Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

If the business is "mobile" and there are none more mobile than aviation then the Governments back off and don't apply the same rules as they would apply to captive tax subjects. Expect Ireland, Poland and maybe the likes of Luxembourg to facilitate Ryanair if there are tax receipts in it for them greater than the taxes on wages foregone.

At the moment the EU is drastically losing public support in large key countries in good part because it has been facilitating these types of busieness practices (extreme reliance on contractors based in countries where labour cost is lower or which help evade fiscal or labour legislation).

I think for Ryanair to plan for a business model which depends even more on these schemes would be strongly misreading the political mood in Europe: national politicians in many countries as well as EU officials in Brussels know very well that if they don’t address public concerns around these things the treat to the EU will keep growing, so they will go after the worst offenders and Ryanair would be an ideal catch for the EC to make an exemple.

View Profile

Rivegauche you do realise that Ryanair can recognise Unions, pay staff fairly, treat customers properly and still make money?! These things aren't mutually exclusive.

O'Leary can continue to go full Stalin on his staff but the clever thing to do would be swallow his pride, admit he was wrong with his model of bleeding his staff dry and actually run the company like an adult.

Southwest airlines have some of the best paid staff in the US and the company is prospering because staff and in turn customers and in turn shareholders are happy.
That is the model the Board should aim for.

rivegauche

View Profile wrote: »

Rivegauche you do realise that Ryanair can recognise Unions, pay staff fairly, treat customers properly and still make money?! These things aren't mutually exclusive.

O'Leary can continue to go full Stalin on his staff but the clever thing to do would be swallow his pride, admit he was wrong with his model of bleeding his staff dry and actually run the company like an adult.

Southwest airlines have some of the best paid staff in the US and the company is prospering because staff and in turn customers and in turn shareholders are happy.
That is the model the Board should aim for.

You are naive.
You do realise that Ryanair aims to put most airlines out of business. M O'L sees 5 airline groups being left. If there were Unions in Ryanair before Aer Lingus came under IAG's wing Evan Cullen would have been calling strikes at Ryanair every week just out of the interests of self-preservation.
Why leave your destiny within the control of your enemy when you can control your own destiny.
Hence they have switched to 5 year contracts for experienced flight crew and concentrated on basing from multi-national friendly States within the E.U. in the last year. They will not leave themselves susceptible to strikes in the future. Their few employed pilots will be free to join Unions and they'll engage with them but when the Unions go on strike they'll have enough contractors available to let them throw strops without it affecting their operations.

L1011

You seem to think there is a surplus of pilots willing to work as contractors. Ryanair have a pilot shortage as it is and operations are crumbling.

You cannot apply IT industry concepts of contractor to this.

mattser

The latest Ryanair traffic statistics show that the number of passengers carried by the airline grew to 13.1 million customers in July, a 4% increase on the same month last year.
Not bad given the circumstances.

CoisFharraige

mattser wrote: »

The latest Ryanair traffic statistics show that the number of passengers carried by the airline grew to 13.1 million customers in July, a 4% increase on the same month last year.
Not bad given the circumstances.

Will be more interesting to see August / September numbers as the strikes were only kicking off in July for the first time, whereas now it’s in the news everyday. More so September as August traffic will have been booked prior to strikes mostly (kids holidays etc).

To be honest unless people have trips they cannot afford to lose out on I think people will continue to book with them if the price is right.

duskyjoe

in the mean time share price tanking. pitiful state of affairs.

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

You seem to think there is a surplus of pilots willing to work as contractors. Ryanair have a pilot shortage as it is and operations are crumbling.

You cannot apply IT industry concepts of contractor to this.

You seem to think Pilots are superstar snowflakes. The same rules apply in any tight market. The job providers with the best balance of pay, locations, opportunities and conditions get the employees.
Ryanair has changed it's model and is no longer concentrating on hiring cadets.
Ryanair works its employees hard but they get to be home almost every night unless something happens and they get to be based in a Western World Country where they want to be.

