AA violating the law

troyzer

Fol20 wrote: »

If it was something important, yes keep fighting it. But it’s a banking law which for me would not be one of my priorities. I’d throw all that extra energy into work so you can get your next bonus and pay rise

Fair point, it does seem to be getting on my tits in an irrational way when I write it out like this.

Tragically, I work in the public sector. Work is optional. Hence the plan to emigrate again.

troyzer

TheChizler wrote: »

TBF it sounds like a principle thing, one I'd be fighting if I was in the same situation. Fair play OP if they're wrong and you have the energy for it.

It could be more than a principle. Ultimately my credit rating is tied into my mam's bank account and her own financials. Not that I don't trust my Mam but there are any number of reasons why she can't clear a direct debit in a given month and it's out of my control.

wexie

troyzer wrote: »

The refund definitely takes the edge of one of my concerns. As an aside, is there a rough guide to what I can expect to save from next year? It'll be the same car, an 05 1 litre Yaris but now I'll have 1 year NCB (fingers crossed) and I'll be over 25. If it doesn't drop substantially I'll tear my hair out.

I really don't know, I've given up on trying to make sense of insurance.

Best advice I can give you for when the renewal comes up is to just shop around till you're blue in the face.

troyzer

wexie wrote: »

I really don't know, I've given up on trying to make sense of insurance.

Best advice I can give you for when the renewal comes up is to just shop around till you're blue in the face.

I tried that last time and two grand was the cheapest. AXA are the underwriters on my current policy but if you go direct with them on the same terms it's 800 euro more expensive.

Go figure.

Hopefully this EU investigation will finally crack some heads.

Alun

troyzer wrote: »

Fair point, it does seem to be getting on my tits in an irrational way when I write it out like this.

I've lived in 4 different countries in my lifetime, and if I got myself worked up to that level about every thing that was different to the last place I lived in, I'd probably be dead from nervous exhaustion at this rate. There is no such thing as a perfectly run country, believe me, and I'm sure if I moved to Australia, for example, I'd find plenty of stuff to get unnecessarily worked up about too. Life's too short for that kind of carry-on.

troyzer

Alun wrote: »

I've lived in 4 different countries in my lifetime, and if I got myself worked up to that level about every thing that was different to the last place I lived in, I'd probably be dead from nervous exhaustion at this rate. There is no such thing as a perfectly run country, believe me, and I'm sure if I moved to Australia, for example, I'd find plenty of stuff to get unnecessarily worked up about too. Life's too short for that kind of carry-on.

I can't say I had much of a problem with Australia when it come to offialdom. My only real complaint was how expensive everything was.

G_R

This is probably just something as simple as they haven't updated their system to accept IBANs on the front line.

They probably still work off inputting NSC and Account and convert to IBAN in the background number which until N26 came on the scene worked perfectly for the vast majority of their customers and they've had no inventive to update it.

Obviously N26 has it's IBANs in the German format which don't match up with our 6 digit sort code and 8 digit account number and that's likely where the issue lies.

Not sure I'd gave the patience to peruse it but I wish you best of luck with it, as they should accept any valid SEPA IBAN.

troyzer

G_R wrote: »

This is probably just something as simple as they haven't updated their system to accept IBANs on the front line.

They probably still work off inputting NSC and Account and convert to IBAN in the background number which until N26 came on the scene worked perfectly for the vast majority of their customers and they've had no inventive to update it.

Obviously N26 has it's IBANs in the German format which don't match up with our 6 digit sort code and 8 digit account number and that's likely where the issue lies.

Not sure I'd gave the patience to peruse it but I wish you best of luck with it, as they should accept any valid SEPA IBAN.

The woman on the phone originally asked for my IBAN, she never asked for my sort code or anything like that. Which she input correctly, the system just told her it wasn't acceptable. She said it was specifically the DE at the start that was being flagged, not the number of digits. In any case, these SEPA guidlines were published over six years ago and came into force in 2014. Saying they haven't gotten around to it really isn't an excuse.

TheChizler

troyzer wrote: »

The woman on the phone originally asked for my IBAN, she never asked for my sort code or anything like that. Which she input correctly, the system just told her it wasn't acceptable. She said it was specifically the DE at the start that was being flagged, not the number of digits. In any case, these SEPA guidlines were published over six years ago and came into force in 2014. Saying they haven't gotten around to it really isn't an excuse.

