Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

Bob24

Wrex wrote: »

I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.

Yes it is fairly unique and is both a strength and a weakness.

Until recently it had only been a strength as they had been using a divide and conquer strategy (leveraging the fact that they are the only centralised entity which has a full view and control over everything while the staff is atomised in different countries which makes it hard to join forces and talk to their employer as one group).

But it is now also becoming a weakness as the staff is loosely linked accross counties by a common sentiment that things have to change (which is made easier by modern communication methods), but at the same time the company still has to handle multiple localised rebellions in countries which have different legislations and industrial relation cultures, which is obviously hard for a centralised entity and will probably require a bit more of local knowledge/presence/decision power to handle the various scenarios.

Wrex

Just received a news alert from RTE, announcing Ryanair pilots in Sweden are to strike on August 10th.

billy few mates

Another unnecessary strike by a small number >insert percentage< of our >insert nationality/country< pilots who are being manipulated by a bunch of >insert local rival airline< union pilots...

Bob24

billy few mates wrote: »

Another unnecessary strike by a small number >insert percentage< of our >insert nationality/country< pilots who are being manipulated by a bunch of >insert local rival airline< union pilots...

It would actually be interesting to know if and how Ryanair communicates in the local media where strikes are happening :-)

duskyjoe

Belgium pilots kicking off now. This is extremely serious for FR.

IngazZagni

Ryanair have completely lost control of the situation now. It's quite clear that the disputes Ryanair pilots have are not confined to the Irish as Ryanair would have you believe. Ryanairs approach to talks has been appaling so far. Are they going to threaten hundreds of more pilots with dismissal? It's farsacal.

Ryanair need to act like a mature company for a change and engage in meaningful dialogue.

Idbatterim

I've a simple question, but did Ryanair have a choice to say they would not deal with unions? because they were moronic or naive beyond belief, not to have foreseen the absolute joke that now lies ahead, indefinitely..

CoisFharraige

Idbatterim wrote: »

I've a simple question, but did Ryanair have a choice to say they would not deal with unions? because they were moronic or naive beyond belief, not to have foreseen the absolute joke that now lies ahead, indefinitely..

''An employee has a constitutional right to join a trade union; however he/she cannot insist that his/her employer recognise the union as the right to join is a personal right. An employee also has a right not to join a trade union under European law as the European Convention on Human Rights has been held to contain a ‘negative right of association.''

So yes they have the choice not to engage, as they have in the past, but that is no longer feasible as we can see, as the unrest is just gathering momentum exponentially.

Their silly rhetoric is just nonsensical at this point. They can't fool the public any longer about the fact that its confined to 'a small minority of our Irish pilots'. Clearly this is going out of control now, and it serves them right in my opinion for failing to realise this months ago. Talk about something coming back to bite you in the ass...

Bob24

duskyjoe wrote: »

Belgium pilots kicking off now. This is extremely serious for FR.

Same day as Sweden as well.

Clearly while represented by different unions and having different requests, pilots in various countries are synching-up to maximise impact.

That is a serious escalation.

PCros

What are the numbers of pilots per country currently are/planning striking? Ireland have approx 100 and Sweden approx 40?

I'm just wondering out of 4200 pilots will this affect them at all or is there one country that could hurt them hard if they have a lot of unionised pilots? Ryanair have been quite efficient at moving pilots from other countries to strike-affected areas etc.

In fairness we all forgot about the rostering issues fairly fast which led to them cancelling 20,000 flights so it will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Bob24

To be honest I’m not sure if and how it could be done, but given how this is spreading and if someone finds a practical way of doing it, I wouldn’t discard some type of action from contractor pilots.

Bob24

Quite limited but there is a bit of feedback from a Swedish union here: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ryanair-pilots-in-sweden-and-belgium-set-to-strike-on-the-same-day-37174882.html

Apparently Ryanair is unhappy to engage with some of the representatives sent by the union there - on that point it sounds similar to the Irish situation.

Idbatterim

given the scale of ryanair, could they simply train up far more pilots? to increase supply and put pressure on the existing ones?

billy few mates

Idbatterim wrote: »

given the scale of ryanair, could they simply train up far more pilots? to increase supply and put pressure on the existing ones?

Great idea, if they start now it could all be over by Christmas...

billy few mates

Christmas 2028...:rolleyes:

View Profile

Idbatterim wrote:

given the scale of ryanair, could they simply train up far more pilots? to increase supply and put pressure on the existing ones?

No. Experienced Captains are a rarity(especially those who wish to work for Ryanair), and take
years to gain that level of experience.

