Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

PCros

OU812 wrote: »

Quick question.

Friend is supposed to travel from the UK to Dublin on Friday 3rd August. How soon will he find out if his flight is affected or are ALL flights cancelled?

Probably not until the Tuesday or Wednesday before.

That day might sting with it being a bank holiday weekend but I'm sure Ryanair saw that one coming.

deaddonkey15

Turnipman wrote: »

So what? Either the figures quoted are correct or they're not.



It took my missus (a teacher) 26 years to reach the maximum point of her pay scale as a teacher. Your point?



But that's precisely what it is.



Kindly post up some coherent arguments - not the hysterical tosh quoted above - in support of that risible claim.

Someone's been drinking the kool-aid.

Bob24

Turnipman wrote: »

So what?  Either the figures quoted are correct or they're not.

A figure can be correct and irrelevant though. 
If they wanted to give the public an idea of how much a typical pilot is being paid for what type of work, they would have published the median  value for an Irish FTE pilot's base salary, and separately the median value for extra payments explaining what proportion of these extra payments corresponds to what type of activity. Posting a total figure on a payslip where most information is redacted doesn't give much information.

BBG

I was taking my scouts on annual camp to Switzerland (flying to Belgium) on the 3rd August. 1 years's planning & fund raising could be down the drain. Currently looking into other options but I have no idea where to start. :eek:

Any suggestions more than welcome!

Bob24

BBG wrote: »

I was taking my scouts on annual camp to Switzerland (flying to Belgium) on the 3rd August. 1 years's planning & fund raising could be down the drain. Currently looking into other options but I have no idea where to start. :eek:

Any suggestions more than welcome!

This thread is related to Ryanair's industrial relations with there staff, for strike implications on passengers see there:  https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057787510

TheRiverman

Amazing how quiet Micheal O'Leary has gone.He hasn't been seen or heard in the media for some time.

NH2013

Turnipman wrote: »

So what? Either the figures quoted are correct or they're not.



It took my missus (a teacher) 26 years to reach the maximum point of her pay scale as a teacher. Your point?



But that's precisely what it is.



Kindly post up some coherent arguments - not the hysterical tosh quoted above - in support of that risible claim.

It’s like saying a Tesco shop worker could earn up to €50,000, and post a half redacted pay slip of the shop manager, showing earnings of €50K. And if called out then they say that management positions are open to all workers. Median salary would be a much more accurate measurement of salary.

That of course is seperate from this issue which is about a transparent basing agreement and nothing to do with salary, 1,100 pilots didn’t leave Ryanair last year because they could get a better salary elsewhere, they left due to the culture and the way they were being treated.

rivegauche

NH2013 wrote: »

they left due to the culture and the way they were being treated.

That is your opinion and while Ryanair may not have been the best place to work a large portion were being poached with higher pay elsewhere.
Pay has been improved. If with improved pay they can't mostly retain the staff they wish to retain then you will be correct.

Bazzy

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

That always annoys me, when this is raised. How is that relevant? Everyone pays taxes.

its very relevant someone earning that salary will pay a significant amount of tax compared to the average industrial wage?

The big figure is great but people need to realise in reality that individual may only be taking home 50 odd % of it.

Try not to be too annoyed

Widdensushi

Bazzy wrote: »

its very relevant someone earning that salary will pay a significant amount of tax compared to the average industrial wage?

The big figure is great but people need to realise in reality that individual may only be taking home 50 odd % of it.

Try not to be too annoyed

So get a paycut and pay less tax,of course people realise that but we either have to compare salaries before tax or after it,not compare one before and the other after,the easiest figure to compare is before and therefore not confuse matters

CoisFharraige

Turnipman wrote: »

So what? Either the figures quoted are correct or they're not.



It took my missus (a teacher) 26 years to reach the maximum point of her pay scale as a teacher. Your point?



But that's precisely what it is.



Kindly post up some coherent arguments - not the hysterical tosh quoted above - in support of that risible claim.

OK then - if you want to argue about it.

What do you mean either they're correct or not? They're correct in an ambiguously-skewed way. That's like saying workers in the DAA can enjoy up to 300K a year, and just providing the CEO's payslip. Yes, someone earns that, but Ryanair say their pilots earn that figure, when in reality maybe 1 per base does.

My point is that you cannot quote the salary of a captain who's been working for 20 years in the company and label it as 'this is what our pilots across the network enjoy', when it's a ridiculously tiny minority! Do you not see how unrepresentative that is of all pilots?

Hope my hysterical tosh didn't cause you too much grief x

I can never understand the logic behind strikes. People take jobs. They know the wage structure and terms of employment. Then a few years later reject those terms, conditions and salaries and strike to get their way. If they’re not happy with their working conditions, then leave and let someone who wants to work do the job.

