Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

realitykeeper

Bob24 wrote: »

Same here ... or maybe they should stop all service based in Italy, Belgium, Spain and Portugal since they are also facing strikes in these countries and they staff is getting some institutional/public sympathy, that would teach their staff and the public in those countries a lesson ;-)

Of course they should. The right thing to do is to not give in to the pilots. Easyjet recently started operating in Africa (not sure if they are using a different name there). I think that would be a good move for Ryanair also. Europeans pay themselves far far too much so companies like Ryanair and many others will eventually migrate to other parts of the world and Europe will become an irrelevant backwater.

billy few mates

Nurse....Nurse....

L1011

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am not sure how people will react to the next economic crisis in this country because the people are so craven, immature and brat like. It would not surprise me if communism became mainstream given the mentality of the people.

Politics forum is elsewhere, please post it in instead.

L1011

billy few mates wrote: »

It's a fallacious argument he's pushing.
In reality the most senior staff tend to be older and so often have older or adult children. The first two weeks of school holidays tend not to be as important for holiday planning as you get older. My kids are grown up and I certainly wouldn't be planning my holidays during peak school holiday time. Factor in staff standby travel and you'll see why off Peak spring/winter holidays can be more appealing to some...

Same where I've worked. I have my choice of annual leave and it's never going to leave 'junior staff' put out. I don't have kids and really don't want to be fighting (and hence overpaying) with families who have kids for a finite level of flights/hotels/etc let alone surrounded by shrieking children when I do go away; so just don't do so from early July to the end of August, ever.

I've worked the Christmas period every year for the past 12 years because it pays well or gives me piles of leave to take when it's quiet; everyone with families has got it off everywhere I've worked. The idea that senior staff actually want peak periods off is fallacious bordering on nonsense

LuckyLloyd

realitykeeper wrote: »

Seems to me that it is in the interests of everyone to support Ryanair over the pilots and their henchmen in the unions and the D. Leo Varadkar really must learn to say no to strikers. If they want more money, tell them to get a second job.

They're not striking for more money lad.

rivegauche

Each one of those striking Pilots was willing to ruin the travel plans of at least 725 people on the day of each strike on a day chosen to maximise hardship to the most number of people...charming
189 seats on a 737-800 x 96% occupancy x a likely 4 legs if not more in a shift.

If they show so little consideration for the innocent public how could any sane person expect that they would show fairness to those blameless pilots who are in their opinion "less senior" purely because they haven't been given a permanent contract or were given a contract only recently. A coterie aligned with the Union will decide how Seniority works in Ryanair if they are successful and they will construct the rules to suit themselves, not others.

I am also certain that granting this Seniority will work against the interests of the non-union staff as the Union will not be driven to improve the lot of the non-unionised staff who are the ones who most desperately in need of improved working conditions instead serving only the interests of their Clientele; the minority of pilots who have full time contracts.

I'm not the one trying to screw over my Colleagues and ruining holiday plans for tens of thousands of people yet I'm the one accused of having a chip on my shoulder.

CoisFharraige

rivegauche wrote: »

Each one of those striking Pilots was willing to ruin the travel plans of at least 725 people on the day of each strike on a day chosen to maximise hardship to the most number of people...charming
189 seats on a 737-800 x 96% occupancy x a likely 4 legs if not more in a shift.

If they show so little consideration for the innocent public how could any sane person expect that they would show fairness to those blameless pilots who are in their opinion "less senior" purely because they haven't been given a permanent contract or were given a contract only recently. A coterie aligned with the Union will decide how Seniority works in Ryanair if they are successful and they will construct the rules to suit themselves, not others.

I am also certain that granting this Seniority will work against the interests of the non-union staff as the Union will not be driven to improve the lot of the non-unionised staff who are the ones who most desperately in need of improved working conditions instead serving only the interests of their Clientele; the minority of pilots who have full time contracts.

I'm not the one trying to screw over my Colleagues and ruining holiday plans for tens of thousands of people yet I'm the one accused of having a chip on my shoulder.

