Totally out of my depth with my 3.5 year old

Baby4

This post has been deleted.

Squatter

Is she an only child?

NIMAN

Do you spoil her?

Does she get a lot of TV and screen time?

Does she have many friends over for play dates or go to visit other kids?

BorneTobyWilde

Follow through on things, you never follow through. It's not easy, but show that there are consequences

Baby4

This post has been deleted.

Conservatory

I’ve had a moment like this with all my children around that age maybe a year older. All boys. I found putting them to bed for the day after school and only having them down for meals straightened them out instantly. I know some activist will be along now to tell me my methods are reprehensible but this is what happened to all children before child rearing hippies invaded the place.
Make sure to explain in a calm manner what was going on and why this was happening. Then stay firm.
Of course they could have some form of difference that needs help but with a good explanation to why they were going to bed will make sure it doesn’t harm them.

They can then lie there bored and think about why they are in this predicament.

Is there other issues at home like a lot of shouting and stuff, kids pick up on this some times and act the same way. I’m not suggesting abusing them or anything but alot of people need to learn the tools of calm discussion rather than shouting. I see it in apprentices all the time when they start working with me when they can’t have a disagreement in work without trying to use their stature or toughness to threaten the other fella to submission. I find these lads were raised in a house where mammy and daddy didn’t explain reasons for rules but just enforced them with loudness and animation.

I’m not saying I’m completely innocent of losing the head the odd time I have 4 boys and sometimes you leave them alone for five minutes and find a kitchen caked in mash potato and halfway into a rant you have to stop yourself and explain how much of a hassle it is for you to clean mash potato and the world would be a better place if everybody treated everybody with respect yards yadda.
They are in the most part the most well mannered children and I find most of the new age mumsnet type parents have the worst behaved socially awkward kids eating carrots for snacks.

I hope that was helpful and I hope you don’t think I’m accusing you of anything. Goodluck and Godspeed.

Silent Running

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Follow through on things, you never follow through. It's not easy, but show that there are consequences

Exactly what I was about to post. Set boundaries and have consequences for overstepping them. You and hubby need to be on the same page, no mixed messages. If you fail to follow through on the consequences, you send a message that they're not really set in stone. Cracks will be exploited.

evolving_doors

we’ve tried giving her choices when she refuses to do something,

Anticipate the problem then give the choice first.

E.g. going by the above... if she refused to go to bed you offer her choices.

Instead offer a choice a little bit before bed time like. ' Do you want your pink or green pyjamas?'. In this way its planted the action of going into bed into her brain without her knowing it.

It looks like conflict is her way of getting attention... and she's getting it in spades. Gotta look for opportunities to praise for positive actions. Colouring, cooking, dancing, running, hitting a ball... the trick is to praise for genuine achievement not for the sake of it.

That might all change when she goes to primary school!

How would she play with other kids in small groups? Stressed if she doesn't control the games or outcomes?

wexie

We had one of those (sometimes still do, she's 8 now) and we put in a lot of effort to teach her about choices. ie: 'if you do this, negative consequence A will happen, if you don't do this positive consequence B will happen.... this is how it is....you choose which you want to happen.'

But be consequent, follow through, without any drama, you've explained what will happen so just give them the choice. But be firm (and nice) in following through.
Ideally playschool should follow this approach as well.

All of this of course on the assumption that the behaviour is actually a choice, ie. she does know how to behave and what behaviour is acceptable. If she can be bribed into behaving then she knows how to behave. (you're likely the best judge of that yourselves).

If you're genuinely concerned about her being 'on the spectrum' then get her assessed privately if it's at all an option. A years waiting list isn't really good enough.

Victor

Have you considered parenting classes? Perhaps as much for the grandparents as for you.

volchitsa

evolving_doors wrote: »

Anticipate the problem then give the choice first.

E.g. going by the above... if she refused to go to bed you offer her choices.

Instead offer a choice a little bit before bed time like. ' Do you want your pink or green pyjamas?'. In this way its planted the action of going into bed into her brain without her knowing it.

