Wolves in France

John_Rambo

Eddie B wrote: »

Yes, but what is the purpose of the raptor re-introduction? Apart from the fact that they are are appealing to us humans, what benefit do they bring to our ecosystem? Would the money used for re-introduction in this country not be more beneficial if it were used on habitat revival, which would help the wildlife we have here, especially those in danger because of habitat loss, and modern farming practices?

Both re-introduction and habitat revival should be concentrated on.

Help!!!!

Just do what they did in Wales, have them in an enclosed sanctuary.

https://www.wolfwatch.uk/

Eddie B

Help!!!! wrote: »

Just do what they did in Wales, have them in an enclosed sanctuary.

https://www.wolfwatch.uk/

Bit like a zoo really.

Help!!!!

Eddie B wrote: »

Bit like a zoo really.

100 acres for a pack of wolves to roam isn't really like a zoo, not while theres deer roaming within the fence as well.
No one will ever let them roam free on our island so this would be the next best thing

Half-cocked

Help!!!! wrote: »

100 acres for a pack of wolves to roam isn't really like a zoo, not while theres deer roaming within the fence as well.
No one will ever let them roam free on our island so this would be the next best thing

100 acres sounds a lot, but apparently in the wild the average core territory size for a wolf pack is 35 km2. So it might seem like a zoo from the wolf's perspective!

Help!!!!

Half-cocked wrote: »

100 acres sounds a lot, but apparently in the wild the average core territory size for a wolf pack is 35 km2. So it might seem like a zoo from the wolf's perspective!

Yeah for sure it would be better if it was a larger area but its better than nothing. They only have a small number of wolves at a time there as well. Its the only way we would have wolves back in Ireland.

Eddie B

Half-cocked wrote: »

100 acres sounds a lot, but apparently in the wild the average core territory size for a wolf pack is 35 km2. So it might seem like a zoo from the wolf's perspective!

True, and over 30 wolves in that 100 acres. Also, what if that fence is breached accidentally or deliberately. You'd have wolves roaming the British countryside. Bad enough, with all these big cats running amuck, all over the UK lol

John_Rambo

Eddie B wrote: »

True, and over 30 wolves in that 100 acres. Also, what if that fence is breached accidentally or deliberately. You'd have wolves roaming the British countryside. Bad enough, with all these big cats running amuck, all over the UK lol

There'll be just as many people killed by the wolves as there are by the cats!

Eddie B

Half-cocked wrote: »

100 acres sounds a lot, but apparently in the wild the average core territory size for a wolf pack is 35 km2. So it might seem like a zoo from the wolf's perspective!

John_Rambo wrote: »

There'll be just as many people killed by the wolves as there are by the cats!

Lol! Well thats true

Eddie B

Help!!!! wrote: »

Yeah for sure it would be better if it was a larger area but its better than nothing. They only have a small number of wolves at a time there as well. Its the only way we would have wolves back in Ireland.

Yes, and that is why we're better off having none.

Help!!!!

Eddie B wrote: »

True, and over 30 wolves in that 100 acres. Also, what if that fence is breached accidentally or deliberately. You'd have wolves roaming the British countryside. Bad enough, with all these big cats running amuck, all over the UK lol

30 wolves since 1993 have lived there & been moved back to the wild. They only let a small amount be there at anyone time. No escapes or locals being killed in all that time. They must be doing something right

Eddie B

Help!!!! wrote: »

30 wolves since 1993 have lived there & been moved back to the wild. They only let a small amount be there at anyone time. No escapes or locals being killed in all that time. They must be doing something right

Sorry if I misread that. If that's the case, it is at least serving some purpose

Help!!!!

Eddie B wrote: »

Sorry if I misread that. If that's the case, it is at least serving some purpose

Yeah they take wolves that have been mistreated/kept in zoo's etc & look after them at the sanctuary until they can be released back into the wild.
Something like that would be better than having a zoo

Eddie B

Help!!!! wrote: »

Yeah they take wolves that have been mistreated/kept in zoo's etc & look after them at the sanctuary until they can be released back into the wild.
Something like that would be better than having a zoo

It certainly would

solarwinds

The most important thing they are doing right is they are not doing it in ireland, our lot couldnt run an ice cream van on a beach without having at least 17 depts. having an input all taking no responsibility and then getting one of their nephews to build it badly for 5 times the going rate. No thank you and as for the green party here i have about as much respect for them as they do for nature. The stunt they tried to pull before they were kicked to the kerb in stealth would have destroyed any outdoor sports in this country all for the sake of what their own egos and idealistic bubble view of the world.
Good riddence.

