Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

There won't be any redundancies, they have an expanding fleet and a shortage of pilots, they wouldn't be allowed to make anyone redundant while at the same time actively recruiting.
Ironically enough if they were to reduce pilot numbers the contractors would be first to go. There wouldn't be a union in any industry that would stand idly by while permanent employees were being laid off while there was a single contractor on the books. Thats the whole raison d'etre for employing contractors in the first place...

If my company could make members of my team on Irish contracts in Ireland redundant while hiring for the same team in Germany then Ryanair definitely can make employees redundant in Ireland.
Their expanding fleet can be placed in another jurisdiction and fly in to Ireland to service Irish routes through the day and pilots are replaceable if Ryanair are willing to pay market or above market terms and conditions which they appear to be willing to do now for flexible staff.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

If my company could make members of my team on Irish contracts in Ireland redundant while hiring for the same team in Germany then Ryanair definitely can make employees redundant in Ireland.
Their expanding fleet can be placed in another jurisdiction and fly in to Ireland to service Irish routes through the day and pilots are replaceable if Ryanair are willing to pay market or above market terms and conditions which they appear to be willing to do now for flexible staff.

I'm guessing the event you describe above only happened in your head in an attempt to to give credibility to your argument on the internet because its a clear breach of redundancy legislation in Ireland.
There are a strict set of criteria that must be observed before an employer can make anyone redundant and selecting people for redundancy for having taken part in a legal industrial dispute is not allowed.
Also, as I've said before it's the job that becomes redundant so you can't get rid of 100 people and replace them with 100 other people. It's a thin line between redundancy and unfair (or constructive) dismissal.
This isn't opinion or rhetoric, it's fact but don't take my word for it, inform yourself...

rivegauche

No. didn't happen in my head. I'm the only Paddy left in the organisation.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

No. didn't happen in my head. I'm the only Paddy left in the organisation.

I'm sure there's a very interesting but irrelevant story in there somewhere, you should totally start another thread to tell us all about it some day. I'm just trying to point out the events you describe (real or imagined) couldn't happen in this situation...

LeChienMefiant

billy few mates wrote: »

I'm sure there's a very interesting but irrelevant story in there somewhere, you should totally start another thread to tell us all about it some day. I'm just trying to point out the events you describe (real or imagined) couldn't happen in this situation...

Has happened in my organisation too. Jobs moved to UK. They may or may not be the same jobs in the strictest legal sense. But for all intents and purposes they are the same jobs.

billy few mates

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Has happened in my organisation too. Jobs moved to UK. They may or may not be the same jobs in the strictest legal sense. But for all intents and purposes they are the same jobs.

That's all covered by Irish and EU law (Protection of Employees on Transfer of Undertakings) Regulations 2003), they can move the jobs wherever they want but they have to offer the employees the option to take up those jobs.
In this case I'm explaining why there won't be any redundancies.

LeChienMefiant

billy few mates wrote: »

That's all covered by Irish and EU law (Protection of Employees on Transfer of Undertakings) Regulations 2003), they can move the jobs wherever they want but they have to offer the employees the option to take up those jobs.
In this case I'm explaining why there won't be any redundancies.

I believe this may have happened in my organisation. Didn't Ryanair already say they were offering the Polish jobs to Irish staff? This was in the original announcement.

billy few mates

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

I believe this may have happened in my organisation. Didn't Ryanair already say they were offering the Polish jobs to Irish staff? This was in the original announcement.

Nothing new in that then, this is something they've always been able to do and have done in the past to respond to seasonal demand and changing markets.
Some people are getting hysterical about redundancies.

rivegauche

...and you are too blasé.
these are peoples' livelyhoods and they've been led on a merry dance by outsiders who wish to inflict pain on Ryanair as a company.
There are two types of Socialists; those who want to improve the lot of the poor and disadvantaged and those who want to drag the big man down. Which are you.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

...and you are too blasé.
these are peoples' livelyhoods and they've been led on a merry dance by outsiders who wish to inflict pain on Ryanair as a company.
There are two types of Socialists; those who want to improve the lot of the poor and disadvantaged and those who want to drag the big man down. Which are you.

