Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

Tenger wrote: »

Point of fact; they aren’t striking over pay demands. It’s publc knowledge that Ryanair pay their flight crew very well. This is about a administrative ordering of ‘length in service’ which is an easy fix as each staff member has a staff number from the day they join up (full time and contractor)
You must be unaware that Ryanair make €350M+ profit per year, or that they charge all passengers the sum 50 cent per ticket so that the company themselves don’t have to absorb the cost of offering wheelchair assistance (as other airlines do)
But maybe you’re right, maybe Leo can learn from O’Leary......

There you go again trying to make a disgusting change to work practices at Ryanair conceived by a vested interest group at the expense of their co-workers sound totally innocuous
My response is as it was back on page two of this thread.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107424391&postcount=18

We can all agree that we'd like to sort out the industrial actions at Ryanair to minimise disruption to passengers who are seen by the Unions as acceptable Collateral Damage in their war with Ryanair.

As someone who back before Ryanair was strong enough to compete with Aer Lingus had to take the bus/ferry from rural Ireland to London because I couldn't afford air fare with Aer Lingus I want Ryanair to win and my ideal resolution would be for Ryanair to be left with just a rump of very well paid pilots on staff with share options and what not to ensure their loyalty and the remainder of the pilots to be contractors. That will make Ryanair strikeproof and ensure that Ireland doesn't suffer too much from its unfortunate geographical location on the periphery of Europe.

I do not want Ryanair to turn in to a Lufthansa or Air France or God forbid an Alitalia under the thumb of the Unions.

In the last quarter Ryanair were making only about €11 euro profit per passenger. That is miniscule profit. Their competitors or rather the union members of their competitors can't compete in the open market and will be happy to see them knocked off balance by instigating Industrial action in the Airline. Ryanair are living proof that the capitalist system often works better than the alternative. Ryanair is going to put a lot of unionised pilots in competitors out of work. These Union Activists are Agent Provocateurs trying to forestall that day. Since late last year Air Berlin and Alitalia amongst others have had their troubles and Ryanair has been too busy with industrial relations to move on these opportunities for expansion; that has been to the consumers loss.
As someone who needs to travel regularly I need to have an abundant supply of cheap flight options available to me. I know who I'm rooting for here; it isn't the pilots. As a consumer you would need to be mad to be hoping that Unions take hold of that airline. Their impact on the entire European Aviation market is what allows you to travel cheaply around Europe. The people who say they don't fly Ryanair on principle can only afford to fly on alternatives because Ryanair put the prices of the others under downward pressure. Ryanair make flying cheaper for a billion passengers, not just the 100 million passengers who fly with them now.

Getting back to the bus/ferry to London; a return flight from Dublin to London can be had for €40. That is £31.50 punts which is cheaper than what it cost me without any index linking for bus/ferry all those long years ago.

Irish Steve

The unfortunate aspect of all of this is that there is a valid case on the employee's side, and a valid reluctance by the management to get involved with unions because of the issues they have seen with other operators over a long period of time. There are then faults on both sides in the way they are managing things, which is only serving to harden attitudes, which is not helping.

Then, and for me this is the elephant in the room, there is an unspoken agenda in the background that has very little to do with Ryanair and the people that work for them, there are people in the higher levels of "the union system" who desperately want to get back to the days when they clicked their fingers and the entire airport ground to a halt, in the way that they could when it was Aer Rianta that ran the airport, and Aer Lingus was the largest carrier at Dublin. If they can get Ryanair unionised, that helps their cause massively, and unfortunately, the moves that are happening at the moment are playing into their hands.

Third party intervention is not going to be able to solve the hidden agenda, as there will be huge pressures on to make sure that no one talks about their long term plans. Having said that, the issues are a lot more complex and wider than just a "minor problem in Ireland", so an external mediation service of some form is likely to be the only way to move things on.

There will be changes, if for no other reason than that the EU and others are looking very closely at the way that "self employment" is being (ab)used as a way to reduce staff costs, there have been strong hints that there will be significant legislation changes, the only thing that's not sure is exactly what that change will be, and how quickly that will happen.