It looks like conflict is her way of getting attention... and she's getting it in spades. Gotta look for opportunities to praise for positive actions. Colouring, cooking, dancing, running, hitting a ball... the trick is to praise for genuine achievement not for the sake of it.

That might all change when she goes to primary school!

How would she play with other kids in small groups? Stressed if she doesn't control the games or outcomes?

Basically the above, in bold. First off some children just are harder than others I think, but the parents' way of dealing with it can make all the difference in how things then develop.

My eldest was very difficult, there was a lot of conflict with him as a toddler, but he's turned out absolutely great, people often tell us how polite and well behaved he is.

When his brother came along (third child) in some ways he had quite a similar personality, but there was just no conflict, and I really think the reason was my o/h and I had learned how to head the conflict off beforehand.

But don't forget that these things go by periods, if you can get a handle on it now, things will settle down - it's not forever, even if it feels like it now!

Good luck. It's not easy being a parent sometimes.

Flippyfloppy

When my child was a similar age they were so difficult. They completely turned a corner when I began to offer choices about the most innocuous of things. They were just simple little choices like ‘do you want to get dressed here, or over there’ and it made all the difference.

We had been through following through on consequences, and while we still do follow through, we found solely using that method would turn into a huge battle of wills, and have our child be in bad form continuously.

Turns out he is a strong willed child who just wanted to have control over some parts of his day, making him more agreeable toward other things. I’m not sure this will apply in your situation but I hope it might help!

wexie

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Turns out he is a strong willed child who just wanted to have control over some parts of his day, making him more agreeable toward other things. I’m not sure this will apply in your situation but I hope it might help!

Our daughter is like this and ya know what, that's perfectly fine it'll stand to her in years to come. And it's usually just little things to make her feel like she has some manner of control.

We just pick our battles now and let her have little victories and it's making a big difference.

volchitsa

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

When my child was a similar age they were so difficult. The completely turned a corner when I began to offer choices about the most innocuous of things. They were just simple little choices like ‘do you want to get dressed here, or over there’ and it made all the difference. We had been through following through on consequences, and while we still do follow through, we found solely using that method would turn into a huge battle of wills, and have our child be in bad form continuously. Turns out he is a strong willed child who just wanted to have control over some parts of his day, making him more agreeable toward other things. I’m not sure this will apply in your situation but I hope it might help!

Yes this is like my experience too, but I think the poster who pointed out that this needs to be done before the conflict arises in the first place is really spot on.
I see friends of mine trying to put this into practice but because they only do it sporadically or else after the child has already refused, it inevitably turns into haggling, which is not how it is meant to go.

wexie

volchitsa wrote: »

it inevitably turns into haggling, which is not how it is meant to go.

Turns out that bribery isn't the way to better parenting!

margo321

children wreck your head. its their nature to be difficult. Its like thet cant help it. They are not mini adults. I honestky find my 3 year old behaves best when i connect with her before asking her to do things. give choices you can live with. distract and make things into a game. its very harf and draining but i think being strict and bossy makes them.bolder.

evolving_doors

wexie wrote: »

Turns out that bribery isn't the way to better parenting!

If you do bribe, you have to do it quick and let em know the offer is open for a few seconds only.
e.g.
Parent: C'mon Turn of the telly yer bath is ready
Child: But I'm watching this.
Parent: I'll pause it and give you a jelly. Yes or no?
Child: yes

If child says no though you gotta follow through and let the water go cold until the program is over... or else pull the plug and leave it for another day but with better timing between programs.

Conservatory

evolving_doors wrote: »

If you do bribe, you have to do it quick and let em know the offer is open for a few seconds only.
e.g.
Parent: C'mon Turn of the telly yer bath is ready
Child: But I'm watching this.
Parent: I'll pause it and give you a jelly. Yes or no?
Child: yes

If child says no though you gotta follow through and let the water go cold until the program is over... or else pull the plug and leave it for another day but with better timing between programs.

Wtf you give them a cold bath rather than pick them up and put them in a warm one because choices??
And jellies?

