Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

northknife

Was just thinking and maybe its been mentioned here before, but as all other Ryanair employees outside of Ireland are on Irish contracts and terms of employment, would that mean that those striking in Spain and Portugal wouldn't have to adhere to their own countries laws about maintaining a reasonable service to the public whilst on strike.


If this was the case then the unions could cause massive disruption to the Ryanair service.

CoisFharraige

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Playing bully games.

And the unions are are not playing “bully games” with the company?

And the passengers?

A little less emotive language and you might garner some sympathy.

I'm not sure if you're aware of some of the things Ryanair has done to its crew, harrasment, bullying, exploitation etc. I think that they far outweigh what the union is doing with the airline. Not wishing to garner any sympathy from you but appreciate your concern.

CoisFharraige

CoisFharraige wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're aware of some of the things Ryanair has done to its crew, harrasment, bullying, exploitation etc. I think that they far outweigh what the union is doing with the airline. Not wishing to garner any sympathy from you but appreciate your concern.

If they cannot stand the heat, what the hell are they doing staying in the kitchen??

Brendan Bendar

CoisFharraige wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're aware of some of the things Ryanair has done to its crew, harrasment, bullying, exploitation etc. I think that they far outweigh what the union is doing with the airline. Not wishing to garner any sympathy from you but appreciate your concern.

When are these cases coming to court.?

CoisFharraige

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

When are these cases coming to court.?

Ryanair loses EU court battle to keep Irish law for crew abroad - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryanair-crew-court/ryanair-loses-eu-court-battle-to-keep-irish-law-for-crew-abroad-idUSKCN1BP0VM

Ryanair made injured employee pay for flight home after fall and offer no medical assistance - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/ryanair-made-injured-employee-pay-for-flight-home-after-fall-1.3561338

Ryanair fires 4 crew members who refused to fly due to fatigue after a 13hr shift being extended to 16hrs - https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0713/978358-ryanair/

Bob24

I'd be interested in knowing how many of the people who call Ryanair a decent employer here would actually take a job with the company in their own line of work without being forced to.

Working in IT myself and I have a few times received LinkedIn emails with jobs at Ryanair in my area of expertise - and just that employer name is enough for me to not even consider the job because from what I know about the company I am fairly sure it would be a very bad work environement (it is not the only company which would have that effect, but they are in a minority). And I suspect that if it came to their own personal life most posters on here would feel the same.

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

I don't think too many of the pilots would be too bothered about the latest escalation, it may well suit any of them who might be thinking of moving on anyway as redundancy will mean a nice pay off.

You aren't much a mind-reader. The pilots would now be sweating and thinking what other airline in Dublin Airport will hire a 737 pilot or am I going to have to relocate to US/Europe/China/Middle East, join another airline at the very end of a long seniority queue...or do you think Norwegian is going to hire them all to fly to Stewart?
what is the statutory redundancy? 2 weeks per year of service. That won't go far when there are monthly PCPs and mortgages on houses needing to be paid.

P_1

TBH I don't think it's fair on the cabin crew here. I mean I'd imagine the pilots can afford to take the hit on losing a days pay but can the cabin crew who has had no say on them losing a day's pay in this instance?

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

You aren't much a mind-reader. The pilots would now be sweating and thinking what other airline in Dublin Airport will hire a 737 pilot or am I going to have to relocate to US/Europe/China/Middle East, join another airline at the very end of a long seniority queue...or do you think Norwegian is going to hire them all to fly to Stewart?
what is the statutory redundancy? 2 weeks per year of service. That won't go far when there are monthly PCPs and mortgages on houses needing to be paid.

I guess they’ll probably call off the strike for Friday week so...?

Mebuntu

Just been watching The Tonight Show on TV3

Not much sympathy from the panel for the striking pilots there except, predictably, from some bloke labelled as being from "Solidarity". He says he was on the picket line and discovered that the pilots were far from earning 200K. 80K was more like it and he doesn't want to be flying through thunderstorms with, wait for it, "yellowpack pilots" at the controls!

ted1

Mebuntu wrote: »

Just been watching The Tonight Show on TV3

Not much sympathy from the panel for the striking pilots there except, predictably, from some bloke labelled as being from "Solidarity". He says he was on the picket line and discovered that the pilots were far from earning 200K. 80K was more like it and he doesn't want to be flying through thunderstorms with, wait for it, "yellowpack pilots" at the controls!

If they deny it then let’s see the present a p60 or payslip.

Of course they’ll down play their earnings.

Topgear on Dave

Yeah.... Id wonder if Mick Barry from Solidarity coming out in support of the pilots is a good thing or a sign of doom for their campaign :pac:

Brendan Bendar

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Ryanair loses EU court battle to keep Irish law for crew abroad - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryanair-crew-court/ryanair-loses-eu-court-battle-to-keep-irish-law-for-crew-abroad-idUSKCN1BP0VM

Ryanair made injured employee pay for flight home after fall and offer no medical assistance - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/ryanair-made-injured-employee-pay-for-flight-home-after-fall-1.3561338

Ryanair fires 4 crew members who refused to fly due to fatigue after a 13hr shift being extended to 16hrs - https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0713/978358-ryanair/

Hmm I note Ryanair dispute two of those issues and to be honest every big airline would have a series of court cases like that.