I think what normally happens is they have an old system, which takes sort code and account number, but have put a new layer on top of that which converts IBAN to Irish sort code and account number. This is only possible if the first two digits are IE. So it looks like they accept IBANs when in reality's the old system processing the payment.

Unfortunately the release cycle for these systems is normally greater than six years. Large companies are reluctant to change a massive system once it's working. Aer Lingus use terminals and a passenger management system that was developed in the 80s for example. Newer layers have been added but ultimately the core is the same ancient system.

(Source: Friend is a check-in agent who sees a copyright statement from the 80s along with the developers name whenever he has to reboot the terminal.)

Edit: That should say the 60s! https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-aims-to-sell-it-systems-to-other-airlines-29712716.html

troyzer

TheChizler wrote: »

I think what normally happens is they have an old system, which takes sort code and account number, but have put a new layer on top of that which converts IBAN to Irish sort code and account number. This is only possible if the first two digits are IE. So it looks like they accept IBANs when in reality's the old system processing the payment.

Unfortunately the release cycle for these systems is normally greater than six years. Large companies are reluctant to change a massive system once it's working. Aer Lingus use terminals and a passenger management system that was developed in the 80s for example. Newer layers have been added but ultimately the core is the same ancient system.

(Source: Friend is a check-in agent who sees a copyright statement from the 80s along with the developers name whenever he has to reboot the terminal.)

Right, but ultimately the law requires them to take my account. Surely it being difficult to replace isn't an excuse for breaking the law?

Can you imagine if a factory wasn't arsed installing new safety devices because they're too expensive? They'd be lynched by the HSA.

TheChizler

troyzer wrote: »

Right, but ultimately the law requires them to take my account. Surely it being difficult to replace isn't an excuse for breaking the law?

Can you imagine if a factory wasn't arsed installing new safety devices because they're too expensive? They'd be lynched by the HSA.

I fully agree. Unfortunately there is no equivalent enforcement in the consumer side of banking, other people in this forum have had similar trouble with Bus Eireann but the authority have no teeth.

GerardKeating

TheChizler wrote: »

The issue of credit being extended aside, just assuming it is for now, is there a law that says that they can't accept non-Irish banks for making direct debit payments against a credit agreement?

SEPA allows direct debits only with a signed agreement, Irish banks go slightly further and also allow them to be setup online and via the phone, without a signed physical mandate. They are correct in that they cannot do it over the phone, but should/must offer the option of completing a physical forms.

TheChizler

GerardKeating wrote: »

SEPA allows direct debits only with a signed agreement, Irish banks go slightly further and also allow them to be setup online and via the phone, without a signed physical mandate. They are correct in that they cannot do it over the phone, but should/must offer the option of completing a physical forms.

Yes, but is the method of repayment legally restricted depending on the service being paid for, as the company are claiming?

Edit: Oh, are you saying that when repaying credit via direct debit, if the bank is foreign the mandate cannot be set up over the phone?

GerardKeating

TheChizler wrote: »

Yes, but is the method of repayment legally restricted depending on the service being paid for, as the company are claiming?

Edit: Oh, are you saying that when repaying credit via direct debit, if the bank is foreign the mandate cannot be set up over the phone?

Not legally, but they can impose any irrational term and make it a condition of the contract that you accept the terms, assuming that the terms are not discriminatory or illegal in some day.

TheChizler

GerardKeating wrote: »

Not legally, but they can impose any irrational term and make it a condition of the contract that you accept the terms, assuming that the terms are not discriminatory or illegal in some day.

Sounds like they are since the quoted (first couple of posts) law says they have to accept any SEPA bank for direct debit, and if there's no legal exemption for when the product is a credit agreement.

Alun

troyzer wrote: »

I can't say I had much of a problem with Australia when it come to offialdom. My only real complaint was how expensive everything was.

I wasn't restricting my comment to officialdom alone. There are many aspects to living in another country that can be different to what you're used to. Just embrace the good ones, put up with the bad ones and move on, I say.

troyzer

Alun wrote: »

I wasn't restricting my comment to officialdom alone. There are many aspects to living in another country that can be different to what you're used to. Just embrace the good ones, put up with the bad ones and move on, I say.

Normally I'd agree but in this case it should be a good one but the AA are ignoring it.

Gooser14

troyzer wrote:

1) How are they allowed to classify insurance as a credit agreement if they simply cut you off if you don't pay? I am paying monthly for something I'm using monthly. If they're allowed to charge interest, why aren't Netflix? Or Sky?

Some insurance companies/brokers do in fact set up the monthly payments as a loan and as such missing payments can affect ones credit rating.

