, I've seen a variety of articles about the lower numbers of women in the industry, but they don't really talk about the reasons why. Instead, they're complaining about pure numbers, as if that suggests an unfairness.

It's like the "gender wage gap". If you simply look at the numbers, then it's easy to claim discrimination. However, once you look at the details and the reasons behind the figures, then the Gender pay gap is longer unfair.

I asked you earlier if it mattered why people were underrepresented... but you didn't answer. Perhaps consider it now?

As a music fan i can't think of anything more boring, more depressing even, than discussing it like it's a financial venture.
Most festivals i would have in mind will sell tickets on the basis of their reputation. It's not as if they're going to be in danger of going bankrupt if there's 6 less males on the line-up. Look at the Electric Picnic, it sells out before they even announce anyone. or it did up until recently.

Similarly, most of the music i would have in mind in terms of representation, it's really silly to apply stuff like 'judging the market well'. There is no market in the sense you're describing and i think we're both thinking of wildly different areas of music. the market is whether people go to see you DJing, gigging etc. If someone is good, people will go and see you. The problem is the systemic way that women find it more difficult to make those inroads. (eg, festival promoters being too lazy to book females who have shown they're talented and have a fanbase.)

wexie

22michael44 wrote: »

Most festivals i would have in mind will sell tickets on the basis of their reputation. It's not as if they're going to be in danger of going bankrupt if there's 6 less males on the line-up. Look at the Electric Picnic, it sells out before they even announce anyone. or it did up until recently.

Yes but that reputation has been earned over the course of the years. If they started booking relatively unknown (or not very good) female acts for the sake of having equality in the line up you can be guaranteed that would impact on that reputation.

wexie

wexie wrote: »

Maybe I'm misreading it but this seems like a perfect example of the whole equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome debate.

TBH I do think it's something more than that. Minorities get support in our modern society, and if you can claim that there is unfairness/discrimination then you will gain even more support.

Even if they were to introduce quotas and such into the production side of the music industry, if women aren't interested, there will remain an imbalance. Hence reinforcing the image of it being male dominated and women deserve more help for them to compete effectively.

If women simply aren't applying or competing (I understand that music is a very competitive industry) for these positions, then pushing for further benefits isn't going to change that, but it would make it easier for those already in the industry... Now, that's equality... :rolleyes:

22michael44

wexie wrote: »

Yes but that reputation has been earned over the course of the years. If they started booking relatively unknown (or not very good) female acts for the sake of having equality in the line up you can be guaranteed that would impact on that reputation.

They don't have to book anyone 'not very good'. The talent is there. Every festival has relative unknowns, that's the beauty of festivals. Who wants to go to a festival where you won't be surprised by someone you'd never heard before? Are there male relative unknowns on festival line-ups? of course there are, and chances they're mediocre ones too.

wexie

22michael44 wrote: »

They don't have to book anyone 'not very good'. The talent is there. Every festival has relative unknowns, that's the beauty of festivals. Who wants to go to a festival where you won't be surprised by someone you'd never heard before? Are there male relative unknowns on festival line-ups? of course there are, and chances they're mediocre ones too.

Hmmmyeah, I should probably have phrased that differently.

What I meant was that a festival builds a reputation by booking acts that the public want to see (even if they didn't know it yet). If they stop doing that then of course it will have an effect of future ticket sales.

I honestly don't know whether or not there is much prejudice involved in booking acts but I would have thought that of all the industries out there music (when it comes to performers anyways) would be less affected than many others.

With regards to quota's I think they end up being counter productive in many cases and just cause hassle. Was chatting to a friend over the weekend who is a hiring manager in a tech firm. This firm has a gender quota. One of the requirements for the job is to have a degree in computers science and be able to program Java.

So every time he has an opening his recruiters come to him to tell him they can't find any suitable female candidates (or not enough anyways). but....quota....