The reality is that Ryanair is no longer a little small Irish company on the fringe of aviation, they have become a very significant player on the European stage, and the regulatory systems are having to find ways to deal with a structure that's unusual, in that there are not many airlines with a presence in so many countries.

Mebuntu

Irish Steve wrote: »

Then, and for me this is the elephant in the room, there is an unspoken agenda in the background that has very little to do with Ryanair and the people that work for them, there are people in the higher levels of "the union system" who desperately want to get back to the days when they clicked their fingers and the entire airport ground to a halt, in the way that they could when it was Aer Rianta that ran the airport, and Aer Lingus was the largest carrier at Dublin. If they can get Ryanair unionised, that helps their cause massively, and unfortunately, the moves that are happening at the moment are playing into their hands.

Spot on and, as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, it was Ryanair and MOL in particular who saw to it that this "system" was destroyed. Passengers of all airlines should be grateful but I suspect some posters here who say they'll never fly with Ryanair again have no idea what it was like in those days.

Wanderer78

Mebuntu wrote: »

Spot on and, as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, it was Ryanair and MOL in particular who saw to it that this "system" was destroyed. Passengers of all airlines should be grateful but I suspect some posters here who say they'll never fly with Ryanair again have no idea what it was like in those days.

its understandable though why workers and unions are taking these type of stands, but as other posters said, this has the potential to be highly destructive for all if common ground is not found

Brendan Bendar

Mebuntu wrote: »

Spot on and, as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, it was Ryanair and MOL in particular who saw to it that this "system" was destroyed. Passengers of all airlines should be grateful but I suspect some posters here who say they'll never fly with Ryanair again have no idea what it was like in those days.

Spot on #2

Irish Steve saved me a post,and in my opinion correctly spotted the elephant in the room.

As I see it there is no harm in the airline recognizing unions,it’s fairer to the staff especially the lower paid.

However that opinion is only valid if the Unions concentrate in the staff they represent and better their conditions,not use the ‘in’ as a potential stepping stone to take over the airport metaphorically as they did in the past.

Having the ‘power’ to bring Dublin Airport to a halt was a huge plus and they used it.Often, both as a threat and actually.

Make no mistake there are people in Unions who thirst for conflict and disruption,luckily in the minority, but in the past ,these people ,usually part of the workforce,played big parts in the many strikes, threats of strikes, disruption and loss of revenue.Making a name for themselves was important to them.

There would be also people on the other side who would wring every last concession out of staff and treat them as disposable .

So let’s hope the pragmatic and level headed dilute the war horses on both sides.

billy few mates

Mebuntu wrote: »

Spot on and, as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, it was Ryanair and MOL in particular who saw to it that this "system" was destroyed. Passengers of all airlines should be grateful but I suspect some posters here who say they'll never fly with Ryanair again have no idea what it was like in those days.

Yes they certainly changed the whole face of the industry and made air travel affordable to the masses and they should be rightfully applauded for this. Their business model forced a large number of high cost airlines to address their cost base and pricing structures resulting in lower fares for the consumer of all these airlines and those that couldn't adapt simply folded. It also spawned a number of similar low cost start ups meaning even more choice and savings for travelling public.
It's worth remembering that to some people choice is more important than cost, most people will be happy to snag a bargain flight to Malaga for a tenner but some people will be happy to pay a lot more for a more comfortable seat, an extra bit of legroom or a guarantee of customer service. There's no one size fits all when it comes to air travel.

Tenger

I’m not sure how I’m trying to promote disgusting drastic work changes in Ryanair by posting an explanatory post. A seniority list should cover ALL pilots, not just direct employees.
A Devils advocate could response by saying that you are making a simple admin feature appear to be an evil plan to prevent new staff having any future in the company. I’m sure the correct answer is somewhere in the middle.


Since my introduction to the aviation industry 25 years ago I feel that unions are a necessary evil, I 100% agree that the staff must ensure they are the focus rather than some nebulous union plan.

As for €11 profit per pax, well most airlines make a lot less than that. Ryanair are a consistent high performer in a very expensive, very low margin industry. Their success is based on their economy of scale, they are a behemoth in the European industry.