That said they seem to have a major staff morale issue.

Wouldn’t be an outfit I’d like to work for.

Brendan Bendar

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Yeah.... Id wonder if Mick Barry from Solidarity coming out in support of the pilots is a good thing or a sign of doom for their campaign :pac:

Barry and his cohort were on every picket line up to this, and they will be on every picket line in the future, so it basically means nothing.

notharrypotter

ted1 wrote: »

If they deny it then let’s see the present a p60 or payslip.

Of course they’ll down play their earnings.

Not to downplay your argument but producing a P60 or payslip will solve nothing.


In my employment should there be a dispute one of the first things my employer will do is "selectively" leak earnings.
There are about 10/15 of my colleagues who do a significant amount of overtime.


Their salaries would be quoted as the "norm" an most commentators will not bother with trying to see where the real "norm" exists.


Far too often commentators judge without knowing much of the intricate detail of a dispute.
Often "Experts" may have general knowledge of the industry but a peripheral knowledge of what actually happening between the parties involved.



People love soundbites and banner headlines.
Far easier than having to read several pages of detail.

Mebuntu

Interesting article in the Irish Times this morning by a director of Goodbody Stockbrokers:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ryanair-must-stand-strong-against-strikers-1.3576221

notharrypotter

Mebuntu wrote: »

Interesting article in the Irish Times this morning by a director of Goodbody Stockbrokers:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ryanair-must-stand-strong-against-strikers-1.3576221

Last line of said article

Joe Gill is director of corporate broking with Goodbody Stockbrokers. His views are personal

Proof positive of "Experts" who get quoted, while may have some knowledge of the industry and are good for a soundbite or two,

strettyend

Think this strike is going to escalate big time. can see other unions in other countries following suit and rightly so. Ryanair staff have had poor working conditions (to say the least) for many years and had no voice. Finally they are standing up to ryanair and demanding what is rightfully theirs. Ryanair threatening to pull aircraft out of dulin is typical ryanair bullying tactics but if they think they will frighten the union off they are making a big mistake.

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

I guess they’ll probably call off the strike for Friday week so...?

Strategically, it might be best. Amongst the previous Strikers are a portion who absolutely can't afford to be looking for a new position or moving abroad and they will be top of the queue to make themselves available for duty on the day of the next strike. If the number of picketers drops from 100 to 50 then that looks bad for the Union.
I wouldn't have called that additional day of strike but then again I'm not an Aer Lingus shop steward so my point of view isn't the same as that of the people who are directing strategy within the Pilots group in Ryanair.

marvin80

strettyend wrote: »

Think this strike is going to escalate big time. can see other unions in other countries following suit and rightly so. Ryanair staff have had poor working conditions (to say the least) for many years and had no voice. Finally they are standing up to ryanair and demanding what is rightfully theirs. Ryanair threatening to pull aircraft out of dulin is typical ryanair bullying tactics but if they think they will frighten the union off they are making a big mistake.

I can't see it ending well for either side to be honest. Have flights booked in September with Ryanair but any other flights I require I'll be looking elsewhere, which is a pity because I was always happy with their service and especially their prices.

Padraig Mor

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Do I not have a clue? God I didn’t know that.

No, you don't seem to. You say that "Regarding the payslips, I can guarantee you that they are all from the base captains / extremely high-ranked pilots in each base but, let's face it, you can't guarantee this can you? In fact, you have no idea whose payslips they are? Your posts clearly show you to be a union lickspittle who will deny any truth which you don't like. I'm not naive enough to think that the posted payslips represent average pay (~€200k) for the strikers, but I'd have little hesitation believing that the average is €130k - €150k. Plenty of people have little sympathy for such well paid (note I did not say overpaid) people attacking the travelling public and their own lesser paid colleagues in order to feather their nest a bit more.

No, the payslips are not representative of what a ryanair captain with or without sector pay and allowances earns. Doesn’t bother me if you believe me or not.

If they're not representative of what a captain earns, whose payslips are they then? Did Ryanair fake them? Are they Mick's?

CoisFharraige

Padraig Mor wrote: »

No, you don't seem to. You say that "Regarding the payslips, I can guarantee you that they are all from the base captains / extremely high-ranked pilots in each base but, let's face it, you can't guarantee this can you? In fact, you have no idea whose payslips they are? Your posts clearly show you to be a union lickspittle who will deny any truth which you don't like. I'm not naive enough to think that the posted payslips represent average pay (~€200k) for the strikers, but I'd have little hesitation believing that the average is €130k - €150k. Plenty of people have little sympathy for such well paid (note I did not say overpaid) people attacking the travelling public and their own lesser paid colleagues in order to feather their nest a bit more.

If they're not representative of what a captain earns, whose payslips are they then? Did Ryanair fake them? Are they Mick's?