LeChienMefiant

Bazzy wrote: »

its very relevant someone earning that salary will pay a significant amount of tax compared to the average industrial wage?

The big figure is great but people need to realise in reality that individual may only be taking home 50 odd % of it.

Try not to be too annoyed

Again, irrelevant. Nothing to do with the employer. Doesn't evoke any sympathy.

Highest marginal rate is 51%? You'd need to be earning millions to lose 50% of your wage to tax.

EDIT: If these guys hate paying so much tax then go self employed and use tax avoidance techniques.

Bob24

Deleted User wrote: »

I can never understand the logic behind strikes. People take jobs. They know the wage structure and terms of employment. Then a few years later reject those terms, conditions and salaries and strike to get their way. If they’re not happy with their working conditions, then leave and let someone who wants to work do the job.

2 reasons amongst others to help you understand:
- inflation reduces the value of money, so when you take a job all you know if the pay is competitive today, the current wage structure won't tell you whatsoever if it will be competitive in 5 or 10 years (inflation combined to no or low pay rise is effectively a pay cut). 
- you seem to be assuming that terms of employment are set in stone and it is illegitimate for either employers or employees to seek changes. It is not the way things work in practise and for the better or the worse there is a constant power struggle (and it is fine that way, otherwise nothing could ever change).

TheRiverman

Deleted User wrote: »

I can never understand the logic behind strikes. People take jobs. They know the wage structure and terms of employment. Then a few years later reject those terms, conditions and salaries and strike to get their way. If they’re not happy with their working conditions, then leave and let someone who wants to work do the job.

The simplicity of life ?

Padraig Mor

CoisFharraige wrote: »

My point is that you cannot quote the salary of a captain who's been working for 20 years in the company and label it as 'this is what our pilots across the network enjoy', when it's a ridiculously tiny minority! Do you not see how unrepresentative that is of all pilots? x

I was under the impression that the striking pilots were the most senior of the Irish staff and all/most captains? Thus, if your suggestions are correct (and of course you have no clue whether they are or not), would the pay slips not be at least somewhat representative of the striking pilots?

Widdensushi

Deleted User wrote: »

I can never understand the logic behind strikes. People take jobs. They know the wage structure and terms of employment. Then a few years later reject those terms, conditions and salaries and strike to get their way. If they’re not happy with their working conditions, then leave and let someone who wants to work do the job.

Greed sets in,the more they get the more they want

Widdensushi

Bob24 wrote: »

2 reasons amongst others to help you understand:
- inflation reduces the value of money, so when you take a job all you know if the pay is competitive today, the current wage structure won't tell you whatsoever if it will be competitive in 5 or 10 years (inflation combined to no or low pay rise is effectively a pay cut). 
- you seem to be assuming that terms of employment are set in stone and it is illegitimate for either employers or employees to seek changes. It is not the way things work in practise and for the better or the worse there is a constant power struggle (and it is fine that way, otherwise nothing could ever change).

Are you trying to make out that ryanair staff wages are rising slower than inflation?

Bob24

Padraig Mor wrote: »

CoisFharraige wrote: »

My point is that you cannot quote the salary of a captain who's been working for 20 years in the company and label it as 'this is what our pilots across the network enjoy', when it's a ridiculously tiny minority! Do you not see how unrepresentative that is of all pilots? x

I was under the impression that the striking pilots were the most senior of the Irish staff and all/most captains? Thus, if your suggestions are correct (and of course you have no clue whether they are or not), would the pay slips not be at least somewhat representative of the striking pilots?

Pretty much all Irish pilots who are Ryanair employees are striking. Not just the most senior ones.

Bob24

Widdensushi wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

2 reasons amongst others to help you understand:
- inflation reduces the value of money, so when you take a job all you know if the pay is competitive today, the current wage structure won't tell you whatsoever if it will be competitive in 5 or 10 years (inflation combined to no or low pay rise is effectively a pay cut). 
- you seem to be assuming that terms of employment are set in stone and it is illegitimate for either employers or employees to seek changes. It is not the way things work in practise and for the better or the worse there is a constant power struggle (and it is fine that way, otherwise nothing could ever change).

Are you trying to make out that ryanair staff wages are rising slower than inflation?

No, I am just addressing Maryanne84's comment I was quoting about not understanding why people (in general) might strike.

CoisFharraige

Padraig Mor wrote: »

CoisFharraige wrote: »

My point is that you cannot quote the salary of a captain who's been working for 20 years in the company and label it as 'this is what our pilots across the network enjoy', when it's a ridiculously tiny minority! Do you not see how unrepresentative that is of all pilots? x

I was under the impression that the striking pilots were the most senior of the Irish staff and all/most captains? Thus, if your suggestions are correct (and of course you have no clue whether they are or not), would the pay slips not be at least somewhat representative of the striking pilots?