As for share options for pilots.......not going to happen. Ryanair took 3 operating points from Southwest. (Single type, no connections, short turnarounds)
Share options, profit dividends and long term loyal staff were left behind in Love Field.

billy few mates

Clearly some people are easily 'disgusted'

billy few mates

Tenger wrote: »

I’m not sure how I’m trying to promote disgusting drastic work changes in Ryanair by posting an explanatory post. A seniority list should cover ALL pilots, not just direct employees.
A Devils advocate could response by saying that you are making a simple admin feature appear to be an evil plan to prevent new staff having any future in the company. I’m sure the correct answer is somewhere in the middle.


Since my introduction to the aviation industry 25 years ago I feel that unions are a necessary evil, I 100% agree that the staff must ensure they are the focus rather than some nebulous union plan.

As for €11 profit per pax, well most airlines make a lot less than that. Ryanair are a consistent high performer in a very expensive, very low margin industry. Their success is based on their economy of scale, they are a behemoth in the European industry.

As for share options for pilots.......not going to happen. Ryanair took 3 operating points from Southwest. (Single type, no connections, short turnarounds)
Share options, profit dividends and long term loyal staff were left behind in Love Field.

I'm not a big fan of unions in general, mostly because of experience as detailed by other posters. Thankfully I haven't been a member of a union for over twenty five years but I fully acknowledge the absolute need for a union in some companies.

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

I do not want Ryanair to turn in to a Lufthansa or Air France or God forbid an Alitalia under the thumb of the Unions.

Nobody (least of all me) wants to see Ryanair become a company run by and for the unions (ala CIE) but surely to God there must be some kind of middle ground where the staff can be treated with more respect and compassion? Why do so many people think it has to be one way or the other?

rivegauche

Tenger wrote: »

I’m not sure how I’m trying to promote disgusting drastic work changes in Ryanair by posting an explanatory post. A seniority list should cover ALL pilots, not just direct employees.
A Devils advocate could response by saying that you are making a simple admin feature appear to be an evil plan to prevent new staff having any future in the company. I’m sure the correct answer is somewhere in the middle.


Since my introduction to the aviation industry 25 years ago I feel that unions are a necessary evil, I 100% agree that the staff must ensure they are the focus rather than some nebulous union plan.

As for €11 profit per pax, well most airlines make a lot less than that. Ryanair are a consistent high performer in a very expensive, very low margin industry. Their success is based on their economy of scale, they are a behemoth in the European industry.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107424391&postcount=18

This proposed change to introduce seniority will ensure that empty nest pilots in their fifties will always get the best days off and will always get the best base options. Unions will say that these elder airmen will show consideration for their younger Colleagues but when push to comes to shove the younger pilots will always be left with the scraps. Disgusting.

Ryanair makes a profit at a low margin because it doesn't have Unions destroying the value added in their operations. In Unionised operations that added value disappears in to the ether and although the likes of Lufthansa or Air France may charge fares of 150 euro per leg there is no profit returned to the shareholder at the end of it all.

Irish Steve

rivegauche wrote: »

This proposed change to introduce seniority will ensure that empty nest pilots in their fifties will always get the best days off and will always get the best base options. Unions will say that these elder airmen will show consideration for their younger Colleagues but when push to comes to shove the younger pilots will always be left with the scraps. Disgusting.

Seniority has been used as a way to give the people that have worked the longest for an organisation some recognition and reward for that service, in some airlines it was the way that standby seats were allocated if there were more bidders than seats available. What's "disgusting" about that?

Brendan Bendar

john boye wrote: »

Nobody (least of all me) wants to see Ryanair become a company run by and for the unions (ala CIE) but surely to God there must be some kind of middle ground where the staff can be treated with more respect and compassion? Why do so many people think it has to be one way or the other?

Because they don’t think.

rivegauche

Irish Steve wrote: »

Seniority has been used as a way to give the people that have worked the longest for an organisation some recognition and reward for that service, in some airlines it was the way that standby seats were allocated if there were more bidders than seats available. What's "disgusting" about that?

