Not carrying a Driving license

mvl

samach wrote: »

I was told by my insurance company that if you fail to produce a driving license, the Garda give you 5 days to produce it in a Garda station.

Such statement from an insurance company seems odd to me (am I the only one ?!?)

Guess conversation with insurance company staff is recorded (same as all other conversations with them) -> this might be handy if you have to go back to tell them off (sic!)

GM228

mvl wrote: »

samach wrote: »

I was told by my insurance company that if you fail to produce a driving license, the Garda give you 5 days to produce it in a Garda station.

Such statement from an insurance company seems odd to me (am I the only one ?!?)

Not really, insurance companies say many things.

A classic case of the person on the other end of the line giving sound legal advice. :pac:

dense

GM228 wrote: »

The lower limits only apply if you actually don't have a licence, if you subsequently produced a valid full licence which you held at the time the *lower limit does not apply.

*Unless you are a novice driver.

The lower limits also apply to holders of professional category licences regardless of the vehicle being driven at the time of being stopped.

TheChizler

GM228 wrote: »

No, production or not has no bearing on the limits.

The limits are based on the type of licence you hold at the time, not weather or not it is in your possession at the time.

OK so you get stopped and don't have your license on you to produce and can't prove which one you have. You blow over the limit that would result in arrest for a novice driver, but lower than that for a full driver. What happens?

randomrb

GM228 wrote: »

Produce means show to the Garda your licence and allow them to read it, nothing says who can/can't hold it, but by refusing to allow them hold it it could be inferred that you are failing to allow them to read it properly, best to air on the side of caution.

s25 of the 1994 act


(3) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded or required under this section refuses or fails so to produce the licence or produces the licence but refuses or fails to permit the member of the Garda Síochána to whom it is produced to read the licence, the member may demand of the person his name and address and, if the person refuses or fails to give to the member his name and address or gives to the member a name or address which is false or misleading, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant—

(a) a person who pursuant to this section produces a driving licence to the member but refuses or fails to permit the member to read it, or

(b) a person who, when his name and address is lawfully demanded of him by the member under this section, refuses or fails to give to the member his name and address or gives to the member a name or address which the member reasonably believes to be false.

GM228

dense wrote: »

The lower limits also apply to holders of professional category licences regardless of the vehicle being driven at the time of being stopped.

Incorrect, it only applies if they are driving the appropriate vehicle at the time, for example a category D holder is subject to the lower limit if driving a category D vehicle, but not if driving a category B vehicle.

GM228

TheChizler wrote: »

OK so you get stopped and don't have your license on you to produce and can't prove which one you have. You blow over the limit that would result in arrest for a novice driver, but lower than that for a full driver. What happens?

You can be arrested on suspicion of drink driving if they believe you are a novice driver, they will establish what type of licence you hold though quick enough.

Claw Hammer

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You say nonsense, I say common sense.

What is common sense about guards in a station having to note the production of a licence, another guard having to check if the licence was produced, a court clerk having to issue a summons, a guard having to go to court because of the non-production only to have the charge struck out when the idiot driver turns up with his licence? Nobody should be driving a car without having their license about them.

coylemj

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What is common sense about guards in a station having to note the production of a licence, another guard having to check if the licence was produced, a court clerk having to issue a summons, a guard having to go to court because of the non-production only to have the charge struck out when the idiot driver turns up with his licence? Nobody should be driving a car without having their license about them.

It's been the way of the world for years now. If your tax and insurance are in order, the licence is considered a relatively minor matter (provided you're not disqualified) so even if you forget to produce it within 10 days, get summonsed and show a valid licence to the prosecuting Garda in the courtroom, judges tend to dismiss the summons for non-production of the licence.

Part of the reason judges are lenient on that specific summons (when everything else is in order) is that in a lot of cases, the driver did produce the licence at the Garda station but gets summonsed anyway, it's not always the driver's fault. Your typical judge is aware of this so in order to head off an objection from the driver if he attempts to fine him for non-production, the safest option is to dismiss.

Claw Hammer

coylemj wrote: »

It's been the way of the world for years now. If your tax and insurance are in order, the licence is considered a relatively minor matter (provided you're not disqualified) so even if you forget to produce it within 10 days, get summonsed and show a valid licence to the prosecuting Garda in the courtroom, judges tend to dismiss the summons for non-production of the licence.

Part of the reason is that in a lot of cases, the driver did produce the licence at the Garda station but gets summonsed anyway, it's not always the driver's fault that he gets summonsed for non-production. Your typical judge is aware of this so in order to head off an objection from the driver if he attempts to fine him for non-production, the safest option is to dismiss.

That is why it would be far better to insist that people have licences on them, end of story. No licence, get out of the car and come back with the licence.

coylemj

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That is why it would be far better to insist that people have licences on them, end of story. No licence, get out of the car and come back with the licence.

A woman on the school run with a car load of kids? Someone driving his elderly mother to a funeral?

We don't live in a police state. People expect the cops to exercise discretion and most of the time, they do. Long may it continue.

Claw Hammer

coylemj wrote: »

A woman on the school run with a car load of kids? Someone driving his elderly mother to a funeral?

We don't live in a police state. People expect the cops to exercise discretion and most of the time, they do. Long may it continue.

What is to stop the woman carrying her licence, for the guy with the elderly mother? It's always these tug of the heart string cases that are cited when there is any attempt to have a rational regulations. I walked to school when I was a kid. A mother should be setting an example to her kids. She should not be committing an offence or offences by bringing them to school. The elderly mother should have brought her son up the carrier's driving licence and obey the law so if she doesn't make a funeral, it serves her right.

dense

GM228 wrote: »

Incorrect, it only applies if they are driving the appropriate vehicle at the time, for example a category D holder is subject to the lower limit if driving a category D vehicle, but not if driving a category B vehicle.