Pull the plug on the Telly. Announce its bath time as the water is going cold and you are busy and they need a bath. Be the parent.

It sounds very like you are pleading with the baby to follow the rules by giving him jellies. My kids don’t need jellies all that much it’d be a fairground for them with that approach.

Dravokivich

My son occasionally tries to test me. He's about 4.5 now and has been trying it for a year. Never really let him off with it. He was familiar with the story "the boy who cried wolf" and I'd put him in that kids spot. Worked for a while, then to establish some sense of responsibility I told him I won't do anything for wingers. (He knows it's fine to cry when hurt, sad, upset, scared). This then evolved into asking him whenever he's winging "what does daddy do for wingers" with the answer being "nothing". Seems to be working for now.

Right now, if it ain't ASD, she's testing ye. Ye need to teach her ye know what's going on and that it's not acceptable.

Pawwed Rig

My little one (4) doesn't like surprises. Like he will react badly to 'turn the TV off and goto bed' but is fine with 'you can watch one more song and then it is bed time'.

That said sometimes you just need to put the foot down regardless of reaction.

corks finest

Conservatory wrote: »

I’ve had a moment like this with all my children around that age maybe a year older. All boys. I found putting them to bed for the day after school and only having them down for meals straightened them out instantly. I know some activist will be along now to tell me my methods are reprehensible but this is what happened to all children before child rearing hippies invaded the place.
Make sure to explain in a calm manner what was going on and why this was happening. Then stay firm.
Of course they could have some form of difference that needs help but with a good explanation to why they were going to bed will make sure it doesn’t harm them.

They can then lie there bored and think about why they are in this predicament.

Is there other issues at home like a lot of shouting and stuff, kids pick up on this some times and act the same way. I’m not suggesting abusing them or anything but alot of people need to learn the tools of calm discussion rather than shouting. I see it in apprentices all the time when they start working with me when they can’t have a disagreement in work without trying to use their stature or toughness to threaten the other fella to submission. I find these lads were raised in a house where mammy and daddy didn’t explain reasons for rules but just enforced them with loudness and animation.

I’m not saying I’m completely innocent of losing the head the odd time I have 4 boys and sometimes you leave them alone for five minutes and find a kitchen caked in mash potato and halfway into a rant you have to stop yourself and explain how much of a hassle it is for you to clean mash potato and the world would be a better place if everybody treated everybody with respect yards yadda.
They are in the most part the most well mannered children and I find most of the new age mumsnet type parents have the worst behaved socially awkward kids eating carrots for snacks.

I hope that was helpful and I hope you don’t think I’m accusing you of anything. Goodluck and Godspeed.

Good honest advice

evolving_doors

Conservatory wrote: »

Wtf you give them a cold bath rather than pick them up and put them in a warm one because choices??
And jellies?

Pull the plug on the Telly. Announce its bath time as the water is going cold and you are busy and they need a bath. Be the parent.

It sounds very like you are pleading with the baby to follow the rules by giving him jellies. My kids don’t need jellies all that much it’d be a fairground for them with that approach.

Ah yeah, that's when I do bribe. It's rare , but if youre choosing battles and know your reserve is very low when an argument is inevitable.
+ kids programs are 25 mins max so waiting 10 won't make the water that cold.

Conservatory

TheBoyConor wrote: »

A good flake across the back of the legs put manners on many an unruly child in days gone by.
Too much of this amateur child psychology going on these days.

I agree with you in the too much child psychology stuff but hitting people first just teaches them to hit first.
There is a whole arsenal of tools at your disposal to get people to do what you want an unruly child can learn these skills from you or they can learn hitting skills from you.

Anne_cordelia

Ok half the posts here need to be ignored. It’s easy to pass off modern parenting as looking too much into psychology but look around at the generation having kids now and how mental health has suffered. We need to change this by ensuring our kids are secure and have healthy attachments, not by throwing them into their own rooms alone.

3.5 is a really tough age for most kids. Set boundaries and expectations. Follow through. Be consistent. Giving choices is good. Mostly ride this out with as much patience and love as you can. Try to hug after a tantrum. Just make sure you keep connecting with your child. It will get easier.