Bob24

View Profile wrote: »

No. Experienced Captains are a rarity(especially those who wish to work for Ryanair), and take
years to gain that level of experience.

I thought pilots were just glorified taxi drivers ... can’t be that hard to find? ;-)

Irish Steve

Bob24 wrote: »

I thought pilots were just glorified taxi drivers ... can’t be that hard to find? ;-)

And if there was ever a comment made by Michael O'Leary that has come home to haunt him in spades, that has to be it.

The unfortunate reality is that this dispute has been building and escalating for a very long time, and the equally long term and entrenched refusal of Ryanair to acknowledge or recognise any form of union membership or negotiation rights only served to harden attitudes across the board.

The change of direction and policy by the Ryanair management last year opened the flood gates, it's taken a while to get organised and start to make serious waves that are now being felt across the entire organisation, and to make it worse, the HR side of the organisation has very little experience of dealing with labour organisations.

What makes it worse is that on the union side, there are very clear indications of people outside of Ryanair who have a very different agenda to those that work for Ryanair, and in some cases, the external people are in a position to significantly influence how the negotiating process is conducted, and some of the long term objectives of the external people can at best be described as being in conflict with the intentions and best interests of the Ryanair membership. Bluntly, some of the unions across Europe woud be very happy to destroy Ryanair, and that would be very bad for Ireland and for aviation in general.

Having said that, I need to balance that by making it clear that (personal opinion) some of the things that Ryanair have done as part of their drive to eliminate costs across the board have not been good for the long term viability of aviation and the employees of the company, so change is going to have to come there, and if it means slightly higher costs for the travelling public, or lower profit margins, that price will have to be paid.

There's fault on both sides, but arriving at a sensible middle ground will not be quick or easy, given some of the other factors that are in the mix.

I've been around long enough to remember some of the very acrimonious disputes between unions and employers and even Governments, the UK Miners strike being one of the most memorable, and that took a very long time to resolve, and in some ways, it never was really resolved as such, and given the size and scope of the modern Ryanair, there are a lot of people out there who for historic reasons have them in their sights as a valid target, and they are not likely to back down any time soon from the sort of confrontations that we are seeing now.

The next few months are likely to be very turbulent, and as far as Ryanair are concerned, what emerges from the other end of this sausage machine could be very different from the Ryanair that we have been used to seeing in action, and don't underestimate the ability of the Ryanair management to come up with some very creative and possibly controversial solutions to their problems.

billy few mates

Bob24 wrote: »

I thought pilots were just glorified taxi drivers ... can’t be that hard to find? ;-)

Irish Steve wrote: »

And if there was every a comment made by Michael O'Leary that has come home to haunt him in spades, that has to be it.

The unfortunate reality is that this dispute has been building and escalating for a very long time, and the equally long term and entrenched refusal of Ryanair to acknowledge or recognise any form of union membership or negotiation rights only served to harden attitudes across the board.

The change of direction and policy by the Ryanair management last year opened the flood gates, it's taken a while to get organised and start to make serious waves that are now being felt across the entire organisation, and to make it worse, the HR side of the organisation has very little experience of dealing with labour organisations.

What makes it worse is that on the union side, there are very clear indications of people outside of Ryanair who have a very different agenda to those that work for Ryanair, and in some cases, the external people are in a position to significantly influence how the negotiating process is conducted, and some of the long term objectives of the external people can at best be described as being in conflict with the intentions and best interests of the Ryanair membership. Bluntly, some of the unions across Europe woud be very happy to destroy Ryanair, and that would be very bad for Ireland and for aviation in general.

Having said that, I need to balance that by making it clear that (personal opinion) some of the things that Ryanair have done as part of their drive to eliminate costs across the board have not been good for the long term viability of aviation and the employees of the company, so change is going to have to come there, and if it means slightly higher costs for the travelling public, or lower profit margins, that price will have to be paid.

There's fault on both sides, but arriving at a sensible middle ground will not be quick or easy, given some of the other factors that are in the mix.

I've been around long enough to remember some of the very acrimonious disputes between unions and employers and even Governments, the UK Miners strike being one of the most memorable, and that took a very long time to resolve, and in some ways, it never was really resolved as such, and given the size and scope of the modern Ryanair, there are a lot of people out there who for historic reasons have them in their sights as a valid target, and they are not likely to back down any time soon from the sort of confrontations that we are seeing now.

The next few months are likely to be very turbulent, and as far as Ryanair are concerned, what emerges from the other end of this sausage machine could be very different from the Ryanair that we have been used to seeing in action, and don't underestimate the ability of the Ryanair management to come up with some very creative and possibly controversial solutions to their problems.