If they want to give them recognition then do it in a way that ensures other pilots have some faint hope of taking a holiday at a time of the year when their family and friends are around and can be met, not on a random Wednesday in January, February or November while knowing that holidays in Summer or around public holidays are just a distant dream.
That is what is disgusting about it.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107424391&postcount=18

This proposed change to introduce seniority will ensure that empty nest pilots in their fifties will always get the best days off and will always get the best base options. Unions will say that these elder airmen will show consideration for their younger Colleagues but when push to comes to shove the younger pilots will always be left with the scraps. Disgusting.

Ryanair makes a profit at a low margin because it doesn't have Unions destroying the value added in their operations. In Unionised operations that added value disappears in to the ether and although the likes of Lufthansa or Air France may charge fares of 150 euro per leg there is no profit returned to the shareholder at the end of it all.

With headline grabbing rhetoric like this it's easy to see why the ill-informed might be sceptical about seniority systems, "disgusted" even in some extreme cases but this scepticism (and disgust) is often from outsiders with little or no knowledge of how these systems actually work.
I've worked for many airlines which operate seniority systems and they work quite well. They're self regulating so there can be no complaints. They reward the most loyal employees and even those on the bottom of the list know they'll see the benefit of it as their careers progress (unless they leave).
They're open and transparent for all to see, they cost nothing to administer.
They don't necessarily mean that the most senior get the best two weeks off every year, in some companies they reverse the list on alternate years for annual leave purposes so that those on the bottom this year have first choice next year but you carry on being "disgusted" about a system you clearly know nothing about if that's what it takes to get you through this thread...

uptherebels

john boye wrote: »

Nobody (least of all me) wants to see Ryanair become a company run by and for the unions (ala CIE) but surely to God there must be some kind of middle ground where the staff can be treated with more respect and compassion? Why do so many people think it has to be one way or the other?

Unfortunately most unions are take take take they won't stop at the middle ground.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

If they want to give them recognition then do it in a way that ensures other pilots have some faint hope of taking a holiday at a time of the year when their family and friends are around and can be met, not on a random Wednesday in January, February or November while knowing that holidays in Summer or around public holidays are just a distant dream.
That is what is disgusting about it.

Is that your only concern about a seniority system...?
Because these concerns are easily addressed with a little forward thinking and agreement.

billy few mates

A bit simplistic but a good place for you to start...
https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/pilot6.htm

Wanderer78

uptherebels wrote: »

Unfortunately most unions are take take take they won't stop at the middle ground.

you could easily say the same about some employers to, 'every force has an equal and opposite....'

uptherebels

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you could easily say the same about some employers to, 'every force has an equal and opposite....'

I know right it's like you are forced to work for a bad employer

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107424391&postcount=18

This proposed change to introduce seniority will ensure that empty nest pilots in their fifties will always get the best days off and will always get the best base options. Unions will say that these elder airmen will show consideration for their younger Colleagues but when push to comes to shove the younger pilots will always be left with the scraps. Disgusting

Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.

And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and mingle with the madding crowd.
Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.

Wanderer78

uptherebels wrote: »

I know right it's like you are forced to work for a bad employer

again, life isnt this black or white thing some preserve it to be, you d be surprised how fairly normal life events limits your employment opportunities, effectively, yes, some are indeed 'forced' to work for bad employers because of these issues

billy few mates

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you could easily say the same about some employers to, 'every force has an equal and opposite....'

Exactly there has to be give and take on both sides. It would be pretty unreasonable for the union to expect the company to concede to every single one of their eleven demands but they should at least discuss them and see if there's a middle ground they can both agree on.
That's the whole point of union "negotiations". Maybe some demands could be shelved with an agreement that they be revisited in the future. It can't be all take, take, take but it can't be all no, no, no either.

notharrypotter

uptherebels wrote: »

I know right it's like you are forced to work for a bad employer

There are more "bad" employers out there than you think.
The cult of personality driven by the chairperson often poison's the atmosphere..

rivegauche

Tenger wrote: »

Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.
And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and m8ngle with tge madding crowd.
Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.