This is a good article. https://planningwithkids.com/2009/11/17/characteristics-of-three-and-a-half-year-old-behavior/

Conservatory

Anne_cordelia wrote: »

Ok half the posts here need to be ignored. It’s easy to pass off modern parenting as looking too much into psychology but look around at the generation having kids now and how mental health has suffered. We need to change this by ensuring our kids are secure and have healthy attachments, not by throwing them into their own rooms alone.

3.5 is a really tough age for most kids. Set boundaries and expectations. Follow through. Be consistent. Giving choices is good. Mostly ride this out with as much patience and love as you can. Try to hug after a tantrum. Just make sure you keep connecting with your child. It will get easier.

This is a good article. https://planningwithkids.com/2009/11/17/characteristics-of-three-and-a-half-year-old-behavior/

Haha you are linking mental health problems with being grounded?

Anne_cordelia

Conservatory wrote: »

Haha you are linking mental health problems with being grounded?

No I’m linking mental health issues to children not having a secure attachment to their parents in early childhood. That’s proven.

Conservatory

Anne_cordelia wrote: »

No I’m linking mental health issues to children not having a secure attachment to their parents in early childhood. That’s proven.

There’s nothing more excite than a good grounding if you ask me. Anyway we shall agree to disagree.

Malayalam

Some of it is us, the parents. The first child is the focus of so much attention, naturally - they are astonishing surprises! Look what we have made! - but even more so these days kids are like little mini-me side-kicks starring in a micro-movie with endless photo ops and indulgences. They suffer from the laser-like scrutiny.
Even at the best of times being the oldest is tricky as they bear the brunt of all our parental neurosis and worry at first time parenting. A small child has naturally not developed consciousness of the independent existence of other people, the world revolves around them, and this is heightened and confirmed by spoiling and constant attention.
A kid needs lots of alone time. Time to destress in natural settings. Their little bodies and minds build up incredible tension. So they need time rolling on the grass. Building small forts. Climbing trees. Sitting in muddy puddles making pies. Sandcastles. Paddling pools. Making stuff with their hands. Flower chains. Building pretend gardens and cities and dens in the dirt. Time when no one is cooing over them or supervising them (except from a distance). Or photographing them, or pointing out their cuteness to observers, etc etc. Just left to feck alone to chill out.
Also remove as much sugar as is possible from their diet. Including all those sweetened cereals, petit filous (if they are still a thing, or their equivalent), fruity chew bars or whatever is pretend-good for them but packed with gack, chocolately anything. Think of sugar as nitro-glycerine for the child's brain and respond accordingly.
When they act out like brats don't engage in any battles of wills, you will end up disliking them. Better to dial down all your response to almost nothing - let them explode, they cannot help it at this stage, they have been conditioned to it, they are super tense from frustration and expectation - and then hold their hands or their feet or touch their skin and explain to them calmly that it's not much use to anyone to behave like that, and let's do something else together.

Best of Luck. The difficult kids usually get better around 25-28 or so, I have found. :P

Hannibal_Smith

Our now 6 year old was like your daughter. We actually brought him to the gp because we were out of options. His behaviour descending to such that when he was in time out, he would bang his head off the floor. He would scream so much he would be close to vommitting all of that became the norm. But then he started saying things like 'you just hate me why don't you just kill me'. We were like wtf. How did you even thibk of that. One day he got so hysterical my husband had to take the day off work because there was nothing else we could do.

Like you, we're strict. We didn't give choices but we would always let him know he was well loved and respected. We never told anyone but our parents, looking for tips and advice on how to deal with it. But unless you saw him at his worst and how the smallest thing would kick him off you wouldn't have believed it. We tried everything. Reward charts for good behaviour, counting down to when he had to do something instead of surprising him with it...honest to to god nothing worked when he was in that mood.

Anyhow we brought him to the gp because of how he was deteriorating. He said he was looking for attention and when he gets bad ignore it. We did try this before but he would get so bad you couldn't ignore it. The gp said he's a very emotionally intelligent kid. He had a talk with him and said there was nothing wrong...he was deterioriating because we ignoring it, he had to up his game. We were a bit deflated. We were hoping for some sort of diagnosis that he could help us with...not just batten down the hatches! But he was right.