So he ends up having to take a day to interview candidates he already knows he can't hire because they won't be able to do the job. Then he needs to make a business case that he can't find suitable female candidates, this has to make it's way up the chain. So that eventually he can hold interviews where the requirement simply is to find a suitable candidate....

22michael44

22michael44 wrote: »

As a music fan i can't think of anything more boring than discussing it like it's a financial venture.

Except we're not talking about Music... and I am a music fan too. Although, I lean towards Soul/Jazz vocalists, and oddly enough female artists are extremely well represented there.

But in any case, we are talking about the Music industry and employment... not the music itself.

Most festivals i would have in mind will sell tickets on the basis of their reputation. It's not as if they're going to be in danger of going bankrupt if there's 6 less males on the line-up. Look at the Electric Picnic, it sells out before they even announce anyone. or it did up until recently.

But why should they? I mean... why should there be 6 less males at the venue? How are they engaging in discrimination or excluding females from becoming music artists with their own following?

Similarly, most of the music i would have in mind in terms of representation, it's really silly to apply stuff like 'judging the market well'. There is no market in the sense you're describing and i think we're both thinking of wildly different areas of music. the market is whether people go to see you DJing, gigging etc. If someone is good, people will go and see you. The problem is the systemic way that women find it more difficult to make those inroads. (eg, festival promoters being too lazy to book females who have shown they're talented and have a fanbase.)

You're being rather selective with your music selections. I've been talking about the music industry in general as opposed to talking about specific genres....

You made the point that women were underrepresented in the music industry. Not in specific festivals or niche genres, but the music industry. So... argue your point.

EDIT: Once again, though... have you considered why women are underrepresented?

22michael44

Deleted User wrote: »

Except we're not talking about Music... and I am a music fan too. Although, I lean towards Soul/Jazz vocalists, and oddly enough female artists are extremely well represented there.

But in any case, we are talking about the Music industry and employment... not the music itself.



But why should they? I mean... why should there be 6 less males at the venue? How are they engaging in discrimination or excluding females from becoming music artists with their own following?



You're being rather selective with your music selections. I've been talking about the music industry in general as opposed to talking about specific genres....

You made the point that women were underrepresented in the music industry. Not in specific festivals or niche genres, but the music industry. So... argue your point.

EDIT: Once again, though... have you considered why women are underrepresented?

I don't know why you keep asking me that. I've suggested a few reasons why they're underrepresented. Presumably i haven't suggested the reason you're hinting at?

i don't think i mentioned the word industry. My first post on this, if i recall, cited festival line-ups as an issue, and also mentioned initiatives to make them more representative. to the extent that festivals are part of the music industry, then that's where we seem to be intersecting.

22michael44

22michael44 wrote: »

I don't know why you keep asking me that. I've suggested a few reasons why they're underrepresented. Presumably i haven't suggested the reason you're hinting at?

Why? Because you haven't addressed it.

So far, you have made one comment which could possibly relate to it:

" The problem is the systemic way that women find it more difficult to make those inroads. (eg, festival promoters being too lazy to book females who have shown they're talented and have a fanbase.)"

i don't think i mentioned the word industry. My first post on this, if i recall, cited festival line-ups as an issue, and also mentioned initiatives to make them more representative. to the extent that festivals are part of the music industry, then that's where we seem to be intersecting.

Music festivals, and music producers. Production being part of the music industry. But ok, this isn't about the music industry, just festivals? No problem.

22michael44

Deleted User wrote: »

Why? Because you haven't addressed it.

So far, you have made one comment which could possibly relate to it:

" The problem is the systemic way that women find it more difficult to make those inroads. (eg, festival promoters being too lazy to book females who have shown they're talented and have a fanbase.)"