I can well understand why, now that you've worked yourself in to a position of seniority that you would defend it.
It is notable that this is the fight that the Union reps chose to fight when Ryanair are reputed to be such a terrible employer on so many fronts. That speaks volumes about where the Union priorities lie.

billy few mates

Tenger wrote: »

Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.
And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and m8ngle with tge madding crowd.
Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.

It's a fallacious argument he's pushing.
In reality the most senior staff tend to be older and so often have older or adult children. The first two weeks of school holidays tend not to be as important for holiday planning as you get older. My kids are grown up and I certainly wouldn't be planning my holidays during peak school holiday time. Factor in staff standby travel and you'll see why off Peak spring/winter holidays can be more appealing to some...

Widdensushi

Tenger wrote: »

Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.

And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and mingle with the madding crowd.
Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.

So the strike is pointless,if the new employees have the priority the result would be the same and everyone would be happy?

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

I can well understand why, now that you've worked yourself in to a position of seniority that you would defend it...

You're not getting this are you...? :rolleyes:

You don't "work yourself up to a position of seniority" you become more senior by virtue of your service and loyalty...

Irish Steve

rivegauche wrote: »

If they want to give them recognition then do it in a way that ensures other pilots have some faint hope of taking a holiday at a time of the year when their family and friends are around and can be met, not on a random Wednesday in January, February or November while knowing that holidays in Summer or around public holidays are just a distant dream.
That is what is disgusting about it.

You really need to get that chip off your shoulder. I wonder if maybe you were "sold" a vision of piloting that was in a different time and under different operational requirements, if that's the case, then the problem is not piloting, it's your expectation of what working life as a pilot will be like.

Yes, I am well aware that a pilot flying for Ryanair is operating in a very different way to the way a long haul pilot operated for major flag carriers 30 years ago. The reality is that there are very few jobs in aviation that have not changed massively over the last 30 years.

And before you jump down my throat, I'm not saying that the way Ryanair has evolved some of the terms and conditions that apply to pilots is right, and I'd not be alone in thinking that there are some aspects of that evolution that have gone too far and eroded the quality of the job too much, which is one of the reasons that the pressure for union recognition and the ability to negotiate from a stronger position has come about.

In the same way, some aspects of flying 30 years ago were at the other end of the spectrum in terms of the life style, and somewhere in the middle, there is a balance that's fair to both the employer and the employees.

ANY organisation that employs a significant number of people and provides a 7 day service will have similar sorts of requirements that staff provide cover for critical periods, and structures in place to acheive what's necessary to run the business. When I was working on the ramp at Dublin a good few years ago, there were all manner of requirements for cover at peak periods. While some of the overtime was voluntary, the first Christmas, still on a temporary contract at that time, I ended up working 156 hours over a 2 week period due to the way the holiday system worked, and I wasn't the only one, and even with those hours, we were short staffed on some days.

My daughter works for a DIY retail organisation, they are blanket banned from holidays at Christmas, Easter and other peak periods of the year, due to the volume of customers in the store at those times.

There have been a number of posts above mine that make it clear that seniority does not work in the way you are suggesting. What it does provide is a way to ensure that there is a way for everyone to know what to expect when the company has to manage things in order to provide the service that they have advertised.

What seems to be lacking at the moment is a willingness from both sides to really engage and address the substantive issues that are at the heart of the problems.

realitykeeper

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You really seem to have it for the labour class, it's important to realise what has actually made companies such as Ryanair successful, it has in fact been the hard work of its employees, both past and present, on all levels. If we continue this assault on workers, it will increase the likelihood of further disputes and in fact economic and political destabilisation.

I believe economic, political and indeed social destabilization will happen on a massive scale before the end of this decade. The reason is because we pay ourselves far too much and this really will have detrimental consequences. Mind you, the damage has already been done and practically everyone is completely clueless as to the extreme and urgent measures that must be implemented immediately to lessen the impact.

Ryanair is an Irish success story but it should be the norm and not an exception.

I am not sure how people will react to the next economic crisis in this country because the people are so craven, immature and brat like. It would not surprise me if communism became mainstream given the mentality of the people.