Wasn't that you that was warning them they were never going to see their children again if they went on strike just a few pages back...?
Weren't you warned about trolling back then and asked to leave...?

rivegauche

obviously and regrettably if the things I predicted are coming to pass then I wasn't trolling.
Your arguments are falling asunder around you.

billy few mates

Which of your predictions have come to pass...?

Tenger

lets all ensure that we focus on the content of the posts rather than the poster themselves

Turnipman

Given that the pilots' industrial dispute isn't about pay (or so we are being told) why does it matter what pay scales Ryanair releases or who does or doesn't earn them?

Brendan Bendar

Turnipman wrote: »

Given that the pilots' industrial dispute isn't about pay (or so we are being told) why does it matter what pay scales Ryanair releases or who does or doesn't earn them?

Airline pilots route for promotion has always been about seniority and it’s been seen that dudes have been passed out as Captains, flown one or two flights in that capacity,and retired the next day on a captains pension.

It’s important dude, very important.

Go figure.

Nothing wrong or underhand about that or anything.

All above board and in accordance with regulations.

Turnipman

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Airline pilots route for promotion has always been about seniority and it’s been seen that dudes have been passed out as Captains, flown one or two flights in that capacity,and retired the next day on a captains pension.

It’s important dude, very important. Go figure.

Nothing wrong or underhand about that or anything.

All above board and in accordance with regulations.

So you're saying that the strike is about pensions? Or about pilot promotions to posts which are worth more pay?

But Forsa is insisting that the strike isn't about money - is it possible that they're telling porkies? Surely not? Bernard Harbour has a very honest face!

Furthermore, if it's really all about pay then I'd expect RTE's Ingrid Miley to have told us so.

Brendan Bendar

Turnipman wrote: »

So you're saying that the strike is about pensions? Or about pilot promotions to posts which are worth more pay?

But Forsa is insisting that the strike isn't about money - is it possible that they're telling porkies? Surely not? Bernard Harbour has a very honest face!

Furthermore, if it's really all about pay then I'd expect RTE's Ingrid Miley to have told us so.

I’m just putting it out there, big man.

Is it right or is it wrong.

notharrypotter

Turnipman wrote: »

Given that the pilots' industrial dispute isn't about pay (or so we are being told) why does it matter what pay scales Ryanair releases or who does or doesn't earn them?

Strangely most private sector employees probably view their salary as been a matter between them and their employer.
Depending on many factors salary can vary from person to person and from time to time throughout the year.

So selecting editing and selection of suitable payrolls would be used to support the desired position.

The phrase "when you are explaining you are loosing" applies.

Ryanair have proven themselves adept at soundbites with a gullible and often technically lacking media swallowing hook line and sinker.
In this scenario the salary is a dream ticket for deliberate confusion of the issues.

So other than to sate the salacious curiosity of a few nosey parkers it would serve little real benefit.

notharrypotter

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Airline pilots route for promotion has always been about seniority and it’s been seen that dudes have been passed out as Captains, flown one or two flights in that capacity,and retired the next day on a captains pension.

It’s important dude, very important.

Go figure.

Nothing wrong or underhand about that or anything.

All above board and in accordance with regulations.

source?

billy few mates

It could be part of the spin tactics to try and divert public sympathy away from the striking pilots, the ordinary Joe Soap on the AIW is hardly likely to have any sympathy for someone on €250k a year, that's almost banker wages..!
It's like the current directive that certain words and phrases have to be preceded with spin words in every tweet, statement and publication...
Aer Lingus pilots union
Unnecessary strike
Well paid pilots
Only 24% pilots strike
Etc etc...