Yes, I can guarantee that they are from the top-earning pilots in each base, because the top of the scale (TRE, LTC, BC) maxes out at €155,500. A non LTC (so the vast majority) will, with all allowances, productivity bonuses (don't call in sick!), and sector pay be about €80/90k short of O'Leary's quoted 200K salary p.a. (These figures are readily available if you know where to look.)


So, I'll say again, no they are not representative of what a captain earns. If the max a captain can go is the bottom of the ''O'Leary scale'', then I hope that answers it for you. I'm not saying that they aren't incredibly well paid, but what I am saying is that Ryanair is publishing completely misleading facts about their crews to the public, once again showcasing their blame game.

LeChienMefiant

CoisFharraige wrote: »

(These figures are readily available if you know where to look.)

Why keep them secret so? Enlighten us.

Turnipman

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Barry and his cohort were on every picket line up to this, and they will be on every picket line in the future, so it basically means nothing.

When there are two pickets on at the same time, does Barry employ a body double?

Turnipman

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Yes, I can guarantee that they are from the top-earning pilots in each base, because the top of the scale (TRE, LTC, BC) maxes out at €155,500. A non LTC (so the vast majority) will, with all allowances, productivity bonuses (don't call in sick!)
.....
what I am saying is that Ryanair is publishing completely misleading facts about their crews to the public, once again showcasing their blame game.

If you're sick then you shouldn't be flying a plane.

And if you're implicitly suggesting that Ryanair obliges sick pilots to fly aircraft (which is evidently in breach of some pretty basic health and safety regulations) then you'd better be 100% certain of your facts.

But perhaps you're just helping your Forsa pals with some sympathetic spin?

CoisFharraige

Turnipman wrote: »

If you're sick then you shouldn't be flying a plane.

And if you're implicitly suggesting that Ryanair obliges sick pilots to fly aircraft (which is evidently in breach of some pretty basic health and safety regulations) then you'd better be 100% certain of your facts.

But perhaps you're just helping your Forsa pals with some sympathetic spin?

I didn't say or suggest that. I implied that you won't get your productivity bonus if you call in sick. I would have presumed that most people here would be aware of the abuse/threats whatever you want to call it, just look at any documentary ever made on them, and there are several pilots admitting that they have flown sick/fatigued due to threatened disciplinary action.

Let's take this as an example, the 4 cabin crew who were fired because they weren't allowed to decide whether or not they can operate due to fatigue according to their manager https://prnt.sc/kb9ae9 And before you suggest that there's a difference between cabin crew and pilots, the principle is the same - denying your crew the choice to not operate (even FOs cannot decide).

LeChienMefiant

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Let's take this as an example, the 4 cabin crew who were fired because they weren't allowed to decide whether or not they can operate due to fatigue according to their manager https://prnt.sc/kb9ae9 And before you suggest that there's a difference between cabin crew and pilots, the principle is the same - denying your crew the choice to not operate (even FOs cannot decide).

That's not what the memo says.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Strategically, it might be best. Amongst the previous Strikers are a portion who absolutely can't afford to be looking for a new position or moving abroad and they will be top of the queue to make themselves available for duty on the day of the next strike. If the number of picketers drops from 100 to 50 then that looks bad for the Union.
I wouldn't have called that additional day of strike but then again I'm not an Aer Lingus shop steward so my point of view isn't the same as that of the people who are directing strategy within the Pilots group in Ryanair.

There won't be any redundancies, they have an expanding fleet and a shortage of pilots, they wouldn't be allowed to make anyone redundant while at the same time actively recruiting.
Ironically enough if they were to reduce pilot numbers the contractors would be first to go. There wouldn't be a union in any industry that would stand idly by while permanent employees were being laid off while there was a single contractor on the books. Thats the whole raison d'etre for employing contractors in the first place...

LeChienMefiant

billy few mates wrote: »

There won't be any redundancies, they have an expanding fleet and a shortage of pilots, they wouldn't be allowed to make anyone redundant while at the same time actively recruiting.

Ireland and Poland are different markets/jurisdictions. Also, it's obvious that their business is being affected so there are genuine reasons.

billy few mates wrote: »

Ironically enough if they were to reduce pilot numbers the contractors would be first to go. There wouldn't be a union in any industry that would stand idly by while permanent employees were being laid off while there was a single contractor on the books. Thats the whole raison d'etre for employing contractors in the first place...

Contractors should be more footloose I would expect. Also, there is no direct cost (other than replacement) in letting them go.

billy few mates

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Ireland and Poland are different markets/jurisdictions. Also, it's obvious that their business is being affected so there are genuine reasons.

Contractors should be more footloose I would expect. Also, there is no direct cost (other than replacement) in letting them go.

I'm sure there are genuine reasons and the company can obviously do whatever they feel they must to deal with the situation. I'm just pointing out the fact that they can't make pilots redundant while they're actively recruiting for pilots and if the time ever comes that they have to reduce pilot numbers they can only start reducing permanent employees once they've got rid of the contract staff.
In this industry contractors have always been a barometer of job security for permanent employees, ie as long as there are contractors on the books the permanent positions are secure.
If they're employed on Irish contracts Irish employment law applies regardless of the base or market..