Kat1170

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Pentagon war gamed a global Zombie apocalypse once too. Granted it is even less likely as a rabies outbreak here,as well as being coincidently happening on Halloween..,but the fact that they did it shows that they don't consider it 100% impossible either.So why should we not consider the impossibility of being possible?





yes ,most of us call it "work experiance":) ,or "further education" So we have a vet in France looking after a possible rabid dog?Ok,what happens when he comes home?If this was so miniscule a chance of occurrence,why do we have somone in France on the taxpayers dime learning about it?

So which is it you want again ????

grassroot1

John_Rambo wrote: »

It's not. We've done it here in Ireland with the raptor re-intoduction program and it's been a success.

For the raptors yes other wildlife not so successful.

John_Rambo

grassroot1 wrote: »

For the raptors yes other wildlife not so successful.

Not really sure what you're trying to say here. Not very clear.

Not sure if you've all seen this, but it's an amazing insight how an area can suffer when it looses a top predator. and how the eco system is improved when it's re-introduced.

https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem

grassroot1

Where one apex predator is succeeded by another reintroduction of the former predator simply increase the survival pressure on prey species

The wolves in Yellowstone are controlled by there inability to hunt as successfully in Summer in comparison to Winter (litter survival rates)
Yellowstone is as near as possible as it gets to unspoilt wilderness. Something that is almost non existent in western Europe

John_Rambo

grassroot1 wrote: »

Where one apex predator is succeeded by another reintroduction of the former predator simply increase the survival pressure on prey species

Where did this happen?

grassroot1 wrote: »

The wolves in Yellowstone are controlled by there inability to hunt as successfully in Summer in comparison to Winter (litter survival rates)
Yellowstone is as near as possible as it gets to unspoilt wilderness. Something that is almost non existent in western Europe

Yet the American government predator control programs eliminated them in the early 19 hundreds! Very successful re-introction program. Nobody can deny that.

Birdnuts

grassroot1 wrote: »

Where one apex predator is succeeded by another reintroduction of the former predator simply increase the survival pressure on prey species

The wolves in Yellowstone are controlled by there inability to hunt as successfully in Summer in comparison to Winter (litter survival rates)
Yellowstone is as near as possible as it gets to unspoilt wilderness. Something that is almost non existent in western Europe

Top predators typically cull the weak, sickly etc. prey individuals. One of the reasons why Red Deer and other large game in Eastern Europe are far more impressive in terms of weight etc. compared to these islands. I don't see deer or wild boar populations declining in these areas or in the parts of Western Europe where wolves have returned. Indeed the likes of Wild Boar and many species of deer have are near historic highs in much of their Western European . Top predators are a vital part of all ecosystems - removing them causes all sorts of problems further down the foodchain eg. They are bringing backs wolves to Isle Royal in Lake Superior after disease killed off the wolves causing the Moose population to go out of control and destroy most of the vegetation on the island.Same with Sea-otters in California - when the fur trade nearly wiped them out, the population of Sea Urchins went out of control and destroyed the Kelp beds which hit local fish populations hard. Now that there are protected and recovering, the Kelp beds are starting to come back

Birdnuts

John_Rambo wrote: »

Yet the American government predator control programs eliminated them in the early 19 hundreds! Very successful re-introction program. Nobody can deny that.

I was reading about this recently - they dropped the wolf population from 2 million in 1700 to a few hundred by WW1. Did similar damage to bear and puma. It wasn't just predators though, the state sanctioned war against nature extended to everything from Prairie Dogs to Bison and so many other crimes against the continents natural heritage and the native peoples:(

grassroot1

John_Rambo wrote: »

Where did this happen?
When man removed them


Yet the American government predator control programs eliminated them in the early 19 hundreds! Very successful re-introction program. Nobody can deny that.