View Profile

Lads!

The Dublin pilots were the ones who approached the Unions for guidance when this first kicked off last September. Management were putting the blame on pilots for these cancellations and the pilots said "enough"!!

Stop your hysterical paranoia nonsense about unions or "Aer Lingus" pilots trying to manipulate the situation as some type of vendetta!

This industrial dispute is about Respect and fair employment practices. That's it!!

LeChienMefiant

notharrypotter wrote: »

The phrase "when you are explaining you are loosing" applies.

Ryanair have proven themselves adept at soundbites with a gullible and often technically lacking media swallowing hook line and sinker.
In this scenario the salary is a dream ticket for deliberate confusion of the issues.

So other than to sate the salacious curiosity of a few nosey parkers it would serve little real benefit.

Sounds like they're winning. It's all about the meedja.

Brendan Bendar

notharrypotter wrote: »

source?

https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/pilot6.htm

View Profile

LeChienMefiant wrote:

Sounds like they're winning. It's all about the meedja.

Ryanair are winning the media sound bite battle at the moment. But it's not Joe public or the media who will bring change to the company, that's the Boards job!

Turnipman

billy few mates wrote: »

It's like the current directive that certain words and phrases have to be preceded with spin words in every tweet, statement and publication...
Aer Lingus pilots union
Unnecessary strike
Well paid pilots
Only 24% pilots strike
Etc etc...

Is that a Forsa directive?

Turnipman

View Profile wrote: »

The Dublin pilots were the ones who approached the Unions for guidance when this first kicked off last September. Management were putting the blame on pilots for these cancellations and the pilots said "enough"!!

Stop your hysterical paranoia nonsense about unions or "Aer Lingus" pilots trying to manipulate the situation as some type of vendetta!

This industrial dispute is about Respect and fair employment practices. That's it!!

And not about filthy lucre! Perish the thought! Shure Ryanair pilots are so well paid that trivial things like like money don't even enter their minds! Thanks for putting me straight about that!

All that they want is respect and fair play - and their Union "experts" have told them that giving up a few day's pay and demeaning themselves by walking round and round a roundabout waving placards in their best uniforms like a herd of deranged hamsters, will earn them more respect?

How on earth can so many highly skilled, well regarded professionals fall for such utter nonsense?

notharrypotter

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/pilot6.htm

Excellent deflection to an American site.

9 pages of my life I will not get back.
Still waiting for the source of your claim

and it’s been seen that dudes have been passed out as Captains, flown one or two flights in that capacity,and retired the next day on a captains pension.

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

It could be part of the spin tactics to try and divert public sympathy away from the striking pilots, the ordinary Joe Soap on the AIW is hardly likely to have any sympathy for someone on €250k a year, that's almost banker wages..!
It's like the current directive that certain words and phrases have to be preceded with spin words in every tweet, statement and publication...
Aer Lingus pilots union
Unnecessary strike
Well paid pilots
Only 24% pilots strike
Etc etc...

Turnipman wrote: »

Is that a Forsa directive?

You think Forsa ask Ryanair to do this..?

john boye

billy few mates wrote: »

It could be part of the spin tactics to try and divert public sympathy away from the striking pilots, the ordinary Joe Soap on the AIW is hardly likely to have any sympathy for someone on €250k a year, that's almost banker wages..!
It's like the current directive that certain words and phrases have to be preceded with spin words in every tweet, statement and publication...
Aer Lingus pilots union
Unnecessary strike
Well paid pilots
Only 24% pilots strike
Etc etc...

They know that releasing wage details of the few will get people's attention and damage whatever public sympathy there is for pilots as big figures like that will obviously distract people from the real issues. Most people probably assume it's about money anyway. Like them or not you can't deny that Ryanair know how to work the slack-jawed press.

CoisFharraige

Let's just bring ourselves back to the basics and take a read of wikihow https://www.wikihow.com/Go-on-Strike