Anyhow the reason I'm explaining the above is to show I understand what you're saying. I understand how you can try absolutely everything, but they match you at every step. It is not pleasant.

So we followed the gps advice. We ignored it when he got hysterical. Oh my god it was horrendous. He really had to go his game and I thought I was genuinely have to sell him on eBay :pac: So I upped my game. I started videoing him in those states and would play it back to him. The look on his face when he viewed it back. It was a chink of light that something was sinking in that his behaviour was not acceptable.

When it came to having to do something we would give him 5 mins, 2 mins, 1 minute. Then when he started flipping out we could tell him he had been warned it was nearly time to go.

When he was being naughty we would ask him to stop. I would give him 3 chances and show counting on my fingers chance 1, chance 2, chance 3. Then it was time out. When he screamed and screamed, we ignored it. It was so loud lol and we really had to support each other during it. When we twigged the videoing we could came him down even before time out.

Overtime things improved. It is a million times better now. I fear we've tamed the beast and not actually cured him and when his teenage years come about we will suffer again But hopefully we'll have put in enough years of happiness that he might actually like us by then :pac:

To be fair, he is a lovely kid. And he is such a funny kid. Now his freak outs have calmed I think he can see he's enjoying things more too.

Finally I would say talk to another parent with kids the same age. Someone you trust. We didn't because we really were embarrassed about it. But when the gp visit happened I spoke to a group of mums at football training one night
Well the understanding and support I got was really huge. And their stories made me feel less beaten by it!

Anyhow hope there's something in the above you can take away to benefit the situation. Hope situations improve and you get to enjoy your daughter.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Our now 6 year old was like your daughter. We actually brought him to the gp because we were out of options. His behaviour descending to such that when he was in time out, he would bang his head off the floor. He would scream so much he would be close to vommitting all of that became the norm. But then he started saying things like 'you just hate me why don't you just kill me'. We were like wtf. How did you even thibk of that. One day he got so hysterical my husband had to take the day off work because there was nothing else we could do.

Like you, we're strict. We didn't give choices but we would always let him know he was well loved and respected. We never told anyone but our parents, looking for tips and advice on how to deal with it. But unless you saw him at his worst and how the smallest thing would kick him off you wouldn't have believed it. We tried everything. Reward charts for good behaviour, counting down to when he had to do something instead of surprising him with it...honest to to god nothing worked when he was in that mood.

Anyhow we brought him to the gp because of how he was deteriorating. He said he was looking for attention and when he gets bad ignore it. We did try this before but he would get so bad you couldn't ignore it. The gp said he's a very emotionally intelligent kid. He had a talk with him and said there was nothing wrong...he was deterioriating because we ignoring it, he had to up his game. We were a bit deflated. We were hoping for some sort of diagnosis that he could help us with...not just batten down the hatches! But he was right.

Anyhow the reason I'm explaining the above is to show I understand what you're saying. I understand how you can try absolutely everything, but they match you at every step. It is not pleasant.

So we followed the gps advice. We ignored it when he got hysterical. Oh my god it was horrendous. He really had to go his game and I thought I was genuinely have to sell him on eBay :pac: So I upped my game. I started videoing him in those states and would play it back to him. The look on his face when he viewed it back. It was a chink of light that something was sinking in that his behaviour was not acceptable.

When it came to having to do something we would give him 5 mins, 2 mins, 1 minute. Then when he started flipping out we could tell him he had been warned it was nearly time to go.

When he was being naughty we would ask him to stop. I would give him 3 chances and show counting on my fingers chance 1, chance 2, chance 3. Then it was time out. When he screamed and screamed, we ignored it. It was so loud lol and we really had to support each other during it. When we twigged the videoing we could came him down even before time out.