You've given this view about 5 times throughout the thread, and it has been refuted each time by some, and accepted by others. Can we please move on from how you feel that they're ''screwing over'' their own colleagues, as I'm sure that we all understand what your view is at this stage.

rivegauche

You need to look up the dictionary definition of "refuted". It has been contended by others that the union members will not screw over their Colleagues and I've pointed out that only a naive person based on the Union members behaviour would automatically accept that they'll treat their co-workers fairly.

rivegauche

Why should we move on from this?
They chose the fight they wanted to fight which was seniority, not protecting the interests of all pilots who provide services to Ryanair.
they chose to call strike after strike after strike. One strike is enough to show they have the power to call a strike and establish a bargaining postion at the table but these people continue to call more and more strikes causing great hardship for the travelling public.

Irish Steve

OK, this circular argument about seniority has gone round the loop enough times to make even the most experienced aerobatic pilots dizzy.

It is time to move on from the petty name calling and rehash of the same limited agenda discussion that seems to have everybody distracted.

Rehashing the same arguments 20 times will not change how the union or Ryanair resolve the issues that have resulted in strike action.

There are much bigger and more long term issues that should be being addressed, but while both sides indulge in megaphone diplomacy those issues are not going to be dealt with in a way that will resolve the conflict.

If we don't move on, then we will have to ask certain posters to refrain from posting in this thread, in order to ensure that we get a balanced and wide ranging discussion about what's really happening in this increasingly acrimonious dispute

Bob24

Looks like German pilots are getting ready for strikes as well: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/german-pilots-set-for-big-yes-vote-in-new-ryanair-strike-37166068.html

With different categories of staff going on strike accross several countries, I find it is getting hard for Ryanair to honestly blame a particular union or category of staff in a specific country for the current issues, as it is now obvious there are problems accross the board.

billy few mates

Bob24 wrote: »

Looks like German pilots are getting ready for strikes as well: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/german-pilots-set-for-big-yes-vote-in-new-ryanair-strike-37166068.html

With different categories of staff going on strike accross several countries, I find it is getting hard for Ryanair to honestly blame a particular union or category of staff in a specific country for the current issues, as it is now obvious there are problems accross the board.

Another "unnecessary" strike by a small number of >insert percentage< pilots and this time it appears to be about money...? :eek:
Disgusting as some people on here might say...:rolleyes:

Be interesting to see how this one 'spins' out. As far as I'm aware all the German pilots are full time employees so all would be eligible to vote, if they vote to strike then it will be a majority decision of the entire group so the "small number of our pilots" will be quietly dropped.
Also like IALPA the president of the German pilots union is a serving Lufthansa pilot. Arguably LH are a far bigger competitor to Ryanair than Aer Lingus so expect a lot of similar ranting about pilots from competitor airlines leading the strike.


They really need to get around the table and sort this thing out for once and for all, we need to see this great company back where it belongs, leading the way.

basill

And it highlights that the high level management appointments last year that were meant to bring about a change in corporate culture would appear to be mere posturing.

Turnipman

Bob24 wrote: »

Looks like German pilots are getting ready for strikes as well: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/german-pilots-set-for-big-yes-vote-in-new-ryanair-strike-37166068.html

With different categories of staff going on strike accross several countries, I find it is getting hard for Ryanair to honestly blame a particular union or category of staff in a specific country for the current issues, as it is now obvious there are problems accross the board.

The German one appears to be about money, whereas we have been repeatedly assured by Forsa's Bernard Harbour and his many Boards.ie admirers that the Irish one is all about respect.

billy few mates

Turnipman wrote: »

The German one appears to be about money, whereas we have been repeatedly assured by Forsa's Bernard Harbour and his many Boards.ie admirers that the Irish one is all about respect.

I thought it was all about a seniority system...?

rivegauche

The German one is in part about preventing what they call Social Dumping. What they want runs contrary to E.U. principles of open markets to offer your labour in all E.U. member states.
As a citizen of a small European Country who enjoys freedom of movement you'd need to think long and hard whether you want to support the German Unions.
Yes, there is an element of arbitrage about what large companies do but if the German Unions get their way a large number of non-Germans might loose their ability to provide for themselves.