Do I not have a clue? God I didn’t know that. No, the payslips are not representative of what a ryanair captain with or without sector pay and allowances earns. Doesn’t bother me if you believe me or not.

Peter File

BBG wrote: »

I was taking my scouts on annual camp to Switzerland (flying to Belgium) on the 3rd August. 1 years's planning & fund raising could be down the drain. Currently looking into other options but I have no idea where to start. :eek:

Any suggestions more than welcome!

It is only flights to the U.K that have been affected so far so you should be ok

A319er

Today FR evening Brussels flight cancelled due cab in crew strike in Belgium,
Impact is more than U.K. , hopefully all the striking countries and management
Will resolve there issues by August, I can only suggest looking at coach ferry option for a group that nay be price sensitive, good luck.

CoisFharraige

https://twitter.com/BALPApilots/status/1022138028654034945 Really interesting tweet by BALPA. They clearly state that despite the meaningless 'recognition agreement' with Ryanair, they've yet to actually get any sort of negotiation from management! Really brings an end to Ryanair's whole ''Why can't Irish pilots negotiate with us like the UK?'' when they've just dismissed BALPA's proposals. The hypocrisy is actually surreal to me! Ask one crowd, 'Hey, why can't you be like them? They're enjoying union negotiations with us and are making great progress!' and then turning to the British pilots and saying 'Ridiculous, we're not taking those proposals'. I mean who are they fooling?

Mebuntu

Well, at least they didn't, so far anyway, immediately rush into getting their placards out and ruining the travel plans of their customers unlike their Irish counterparts. (touching mountains of wood )

"We have submitted several proposals, including ones to bring an end to a fragmented pay structure, reduce the number of contract pilots and the acceptance of seniority. Ryanair has so far failed to accept any of these proposals."

It is very hard to see how this can ever be satisfactorily resolved IF the airline believes that giving into these demands is going to cause damage to a business model that has proved so successful.

Peter File

CoisFharraige wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BALPApilots/status/1022138028654034945 Really interesting tweet by BALPA. They clearly state that despite the meaningless 'recognition agreement' with Ryanair, they've yet to actually get any sort of negotiation from management! Really brings an end to Ryanair's whole ''Why can't Irish pilots negotiate with us like the UK?'' when they've just dismissed BALPA's proposals. The hypocrisy is actually surreal to me! Ask one crowd, 'Hey, why can't you be like them? They're enjoying union negotiations with us and are making great progress!' and then turning to the British pilots and saying 'Ridiculous, we're not taking those proposals'. I mean who are they fooling?

The company does not have to accept any proposals from a union recognised or not. The unions don't run the airline

CoisFharraige

Peter File wrote: »

The company does not have to accept any proposals from a union recognised or not. The unions don't run the airline

I never said they do. As someone who's parents' company was shafted by unions I'd like to think I have a good insight into both sides. Of course they don't have to accept them, that's not what I'm saying. I'm remarking at the fact that they're meaninglessly recognising these unions and trying to spin off a completely false picture of themselves all whilst playing bully games with crews.

LuckyLloyd

Employees are fully entitled to exploit perceived leverage; employers are fully entitled to refuse those demands. Who will blink first here? Ryanair are obviously hoping that the disconnected nature of unions in different states within which they operate will be crucial.

The only thing that's obvious to me is that booking a flight with Ryanair right now is madness. Plenty of competition out there to choose from.

billy few mates

I don't think too many of the pilots would be too bothered about the latest escalation, it may well suit any of them who might be thinking of moving on anyway as redundancy will mean a nice pay off.
It's not like they wouldn't have foreseen this action before they voted for strike.
Redundancy is a highly regulated process, by law it will have to be transparent, they must know they can't arbitrarily select people for redundancy without following a strict set of protocols and they certainly can't use it as a method of 'settling scores' against people who engages in a lawful industrial action.
It also makes it very interesting for those people on training bonds, if you're made redundant your training bond is wiped out, also from a legal point of view I don't believe a company can hold you to a training bond while at the same time placing you on protective notice, ie they can't threaten to take away your job and at the same time stop you from leaving it!
They'll also be aware that it's the job that becomes redundant not the person, employment law doesn't allow you to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else because then it would be considered constructive dismissal.
The union have had seven months to prepare for this series of strikes, one would imagine every possible reaction would have been considered and planned for, today's announcement would have been no surprise.

Brendan Bendar

CoisFharraige wrote: »

I never said they do. As someone who's parents' company was shafted by unions I'd like to think I have a good insight into both sides. Of course they don't have to accept them, that's not what I'm saying. I'm remarking at the fact that they're meaninglessly recognising these unions and trying to spin off a completely false picture of themselves all whilst playing bully games with crews.

Playing bully games.

And the unions are are not playing “bully games” with the company?

And the passengers?

A little less emotive language and you might garner some sympathy.