TheChizler

Gooser14 wrote: »

Some insurance companies/brokers do in fact set up the monthly payments as a loan and as such missing payments can affect ones credit rating.

Which insurance companies are members of the ICB?

Fogmatic

If I’m out of date, please correct me (and it would be good news!), but I think there’s an elephant in the room here; credit histories don't cross borders.  Even within Europe. (Even between Northern Ireland and the Republic, even if it’s the same bank). You can have a long, unblemished credit history and nobody outside its country will look at it.  And none of the powers that be seem to flag this up (or any guides I’ve seen re moving abroad).

I only found out by moving from the UK to the ROI (despite our UK bank having given us an advice session about the move, and having links with our most convenient Irish bank).  I followed my credit.card people’s instructions for notifying them of a new address (no mention of any difference re an overseas one), and was then informed that I had to close the account.  We had to build up a credit record again from scratch, in a place where nobody knew us. (Getting the first bit of credit to start my new record was an interesting conundrum!).

And 25 years later, I still read of people being in the dark about this and so getting into financial holes,even if they’ve done all the research that should be necessary,  (And still watch helplessly as emigrants in TV documentaries find out the hard way that they can’t, for instance, get any kind of phone in a hurry).

End of rant.  If had to choose just one time-consuming hobby-horse around this discussion, this would be it.  But then in our case, we had 12 years of paying through the nose for things before e could get a credit card here, and even then it was by a fluke.  Whatever’s struck you personally as wrong is the right place to channel your tenacity!

G_R

TheChizler wrote: »

Which insurance companies are members of the ICB?

None that I'm aware of, but AIG (for example, I'm sure there's more) use Premium Credit for their direct debits.

Essentially premium credit pay AIG for the yearly premium and you pay them back with interest (marketed as a cost for paying by direct debit).

Yggr of Asgard

TheChizler wrote: »

Which insurance companies are members of the ICB?

If the amount of the credit agreement is over 500€ than it goes into the central credit register and if you miss a payment it will effect your credit rating.

Forget the outdated ICB, they are harmless, the danger is the CCR.

Yggr of Asgard

As all of the parties here (the AA as insurance intermediary, your actual underwriter and the company that you signed the credit agreement with) are regulated by the Central Bank you might want to complain to them rather than the CCPC. In fact the only company you really have a case against is who ever has lended you the money.

You also could complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman’s Bureau who I have good experience with. But it requires you to have a final answer from the AA (or who ever extended you the credit) before they get involved. So get in contact with AA and log a formal complaint. There are timelines they have to stick to in answering you. If you download their T&C's they must have those in there.

Generally you are right, they can not refuse to take SEPA compliant bank account from you. They have the right to demand a written instruction (as pointed out in this thread).

They might deceided that as part of their credit assessment that they don't want to extend credit to you if you don't have an irish bank account but once they offer you credit they can not dictate where the account is from.

So what you could do, is write them a letter and instruct them to take the money from your account and request that they acknowledge the instruction in writing or provide you their refusal in writing. Once you get that, you can complain as outlined above.

TheChizler

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

If the amount of the credit agreement is over 500€ than it goes into the central credit register and if you miss a payment it will effect your credit rating.

Forget the outdated ICB, they are harmless, the danger is the CCR.

That must be new is it? I'm too used to seeing people correcting people saying utilities providers and debt collectors could affect your credit rating.

Spook_ie

Looks like not only the AA struggling with N26 etc. for money transfers
https://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2057698679/1#post102427206

BTW what's to stop me laundering all my money through the likes of N26, doesn't seem to look for anything other than emails and phone numbers?

TheChizler

Spook_ie wrote: »

BTW what's to stop me laundering all my money through the likes of N26, doesn't seem to look for anything other than emails and phone numbers?

And photo ID and proof of address.

troyzer

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

As all of the parties here (the AA as insurance intermediary, your actual underwriter and the company that you signed the credit agreement with) are regulated by the Central Bank you might want to complain to them rather than the CCPC. In fact the only company you really have a case against is who ever has lended you the money.

You also could complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman’s Bureau who I have good experience with. But it requires you to have a final answer from the AA (or who ever extended you the credit) before they get involved. So get in contact with AA and log a formal complaint. There are timelines they have to stick to in answering you. If you download their T&C's they must have those in there.

Generally you are right, they can not refuse to take SEPA compliant bank account from you. They have the right to demand a written instruction (as pointed out in this thread).