Music festivals, and music producers. Production being part of the music industry. But ok, this isn't about the music industry, just festivals? No problem.

sigh, i don't really know what to say to you other than repeating this bit: ""There is no market in the sense you're describing and i think we're both thinking of wildly different areas of music. the market is whether people go to see you DJing, gigging etc. If someone is good, people will go and see you.""

you're just splitting hairs and i find it irritating. it's clear what i'm talking about, it's got nothing to do with men in suits deciding to push something on the basis of 'judging the market'. At that level you're talking ghostwriters, manufactured images etc. i'm talking about people trying to get their name and music out there, independent artists or producers making their own music, playing the festival circuit etc


why don't you tell me why you think they're underrepresented? i know you're dying to.

here's a few (other) reasons why i think

- it's not encouraged enough from an early age
- it's a male-dominated practice and so can feel like a boys club
- go onto any Boiler Room YT video featuring a female producer and read the comments, now imagine those attitudes when you're just starting out, from promoters or sound engineers, chipping away at you until you decide it's hopeless
- related to dance music specifically, some clubs are notoriously bad for harassment, which likely pushes women away from these spheres.

The main thing is people's experiences. I've read enough first-hand accounts to believe people that there's an issue. maybe some people would call that playing the victim, and say you should push past it if you really want to succeed. i think it's worth addressing.

it's not a black and white issue, there are also completely fair reasons why more men gravitate towards music. But it's worth addressing the disparities

HappyAsLarE

Women aren’t as interested in making music. It’s that simple. When they are interested, you get mega stars like Madonna, Cher, list goes on of all the defiant ones.

My own industry of a Engineering has been accused of keeping women out. It’s the exact same thing - we excel at things that we have an interest in.

22michael44

22michael44 wrote: »

sigh, i don't really know what to say to you other than repeating this bit: ""There is no market in the sense you're describing and i think we're both thinking of wildly different areas of music. the market is whether people go to see you DJing, gigging etc. If someone is good, people will go and see you.""

Ok. Lets clear the air a bit, because perhaps I have misunderstood you, considering the previous discussion to this music example.

Women are underrepresented in Music festivals... but not due to discrimination. Yes? And you feel that women should be given a boost, because you feel that there aren't enough women in the line-ups?

you're just splitting hairs and i find it irritating. it's clear what i'm talking about, it's got nothing to do with men in suits deciding to push something on the basis of 'judging the market'. At that level you're talking ghostwriters, manufactured images etc. i'm talking about people trying to get their name and music out there, independent artists or producers making their own music, playing the festival circuit etc

well, no... cause as you suggested on a different issue, I went and did some reading.. and the vast majority of articles on this subject were about the lack of women as artists, songwriters, but also in the backend areas, such as production. Stood to reason you were talking about the same. Still. I get it now.

why don't you tell me why you think they're underrepresented? i know you're dying to.

Nope. You introduced the example... music festivals. I didn't.

And yes I just snipped the list (but I did read it, thanks)

The main thing is people's experiences. I've read enough first-hand accounts to believe people that there's an issue. maybe some people would call that playing the victim, and say you should push past it if you really want to succeed. i think it's worth addressing.

it's not a black and white issue, there are also completely fair reasons why more men gravitate towards music. But it's worth addressing the disparities

Ok. Difference of opinion. I call that competition... and music trends.

22michael44

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Women aren’t as interested in making music. It’s that simple. When they are interested, you get mega stars like Madonna, Cher, list goes on of all the defiant ones.

My own industry of a Engineering has been accused of keeping women out. It’s the exact same thing - we excel at things that we have an interest in.

that's a pretty sweeping statement and an obviously false one. edit:didn't see the 'as' in 'as interested'

22michael44

22michael44 wrote:

that's a pretty sweeping statement and an obviously false one. why bother, eh? thought i was having a reasonable discussion with someone who thanked it too. i give up

It's not a sweeping statement. Its an accurate one. Both men and women have the same opportunity to make music. More men seem to do it. There is no conspiracy to keep women down.

Women actually are over represented in certain genres and underrepresented in others but each metric would be indicative of how many people want to buy that music. If there was more money to be made by selling tickets to a womans show than a man's, the promoter would do so. Its just supply and demand.