In fairness he called them 'glorified Bus drivers, not taxi drivers, there is a difference....;)

Anahita

Netherlands-based pilots, too!

Bob24

billy few mates wrote: »

In fairness he called them 'glorified Bus drivers, not taxi drivers, there is a difference....;)

He might have made another comment talking about bus drivers, but he definitly called them glorified taxi drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgUldGXfRSg

rivegauche

Some here think Ryanair is about to collapse.

At the moment Ryanair's contractor companies are out and about offering 5 year contracts at market leading rates for qualified Captains on type and most definitely not prop planes.

Ryanair will never let this happen again. They'll have enough contractors to cover themselves in future and the employed Captains will find themselves isolated. They'll be Union members but Union members will end up being less than 20% of the workforce with little to no influence.


The Unions have now probably ensured that pilots can't expect full time employment going forward.

Comhrá

British Ryanair pilots issue ‘failure to agree notice’


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/british-ryanair-pilots-issue-failure-to-agree-notice-1.3583527

Irish Steve

rivegauche wrote: »

Some here think Ryanair is about to collapse.

At the moment Ryanair's contractor companies are out and about offering 5 year contracts at market leading rates for qualified Captains on type and most definitely not prop planes.

Ryanair will never let this happen again. They'll have enough contractors to cover themselves in future and the employed Captains will find themselves isolated. They'll be Union members but Union members will end up being less than 20% of the workforce with little to no influence.

The Unions have now probably ensured that pilots can't expect full time employment going forward.

You think?

I don't want to see Ryanair fall away, or lose it's place in the market, but there will have to be some fundamental changes in the way they operate, and one of those changes that's not yet been determined is their use of "contractors", as their present system has been well and truly flagged as unacceptable by the EU and Irish Government, as it relies on a "self employed" model that does not meet the EU definitions of "self employment" for a number of reasons.

It's very quiet on that subject at the moment, but the sorts of changes that will be forced on them will be that "contractors" will have to get holiday pay and other benefits that at present they are excluded from by their employment model.

So, you can expect to see a lot of changes going forward, but the exact nature of those changes has not yet become clear, as it will require legislation to put into effect, and that may not be possible until after a general election.

rivegauche

Irish Steve wrote: »

You think?

Yes, I do. A striking Pilot for a single day can cost more than a years salary for a legally employed contractor pilot with every t cross and i dotted.
They'll contract them to the exact letter of the law if they need to because Contractors don't strike even if or where they are legally allowed to.
That will be Ryanair 2.0; strikeproof.

duskyjoe

wow, it’s getting toasty here.

Irish Steve

rivegauche wrote: »

Yes, I do. A striking Pilot for a single day can cost more than a years salary for a legally employed contractor pilot with every t cross and i dotted.
They'll contract them to the exact letter of the law if they need to because Contractors don't strike even if or where they are legally allowed to.
That will be Ryanair 2.0; strikeproof.

I wish I had your confidence. It is not yet clear if it will be possible to bring "contractor" employment into line with the legislative requirements.
Then there is the issue of other flight crew, and other areas of the airline, it won't be possible to use "contractors" for every area of the operation, and like it or not, the unions now have a foot in the door, and will be working very hard to do everything they can to force massive change on Ryanair.
This is far from over, and will have repercussions for many years to come.

rivegauche

What's the obstacle? Money? That's not an obstacle.
A contractor won't complain about his current contract holder if he is being paid well.
If the business is "mobile" and there are none more mobile than aviation then the Governments back off and don't apply the same rules as they would apply to captive tax subjects. Expect Ireland, Poland and maybe the likes of Luxembourg to facilitate Ryanair if there are tax receipts in it for them greater than the taxes on wages foregone.

Comhrá

rivegauche wrote: »

Yes, I do. A striking Pilot for a single day can cost more than a years salary for a legally employed contractor pilot with every t cross and i dotted.
They'll contract them to the exact letter of the law if they need to because Contractors don't strike even if or where they are legally allowed to.
That will be Ryanair 2.0; strikeproof.

...

rivegauche

Already happening. Poland and Ireland are looking the other way where Ryanair or any multi-national is concerned.
No need to read the tea leaves. They are now targeting experienced Pilots, not cadets. They are offering longer contracts at better rates of pay. They are spinning up Poland which is the most "business friendly" Country in Europe with regard to exploitation of labour. I doubt the Aer Lingus shop stewards who have lived a charmed life for decades are able to see this but the Pilots in Ryanair would be aware of the precariousness of employment in the European market.