I am not denying it I am agreeing with you that it worked in Yellowstone an unspoilt wilderness where mans impact is minimal

grassroot1

Birdnuts wrote: »

Top predators typically cull the weak, sickly etc. prey individuals. One of the reasons why Red Deer and other large game in Eastern Europe are far more impressive in terms of weight etc. compared to these islands. I don't see deer or wild boar populations declining in these areas or in the parts of Western Europe where wolves have returned. Indeed the likes of Wild Boar and many species of deer have are near historic highs in much of their Western European . Top predators are a vital part of all ecosystems - removing them causes all sorts of problems further down the foodchain eg. They are bringing backs wolves to Isle Royal in Lake Superior after disease killed off the wolves causing the Moose population to go out of control and destroy most of the vegetation on the island.Same with Sea-otters in California - when the fur trade nearly wiped them out, the population of Sea Urchins went out of control and destroyed the Kelp beds which hit local fish populations hard. Now that there are protected and recovering, the Kelp beds are starting to come back

Apex predators cull their competition. Apex predators are a sign of a healthy ecosystem but simply re introducing them does not mean you have a healthy ecosystem.
In short when a species is removed from an ecosystem another species will take advantage and the niche is possibly lost for ever.

prinzeugen

Were wolves reintroduced though?

I remember reading an article years ago about how the inner German border kept Western Europe almost rabies free, but when the wall came down, wild animals were free to roam further west than they could since 1952.

Wild species started appearing in West Germany in for the first time in 50 odd years.

IIRC there was panic in a village in Belgium when wolves were spotted for the first time in 70-80 years.

John_Rambo

grassroot1 wrote: »

Apex predators cull their competition. Apex predators are a sign of a healthy ecosystem but simply re introducing them does not mean you have a healthy ecosystem.
In short when a species is removed from an ecosystem another species will take advantage and the niche is possibly lost for ever.

I believe the rise of the pine martin is rejuvenating the red squirrel population in Ireland. They're killing the greys and unable to reach and kill the lighter reds in the canopies, thus leaving the natural feed spoils to the indigenous red, an exact opposite reaction to what you propose when you say one apex predator is succeeded by another reintroduction of the former predator simply increase the survival pressure on prey species.

Can you find any examples of the above quoted scenario?

I can't.

Birdnuts

grassroot1 wrote: »

Apex predators cull their competition. Apex predators are a sign of a healthy ecosystem but simply re introducing them does not mean you have a healthy ecosystem.
In short when a species is removed from an ecosystem another species will take advantage and the niche is possibly lost for ever.

I don't doubt that - obviously habitat, prey base etc. must be there first, but assuming those elements get sorted, then it can and has proven to be a success in many cases. Another example I just thought of now is the decline of large sharks from overfishing etc. is damaging coral reefs in many tropical areas as certain species of fish that graze on coral are over populating some areas and putting pressure on many coral species

Birdnuts

prinzeugen wrote: »

Were wolves reintroduced though?

I remember reading an article years ago about how the inner German border kept Western Europe almost rabies free, but when the wall came down, wild animals were free to roam further west than they could since 1952.

Wild species started appearing in West Germany in for the first time in 50 odd years.

IIRC there was panic in a village in Belgium when wolves were spotted for the first time in 70-80 years.

No - not in Europe, they spread back naturally after protection. Also the booming prey base in Western Europe of wild boar, deer etc. helped too. As for panic, tis understandable as there is alot of wolf "myths" out there but after a while life will just get back to normal, as is the case in communities where the wolf survived into modern times like Italy and Spain. Indeed a pack wolves was recently proved to be breeding in the Rome suburbs, this was only discovered by camera trap data which shows just how "under the radar" they can be

https://inhabitat.com/wolves-return-to-romes-periphery-for-the-first-time-in-100-years/

prinzeugen

Thats what I thought. I think the former DDR kill zone is now a animal highway from North to South in places.

I am still trying to find the tv piece about how the fall of the Berlin wall affected wildlife.

grassroot1

John_Rambo wrote: »

I believe the rise of the pine martin is rejuvenating the red squirrel population in Ireland. They're killing the greys and unable to reach and kill the lighter reds in the canopies, thus leaving the natural feed spoils to the indigenous red, an exact opposite reaction to what you propose when you say one apex predator is succeeded by another reintroduction of the former predator simply increase the survival pressure on prey species.

Can you find any examples of the above quoted scenario?

I can't.

Yes as before when I told you man removed the raptor bird species.
You only have one apex predator in your example.

I find the pine martin grey squirrel situation interesting.
Why would a species that previously would have predated on red squirrel switch to grey squirrel a species it would never have encountered when it(the pine martin) was more numerous.
What other species has the pine martin started to predate upon I have only seen reference to grey squirrel,are there any others.
What triggered the sudden explosion in the number of sightings and the increase in range of the pine martin?
They seem to be increasing in areas where grey squirrel are not as numerous. What is there prey of choice in these areas?

Eddie B

grassroot1 wrote: »

Yes as before when I told you man removed the raptor bird species.
You only have one apex predator in your example.