Overtime things improved. It is a million times better now. I fear we've tamed the beast and not actually cured him and when his teenage years come about we will suffer again But hopefully we'll have put in enough years of happiness that he might actually like us by then :pac:

To be fair, he is a lovely kid. And he is such a funny kid. Now his freak outs have calmed I think he can see he's enjoying things more too.

Finally I would say talk to another parent with kids the same age. Someone you trust. We didn't because we really were embarrassed about it. But when the gp visit happened I spoke to a group of mums at football training one night
Well the understanding and support I got was really huge. And their stories made me feel less beaten by it!

Anyhow hope there's something in the above you can take away to benefit the situation. Hope situations improve and you get to enjoy your daughter.

That's a very honest post that will hopefully help the OP. Thanks for sharing.

mirrorwall14

I have a 3.5 year old boy. He’s a good lad but can definitely push the boundaries.

First off if he is tired or hungry there is going to be a meltdown. I keep snacks on hand, watch for him (he forgets to eat when busy) and steer food related ones off. Tired ones are harder because if he naps he is the devil incarnate for the rest of the day. Distractions are absolutely vital here. I have Julia Donaldson CDs in the car, I’ll sing/whistle/shout with him to get him to stay awake (the car is the place he will nod off in a heartbeat). Snacks also can work and the odd treat when I’m desperate!

Eliminating or minimising those two meant we could see the light to keep our cool on other situations.

There’s been discussion of choices, warnings and immediate consequences here as well as ignoring. We use all of the above. This can be tough if grandparents/family are around but they are largely seeing how important they are now.

Bedtime was a disaster last year but it’s improved immeasurably. In our house for example bedtime might go:
1. Warning that in 5 mins we will be going to bed
2. Warning that in 1 min we will be going to bed
3. If he’s grumpy about it steer off the tantrum with choices e.g. which toy/book would you like to bring with you? Would you like to walk up the stairs or will I carry you? I think I’m going to win going upstairs! Etc etc. I’ve also been known to give his teddy or toy or daddy the choice if he doesn’t want to choose
Anything that gives a result that I’m happy with!
4. If he’s still refusing then he gets a warning. In the case of bedtime it’s a consequence not time out because that would delay bedtime. If you do not go up yourself (still choices/mini incentives such as a race or a reminder that teddy/book are waiting) then I will bring you upstairs. First to third warning and immediately implement it. He gets brought up the stairs immediately. At the top of the stairs it’s explained exactly what happened and why. Then it’s over unless he is in full blown tantrum.
5. Distraction/choices will again be the first choice to snap him out of the tantrum. ‘Would you like to put toothpaste on your batman toothbrush?’ Etc. 99.9% of the time he’s done at this stage and knows we mean business and it’s all over.

If we’re very exceptionally unlucky the whole procedure starts again with warnings and immediate consequences. We almost never have issues with bedtime now and bedtime is absolutely mandatory by 730 no matter where we are because it has knock on effects on his behaviour for days. If we are at an event we leave at 7 let him fall asleep and transfer him. I make no major apologies for this, we have to deal with the 48hrs of madness if we overstay and disrupt his routine.

We do have a naughty step and sometimes if he knows he’s been bold he will literally go and sit on it himself. The naughty step is reserved usually for things like hitting or yelling at someone. Where possible we prefer immediate consequences e.g. told not to pour sand on his head, three warnings and the sand pit gets closed immediately. He takes things personally and finds the naughty step tough, can hit himself because ‘he’s a bold boy’ etc (we don’t use the word bold-he came up with it himself).

The last piece of advice is hard for parents and I always think of the parenting show on moncreife which I’ve listened to since pregnancy. You do not yell back at your child.

I’ll repeat ‘do NOT start a shouting match with your child’.

It will escalate if we do. We are the adults. We have to moderate our voice. We have to be calm all the time. If needs be you turn to the other parent if you are lucky enough to have one and give a signal to swap (we have had to do this on occasion and it’s very important). My parents rarely raised their voices to us, sometimes I wished they would because that calmness could be so infuriating. As my teenage self would yell, I can’t fight with you you won’t fight back!!

The very best of luck and a big hug for you because parenting is not easy