German trade union action will be interesting. If they can't disrupt Ryanair operations in Germany to any meaningful extent then they lose what momentum they have.
If the German transport unions can't challenge the use of Polish Truck drivers living in the cabs of their trucks then I'm not sure VC will have much more success with pilots and cabin crew.

rivegauche

Strike at sometime in August after the 8th seems probable now.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-konsumgueter/billigflieger-deutsche-piloten-stimmen-fuer-streik-bei-ryanair/22861644.html?ticket=ST-1773234-ZwLvzsHLNgkaLzXKfwQ2-ap4

According to that article there are 400 pilots based in 10 German airports. Of those pilots it is not clear how many are contractors.
As the Union want a higher proportion of salary fixed rather than variable based on flight hours I don't know if a strike can be avoided as Ryanair are unlikely to willingly agree.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Strike at sometime in August after the 8th seems probable now.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-konsumgueter/billigflieger-deutsche-piloten-stimmen-fuer-streik-bei-ryanair/22861644.html?ticket=ST-1773234-ZwLvzsHLNgkaLzXKfwQ2-ap4

According to that article there are 400 pilots based in 10 German airports. Of those pilots it is not clear how many are contractors.
As the Union want a higher proportion of salary fixed rather than variable based on flight hours I don't know if a strike can be avoided as Ryanair are unlikely to willingly agree.

None of them apparently....
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-14/ryanair-offers-german-pilots-full-contracts-in-peace-overture

rivegauche

airliners.de says that less that 50% of pilots are company employees but the text is too vague for me to rely upon.
We will know what effect this strike has when 96% is expressed in actual numbers of employees.

Status of negotiation according to Ireland so far is
https://corporate.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/11-FORSA-requirements.pdf

If that is the case then the pilot's union is being vexatious at the expense of Customers.

I don't think Pilots would strike again if they knew that they had already been granted so much of what they agreed to and the information in the PDF isn't aimed at the public but to reach the Pilots rather than relying on the strike organisers to pass on a true picture of state of negotiation to pilots who are unlikely to be enjoying walking around in circles at the airport roundabout while discommoded passengers glare at them.

billy few mates

Well that confirms it's not about money, I can't see a single demand on there that would make even the slightest dent on the bottom line let alone "threaten the whole business model" as some scaremongers were predicting.

Bob24

Ryanair saying they have accepted demands means very little as we all know the devil is in the details and they are regular offenders in terms of misleading statements and vague promises.

A request can only be considered fulfilled when the requester says it is happy it is the case (ie the pilots and their union). Doesn't mean the company has to fulfil all of them of course, but they are not the ones to say a request has been fulfilled as they are not the requester.

And Ryanair pilots are no doubt in a better position than anyone on this thread to know what solid progress has or hasn’t been made.

billy few mates

I dare say the "Forsa can't/won't explain" language and the obligatory reference to Aer Lingus pilots union is only fanning the flames when a softer approach could have been used.
Apart from the issue of f/o promotions which hasn't been agreed it looks to me like the last few sticking points might only need to be further clarified to be resolved.

rivegauche

Dutch pilots have voted for strike action.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ryanair-dutch-pilots-vote-favour-industrial-action-115535676--finance.html

Supposedly 90% of (directly employed???)pilots in Germany, not 96% according to this voted for strike action.
http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-streiks-alle-piloten/46137

Rivegauche bought another Ryanair flight. Keep talking Ryanair down. Ye are saving me a fortune. Airhint said there was only a 12% chance of a lower price so I snapped it up.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Dutch pilots have voted for strike action.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ryanair-dutch-pilots-vote-favour-industrial-action-115535676--finance.html

Supposedly 90% of (directly employed???)pilots in Germany, not 96% according to this voted for strike action.
http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-streiks-alle-piloten/46137

Rivegauche bought another Ryanair flight. Keep talking Ryanair down. Ye are saving me a fortune. Airhint said there was only a 12% chance of a lower price so I snapped it up.

Well done you, save a fortune on your flight and make a fortune out of EU261 if it's cancelled, you might be on to something...

Who's "talking them down"..?
I think most people here would like to see an end to these disputes. There are no real winners in these situations (except you apparently), everybody wants to see them coming to an agreement so everyone can get back to their lives and the public can start flying again.