My Company is filled with tens of thousands of highly skilled in-demand employees in a very tight labour market where the number of vacancies industry wide is at the highest level it has ever been who could be earning more elsewhere but the employees work on what are still outrageously good salaries because the terms and conditions are so good in that they get to live their lives in a good part of the world and their work/life balance is near perfect despite being worked hard. they also get to make long term plans in full time employment and due to this Militant Union action that is the one thing that Ryanair will no longer be able to offer to their pilots. It will be 5 year contracts on a like it or lump it basis; Ryanair can't afford to be immobilised by Unions protecting the jobs of people in competitor companies.
My company has an employee representative group which guards our interests as opposed to the interests of employees in the companies with which we are fiercely competitive. That is what Ryanair wanted for their pilots but that is not to be as the Union activists have taken hold.

Bob24

CoisFharraige wrote: »

To be honest unless people have trips they cannot afford to lose out on I think people will continue to book with them if the price is right.

Agreed. But at the same time I think it could hit their profits on high price tickets (for exemple very busy periods or booking just a day or 2 before the flight). Those are probably important to the airline as they are the highest margin passengers on the plane (i.e. the ones making real money for the airline), and since when people are willing to buy an expensive ticket it probably means the journey is of special importance to them they will probably think twice before doing it with Ryanair.

rivegauche

duskyjoe wrote: »

in the mean time share price tanking. pitiful state of affairs.

Some would say now is the time to buy. I'd be of that opinion. The cost of the strikes will be in part offset by the reduced cost of the share buyback which Ryanair has committed itself to.

NH2013

rivegauche wrote: »

You seem to think Pilots are superstar snowflakes. The same rules apply in any tight market. The job providers with the best balance of pay, locations, opportunities and conditions get the employees.

Correct, which is why Ryanair is having such issues with staff retention, it's why over 700 pilots left last year alone and forced them to cancel over 20,000 flights.

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair works its employees hard but they get to be home almost every night unless something happens and they get to be based in a Western World Country where they want to be.

Actually the ability to be based in a "Western World Country where they want to be" is what they are striking over, they're demanding a clear transparent basing agreement to bring an end to the practice of being uprooted away from your family and sent to a base in the middle of nowhere in Morocco, the Canaries, Hungary or for instance; Poland.

rivegauche wrote: »

My Company is filled with tens of thousands of highly skilled in-demand employees in a very tight labour market where the number of vacancies industry wide is at the highest level it has ever been who could be earning more elsewhere but the employees work on what are still outrageously good salaries because the terms and conditions are so good in that they get to live their lives in a good part of the world and their work/life balance is near perfect despite being worked hard.

Ryanair pilots are not on strike about how hard they're worked, they're on strike over how they're treated. The reason they're leaving, with many of them taking pay cuts to leave and go work as First Officers is because of how they're being treated, not how much they're paid. Your point holds,but not in the way you think it does, it's working against Ryanair that even though they may offer more money they can't hold onto staff due to the working conditions and moral issues.

rivegauche wrote: »

It will be 5 year contracts on a like it or lump it basis;

And the pilots have decided to lump it.

rivegauche

You are knowingly misrepresenting the situation.

Ryanair's problems with staff retention is because they chose up until now and in a tight labour market turned out to be a Cadet training school for the rest of the industry. They've changed their strategy.

NH2013

rivegauche wrote: »

You are knowingly misrepresenting the situation.

Ryanair's problems with staff retention is because they chose up until now and in a tight labour market turned out to be a Cadet training school for the rest of the industry. They've changed their strategy.

How have they changed their strategy though, what have they done to address the issues that were causing so many of their staff to leave for other airlines?

The example of Southwest has been given as a Low Cost Airline that has unions, treats their staff well and pays their staff well, yet still makes plenty of money. The thing Southwest has going for it is that people see it as a career airline, they're happy to join and give 25-30 years service.