Thanks for that correction, the instructors at annual professional driver competency classes always make a point of saying it applies regardless of the vehicle being driven.



Someone in authority is obviously telling them this as it's usually beyond their abilities to figure something like that out for themselves.

jimmycrackcorm

coylemj wrote:

A woman on the school run with a car load of kids? Someone driving his elderly mother to a funeral?

We don't live in a police state. People expect the cops to exercise discretion and most of the time, they do. Long may it continue.

Customs do that if you're caught driving with green diesel or in a car with no Vrt paid .

In fact, an episode of stop, search, seize showed exactly that with a father bringing kids to school.

So we do indeed live in a customs state...

TheChizler

GM228 wrote: »

You can be arrested on suspicion of drink driving if they believe you are a novice driver, they will establish what type of licence you hold though quick enough.

That's all I was getting at, that they will err on the side of caution and apply the lower limit until they establish what license the driver holds. So they might have been looking for the license in order to figure out which limit to test to as another poster suggested.

GM228

TheChizler wrote: »

That's all I was getting at, that they will err on the side of caution and apply the lower limit until they establish what license the driver holds. So they might have been looking for the license in order to figure out which limit to test to as another poster suggested.

Generally they will test and then depending on the readings ask for a licence, if your between the lower and upper limit but can't then produce a licence you will be arrested on suspicion of drink driving. They usually do not ask for a licence at mandatory testing check points until you have a potential over the limit reading.

tuisginideach

A friend always carried his licence in his car. Car stolen - licence in it. Caused huge problems, among them being that he couldn't rent a replacement car without it.

GM228

dense wrote: »

Thanks for that correction, the instructors at annual professional driver competency classes always make a point of saying it applies regardless of the vehicle being driven.



Someone in authority is obviously telling them this as it's usually beyond their abilities to figure something like that out for themselves.

Or perhaps they are thinking that because most guides just say professional drivers (i.e drivers with category C, D etc) and they assume that means you are subject to the lower limit simply due to the fact you have a certain category on your licence.

Claw Hammer

tuisginideach wrote: »

A friend always carried his licence in his car. Car stolen - licence in it. Caused huge problems, among them being that he couldn't rent a replacement car without it.

A bit stupid?

Lmklad

The 10 days discretionary production is good law and the guard must give oral evidence in court as one of the offences is failure to produce.

It’s a sad state that we still have to power on the books, pop over to the UK and most of the traffic police have the onboard instant access computer with direct links to the drivers licence issuing authority. It makes the production section unnecessary as the officer can see, at the time of stopping, the type of licence held and any disqualifications etc, at a glance.

GM228

Lmklad wrote: »

The 10 days discretionary production is good law and the guard must give oral evidence in court as one of the offences is failure to produce.

It’s a sad state that we still have to power on the books, pop over to the UK and most of the traffic police have the onboard instant access computer with direct links to the drivers licence issuing authority. It makes the production section unnecessary as the officer can see, at the time of stopping, the type of licence held and any disqualifications etc, at a glance.

Limerick RPU Gardaí have a special Garda app on their phones which provides all that information, it is to be rolled out nationally in due course, the driver licence database will also be integrated into the ANPR system in 2019.

markpb

Claw Hammer wrote: »

A bit stupid?

Which bit is stupid?

seagull

I'm presuming it would be - Leaving important documents in a car. 2 possibilities where this can cause major issues
1. car stolen. Your friend has experienced that one
2. Car accident resulting in injury. Driver goes one way, car goes another. Who knows what happens to contents of car.

seamus

seagull wrote: »

I'm presuming it would be - Leaving important documents in a car. 2 possibilities where this can cause major issues

Would be relatively common though. The old licences were always way too big to fit in a wallet, so in order to have your licence while driving, the easiest thing to do was to throw it in your glovebox so it was always there.

Now though there's no excuse really. It fits in a wallet, so you can always have it on you.

Claw Hammer

seamus wrote: »

Would be relatively common though. The old licences were always way too big to fit in a wallet, so in order to have your licence while driving, the easiest thing to do was to throw it in your glovebox so it was always there.

Now though there's no excuse really. It fits in a wallet, so you can always have it on you.

I have the old licence and it fits in my wallet!

seamus

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I have the old licence and it fits in my pocket!

In your pocket but not in your wallet. You still have to remember to put it in your pocket when you're going for a drive. The new one is in my wallet and so is always with me regardless. I don't have to remember it, ever.

Claw Hammer

seamus wrote: »

In your pocket but not in your wallet. You still have to remember to put it in your pocket when you're going for a drive. The new one is in my wallet and so is always with me regardless. I don't have to remember it, ever.

I have corrected that post, it fits in my wallet.

Eggs For Dinner

markpb wrote: »

Which bit is stupid?

Leaving a licence in a car. It's not that big to carry on your person

markpb

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Leaving a licence in a car. It's not that big to carry on your person

Just because you can do something does not make something else stupid. What exactly is the problem with leaving a licence in the car? The only realistic problem anyone has raised so far is being unable to hire a replacement car while the license is being replaced.

Claw Hammer

markpb wrote: »

Just because you can do something does not make something else stupid. What exactly is the problem with leaving a licence in the car? The only realistic problem anyone has raised so far is being unable to hire a replacement car while the license is being replaced.

What about driving any other car, such as the car of a family member or friend?