I find the pine martin grey squirrel situation interesting.
Why would a species that previously would have predated on red squirrel switch to grey squirrel a species it would never have encountered when it(the pine martin) was more numerous.
What other species has the pine martin started to predate upon I have only seen reference to grey squirrel,are there any others.
What triggered the sudden explosion in the number of sightings and the increase in range of the pine martin?
They seem to be increasing in areas where grey squirrel are not as numerous. What is there prey of choice in these areas?

This s my take on it. Marten numbers have increased due to both large increase of plantations and a release program done on the hush hush. The whole (pine marten only eat grey squirrel) scenario, is being pushed by body's like The Vincent Wildlife Trust, who dont want any negativity seen towards our native predators. Not saying there is no truth o the claim, because there is obviously evidence to prove they do indeed take greys.

So yes, maybe greys are easier catch. Probably so. I feel most are caught on the ground or indeed in their drey's at night. Pine Marten aint gonna run around after them n tree's jumping from branch to branch, when they can catch easier prey on the ground.

So what else do they prey on? Rats, mice, frogs, ground nesting birds, roosting birds at night, rabbits, raid birds nests, penned fowl, and of course red squirrels.

So yes, they seem to be doing a job on the Grey's. Some area's the greys have vanished, So thats a good thing. Thing is, where the greys have gone, (or were never present), there presence no longer shows a positive, but more so a negative effect.

John_Rambo

grassroot1 wrote: »

Yes as before when I told you man removed the raptor bird species.
You only have one apex predator in your example

Are you still trying to say indinious wildlife reintroduction programs aren't a good thing? Do you have any links? I honestly can't find any examples of what you're talking about.

Grizzly 45

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-04-30/wolf-attack-kills-more-than-40-sheep-in-germany

https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/05/12/a-growing-wolf-population-presents-german-politicians-with-a-conundrum

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/return-of-the-wolf-haunts-spanish-farmers-1.2053251

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10572271/Italian-farmers-fight-back-against-wolves.html

Studies
www.iop.krakow.pl/karpaty/public/.../W_Smietana_Bystre_23-24_04_2008.pdf

http://www.zbs.bialowieza.pl/g2/pdf/1499.pdf

http://www.regione.piemonte.it/agri/area_tecnico_scientifica/osserv_faun/dwd/convegni/abstract_book.pdf

John_Rambo

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-04-30/wolf-attack-kills-more-than-40-sheep-in-germany

https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/05/12/a-growing-wolf-population-presents-german-politicians-with-a-conundrum

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/return-of-the-wolf-haunts-spanish-farmers-1.2053251

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10572271/Italian-farmers-fight-back-against-wolves.html

Studies
www.iop.krakow.pl/karpaty/public/.../W_Smietana_Bystre_23-24_04_2008.pdf

http://www.zbs.bialowieza.pl/g2/pdf/1499.pdf

http://www.regione.piemonte.it/agri/area_tecnico_scientifica/osserv_faun/dwd/convegni/abstract_book.pdf

Cheers, so no evidence that where one apex predator is succeeded by another reintroduction of the former predator simply increase the survival pressure on prey species then.

grassroot1

No your quite right there are no studies done but then why would there be those re introducing species are not going to study any negative effects of there release.
It logical that more predators increase the pressure on prey species but logic does not count I suppose.

John_Rambo

grassroot1 wrote: »

No your quite right there are no studies done but then why would there be those re introducing species are not going to study any negative effects of there release.
It logical that more predators increase the pressure on prey species but logic does not count I suppose.

It does increase pressure on prey species, but not detrimentally to the overall health of the spcies or the eco system.

dodderangler

grassroot1 wrote: »

For the raptors yes other wildlife not so successful.

Raptors like kites and buzzards were only extinct in 1900s so they were ok. Reintroducing wolves that have been gone 400 years is a no no. Country has changed so much since then they wouldn't last. Within a month we'd be culling them. We haven't got the forestry anyway for them. They'd be a menace to livestock owners immediately. Then we'd have animal rights from all over screaming at us. Etc etc etc

dodderangler

The only benefit I'd see if them being introduced again is they'd drop the fox numbers and the sims which apparently are in dyer need of a cull even though plenty of lads are screaming to hunt them and not getting a licence for it.
People say aswell that they'll attack people etc. Wolves are more often easily scared by humans and will run. A rogue or sick wolf may attack but same applies to a dog aswell. You'd be more likely attacked by a jack russel than a wolf.
Also what species of wolf would they be?? Surely it wouldn't be the Canadian grey/timbers? They're a lot bigger than your average European wolf. And a lot more aggressive and brave! And a lot smarter!