Wrex

I feel Ryanair are trying to put out too many fires at the moment, with Unions from multiple countries turning the screw.

Warnings of job losses and moverment of jobs to Poland, may have subdued anxiety in the ranks previously, however I feel the Unions will persist with their course of action, as it is now or never, as they will feel they have backed Ryanair into a corner.

Obviously Ryanair is too big and profitable to fail, but they are no doubt hurting. Their business depends on reputation for reliability, which is shot to pieces at the moment. I have never had a problem flying Ryanair, as i could always rely on them, which i cant at the moment, and thats a problem.

Ultimatley Ryanair has reached a watershed moment in my opinion, and it's time to see if what the employees are crying out for would seriously compromise the Ryanair model. The Ryanair culture has lead to a very successful company , but some companies have to evolve to continue to thrive.

CoisFharraige

Wrex wrote: »

I feel Ryanair are trying to put out too many fires at the moment, with Unions from multiple countries turning the screw.

Warnings of job losses and moverment of jobs to Poland, may have subdued anxiety in the ranks previously, however I feel the Unions will persist with their course of action, as it is now or never, as they will feel they have backed Ryanair into a corner.

Obviously Ryanair is too big and profitable to fail, but they are no doubt hurting. Their business depends on reputation for reliability, which is shot to pieces at the moment. I have never had a problem flying Ryanair, as i could always rely on them, which i cant at the moment, and thats a problem.

Ultimatley Ryanair has reached a watershed moment in my opinion, and it's time to see if what the employees are crying out for would seriously compromise the Ryanair model. The Ryanair culture has lead to a very successful company , but some companies have to evolve to continue to thrive.

Agreed. If there’s any company that should be able to offer good employment conditions to employees (conditions they want within reason) it’s Ryanair.

Brendan Bendar

Wrex wrote: »

I feel Ryanair are trying to put out too many fires at the moment, with Unions from multiple countries turning the screw.

Warnings of job losses and moverment of jobs to Poland, may have subdued anxiety in the ranks previously, however I feel the Unions will persist with their course of action, as it is now or never, as they will feel they have backed Ryanair into a corner.

Obviously Ryanair is too big and profitable to fail, but they are no doubt hurting. Their business depends on reputation for reliability, which is shot to pieces at the moment. I have never had a problem flying Ryanair, as i could always rely on them, which i cant at the moment, and thats a problem.

Ultimatley Ryanair has reached a watershed moment in my opinion, and it's time to see if what the employees are crying out for would seriously compromise the Ryanair model. The Ryanair culture has lead to a very successful company , but some companies have to evolve to continue to thrive.

As I pointed out days ago, there will be a at least a few months of severe turbulence with FR as the pressures equalize.

You don’t go from no Unions and ‘ do it as we say’ to ‘Hold on there bro, our members have to agree to this and we should sit down for five or six weeks to tease this out’

Unions like nothing more than endless and endless and endless ‘discussion’ with the company being tied up for weeks and weeks and weeks with their personel involved in every little disput

FR would ot be used to that scenario.

But that’s the way it will pan out.

Wrex

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

As I pointed out days ago, there will be a at least a few months of severe turbulence with FR as the pressures equalize.

You don’t go from no Unions and ‘ do it as we say’ to ‘Hold on there bro, our members have to agree to this and we should sit down for five or six weeks to tease this out’

Unions like nothing more than endless and endless and endless ‘discussion’ with the company being tied up for weeks and weeks and weeks with their personel involved in every little disput

FR would ot be used to that scenario.

But that’s the way it will pan out.

I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.

Brendan Bendar

Wrex wrote: »

I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.

It certainly is, 360 degree war at the minute.

Like a bunch of magpies attacking a squirrel.

But....r e l a x... gonna be ok.

Anahita

Wrex wrote: »

I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.

I've been corresponding with a few folks in Portugal and I didn't realise how different their striking/employment legislation is to ours and since RA has to negotiate separately with all these different staff cohorts PLUS the airport unions and staff (TAP in the case of Portugal) it's a really big complicated mess and difficult to manage.

RA seems to only post the most imminent information on their website. Right now, they're advertising only the planned Aug 3rd strike and nothing else re: cancellations/delays.