They might deceided that as part of their credit assessment that they don't want to extend credit to you if you don't have an irish bank account but once they offer you credit they can not dictate where the account is from.

So what you could do, is write them a letter and instruct them to take the money from your account and request that they acknowledge the instruction in writing or provide you their refusal in writing. Once you get that, you can complain as outlined above.

I imagine the Ombudsman as you say is going to say the same as the Central Bank and CCPB, that I need their position in writing. I did originally go to the Central Bank by the way and they told me while they can enforce the code, they can't investigate violations, that's incumbent on the Ombudsman and CCPB (explain that, baffling). Telling the AA to give me the letter isn't working because while they've clearly exceeded any reasonable time limit for giving me my letter, the CCPB still told me there's nothing they can do until I get it. Which is really frustrating because the AA can easily just run down the clock and get away with it and there doesn't seem to be a way of stopping them. I have lodged a formal complaint and this is down under my notes on my account. This complaint and the response is what I'm trying to get access to under GDPR because while they're happy to tell me over the phone, they're still refusing to give it to me in writing without this data request (which is madness).

They had already offered me the credit when I brought up my bank account. But this was over the phone so I presume they could just lie.

I'll write them a letter next. Although I'm curious to find out what's going to happen when they inevitably go over the 30 days for GDPR. Only five days left.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Looks like not only the AA struggling with N26 etc. for money transfers
https://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2057698679/1#post102427206

BTW what's to stop me laundering all my money through the likes of N26, doesn't seem to look for anything other than emails and phone numbers?

You can't deposit cash into N26 in Ireland and the ID process is exactly the same as a normal bank. They videocall you on the app and ask to see your ID. You have to show them the watermarks etc. It's fairly legit.

hanaimai

troyzer wrote: »

I imagine the Ombudsman as you say is going to say the same as the Central Bank and CCPB, that I need their position in writing. I did originally go to the Central Bank by the way and they told me while they can enforce the code, they can't investigate violations, that's incumbent on the Ombudsman and CCPB (explain that, baffling). Telling the AA to give me the letter isn't working because while they've clearly exceeded any reasonable time limit for giving me my letter, the CCPB still told me there's nothing they can do until I get it. Which is really frustrating because the AA can easily just run down the clock and get away with it and there doesn't seem to be a way of stopping them. I have lodged a formal complaint and this is down under my notes on my account. This complaint and the response is what I'm trying to get access to under GDPR because while they're happy to tell me over the phone, they're still refusing to give it .

The Central Bank can't investigate individual consumer complaints - that is the remit of the Financial Services Ombudsman. The Central Bank can, of course, use consumer complaints as information for their supervisory activities. So while you might not be able to tell you anything about your individual complaint, you can bring their attention to an issue with a firm and they might investigate further. See here - https://centralbank.ie/consumer-hub/explainers/how-do-i-complain-about-a-financial-services-firm

As another user has explained, to complain to the Financial Services Ombudsman you will need to have lodged a formal complaint with AA first and received an unsatisfactory response. Then you can bring the complaint to the Ombudsman. The process is set out on their website.

I have no idea what the CCPC's involvement is here - as far as I know, this would be outside their remit.

troyzer

hanaimai wrote: »

The Central Bank can't investigate individual consumer complaints - that is the remit of the Financial Services Ombudsman. The Central Bank can, of course, use consumer complaints as information for their supervisory activities. So while you might not be able to tell you anything about your individual complaint, you can bring their attention to an issue with a firm and they might investigate further. See here - https://centralbank.ie/consumer-hub/explainers/how-do-i-complain-about-a-financial-services-firm

As another user has explained, to complain to the Financial Services Ombudsman you will need to have lodged a formal complaint with AA first and received an unsatisfactory response. Then you can bring the complaint to the Ombudsman. The process is set out on their website.

I have no idea what the CCPC's involvement is here - as far as I know, this would be outside their remit.

Yeah, I just went on their website there. It's buried on the site that they don't investigate individual complaints. This is the CCPC. Why have they told me several times on the phone then that they do and that they just need a written confirmation from the AA?

Doesn't matter, I'll wait until the 30 days are up and the write a formal email of complaint about both not accepting my IBAN, the subsequent delay and not complying with GDPR. That should get a pretty brisk response. Which I'll then forward onto the financial ombudsman.

troyzer

Just rang the Ombudsman. They told me that I need a final response letter which apparentely the AA can take up to 40 WORKING days to give me. And from there it can take two months to investigate. This is ridiculous. CCPC have just completely wasted my time.