John_Rambo

Again, nobody on this thread is advocating the reintroduction of wolves in Ireland today. That was an April fools joke that people on this thread aren't grasping.

Ireland has the lowest forest cover in Europe. That's bad news for any form of hunting, be them human or non-human hunters. So, as dodderangler says, and he/she is right, sadly, any reintroduction of wolves, even the timid European wolf is a no-no, it would be an unsuitable, sad, barren & unfriendly landscape for them.

A slight chance of experimentation in Kerry could be softly muted in a few decades time, but, I can see serious local opposition certainly in my lifetime.

Maybe in my grandkids will see a small pack introduced to balance things up.

dodderangler

John_Rambo wrote: »

Again, nobody on this thread is advocating the reintroduction of wolves in Ireland today. That was an April fools joke that people on this thread aren't grasping.

Ireland has the lowest forest cover in Europe. That's bad news for any form of hunting, be them human or non-human hunters. So, as dodderangler says, and he/she is right, sadly, any reintroduction of wolves, even the timid European wolf is a no-no, it would be an unsuitable, sad, barren & unfriendly landscape for them.

A slight chance of experimentation in Kerry could be softly muted in a few decades time, but, I can see serious local opposition certainly in my lifetime.

Maybe in my grandkids will see a small pack introduced to balance things up.

Kerry? They'd wipe out the reds

John_Rambo

dodderangler wrote: »

Kerry? They'd wipe out the reds

Imagine they targeted the silkas first and reduced the weak reds, forcing the healthy red population upland out of harms way?

dodderangler

John_Rambo wrote: »

Would they not target the silka first and force the reds upland out of harms way?

Doubt it. If they're Canadian grey timber wolves they'll always go for the bigger prey.

John_Rambo

dodderangler wrote: »

Doubt it. If they're Canadian grey timber wolves they'll always go for the bigger prey.

Sorry, I edited my post whilst you were quoting me.

But nobody mentioned introducing non-indigionous Canadian grey wolves. Again, we're talking about the European wolf. From Europe. In Europe. A long time from now. And no wolf will go for bigger, stronger prey that will do more damage when there's more vulnerable smaller prey available.

laoch na mona

grassroot1 wrote: »

No your quite right there are no studies done but then why would there be those re introducing species are not going to study any negative effects of there release.
It logical that more predators increase the pressure on prey species but logic does not count I suppose.

actually scientists like to study everything to get accurate data on environmental impact,

Grizzly 45

John_Rambo wrote: »

Imagine they targeted the silkas first and reduced the weak reds, forcing the healthy red population upland out of harms way?

There is a very intelligent[more or less] apex predator who could do this too without causing lots of trouble.He is called a human hunter.:)

Apiarist

There are more that 2000 wolves in Belarus, compared to 360 in France. However, I do not recall any reports of wolves attacking people, there may be an incident with a hunter hunting a wolf at worst. The most dangerous wild animal in Belarusian forests is a wild pig. If you encounter a wild piglet, do not try to pet it and climb the first tree you can find, or risk its mother tear you to pieces.

Eddie B

laoch na mona wrote: »

actually scientists like to study everything to get accurate data on environmental impact,

The Vincent Wildlife Trust has said that experts have found that the Irish pine marten are practically vegitarian. How accurate is this information?:rolleyes:

John_Rambo

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is a very intelligent[more or less] apex predator who could do this too without causing lots of trouble.He is called a human hunter.

Ha! Well played Grizzly!

Eddie B wrote: »

The Vincent Wildlife Trust has said that experts have found that the Irish pine marten are practically vegitarian. How accurate is this information?:rolleyes:

I doubt that's true. Do you have a link?

Eddie B

John_Rambo wrote: »

Ha! Well played Grizzly!






I doubt that's true. Do you have a link?

https://iwt.ie/citizen-scientists-laois-bust-myths/

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/could-pine-martens-be-mostly-vegetarian-research-suggests-so-35179527.html

John_Rambo

Eddie B wrote: »

https://iwt.ie/citizen-scientists-laois-bust-myths/

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/could-pine-martens-be-mostly-vegetarian-research-suggests-so-35179527.html

Thought as much. Neither of them claim the Pine Martin is vegetarian. They both say the pine martin mainly eats nuts, berries, veg etc... but is certainly not a veggie.