Ryanair on the other hand has very few people joining who don't see themselves leaving after 4-5 years. If Ryanair is to change that and make it a place people are happy to spend a career at then they've lots of work to do, and culture is one of the biggest changes needed. It's not about the money for most of the pilots leaving, the money is reasonable in comparison to other airlines, it's almost all down to how they're treated.

rivegauche

20% pay increase and they are bonding their trainees but not forcing them to get in to additional debt up front where they need to seek out the highest paid job elsewhere that they can get once they are experienced.
The Unions are just exploiting this window of opportunity until the benefits of those changes start been seen. The Unions have a very small window of opportunity and they are exploiting it. Even by next summer they won't be in a position to inflict as much damage as they are doing now in August and in the coming Christmas.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

It will be 5 year contracts on a like it or lump it basis

And they'll lump it with Ryanair getting no pilots

There are not enough pilots

There are not enough people training to be pilots

You are utterly refusing to accept those two undeniable facts. Your fantasyland HR practices won't work here; as Ryanair's staff shortages and rolling cancellations show.

ELM327

Now I'm a relative newcomer to this. But as a customer of ryanair (including flights booked to barcelona in september) I do have a vested interest.

Nonetheless. Can someone explain in simple terms why they don't just sack all of the pilots involved in the action?

rivegauche

Cancellations are an artificially created situation. Pilots can't continue to strike indefinitely and they've had to keep their powder dry until now to maximise impact at a time when Ryanair have least ability to respond.

737 piloting positions in Europe are hard to come by. There are more wannabe pilots than qualified pilots. The changes implemented will ensure that Ryanair can retain those pilots they wish to retain and with two seats in the cockpit they will be able to train up a steady stream of fresh pilots which they are now willing to pay to retain.

rivegauche

ELM327 wrote: »

Now I'm a relative newcomer to this. But as a customer of ryanair (including flights booked to barcelona in september) I do have a vested interest.

Nonetheless. Can someone explain in simple terms why they don't just sack all of the pilots involved in the action?

In the short term they can't and they certainly can't sack them purely for trade union membership but they will take steps to isolate the militants and environmental push factors will be used to make them feel unwelcome. The closure of Dublin routes over Winter will allow them to legally make a number of pilots(who happen to be militant) redundant.

Locker10a

ELM327 wrote: »

Nonetheless. Can someone explain in simple terms why they don't just sack all of the pilots involved in the action?

Pilots are actually the people who fly the planes, maybe you hadn’t realised, but planes actually don’t fly themselves

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Cancellations are an artificially created situation. Pilots can't continue to strike indefinitely and they've had to keep their powder dry until now to maximise impact at a time when Ryanair have least ability to respond.

Ryanair were suffering rolling cancellations before any strikes; since last year in fact.

Unless Ryanair intend to provide ab initio training, the pool of wannabe pilots is irrelevant - the numbers able to pay to get to CPL or fATPL status is dwindling year by year. And considering you were trying to blame people leaving on them using Ryanair for training alone you may want to consider the practicalities of that

Type ratings are not as complicated to get as you seem to think. Ryanair requires all incoming pilots to do "their" 737 TR already, ignoring that they may already have one.

ELM327 wrote: »

Now I'm a relative newcomer to this. But as a customer of ryanair (including flights booked to barcelona in september) I do have a vested interest.

Nonetheless. Can someone explain in simple terms why they don't just sack all of the pilots involved in the action?

Because there are no new pilots to hire to replace them and won't be for many years even if there is a concerted effort to increase pilot training.

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

Ryanair were suffering rolling cancellations before any strikes; since last year in fact.

Ryanair are carrying more passengers than last year. What is it? 7%. Ryanair are hurting mainly because of their highly aggressive expansion plans than lack of pilots. If they had no ambition and chose to stagnate they'd have no problems with labour shortages but that isn't to be benefit of Ryanair, their employees, travelling public or Ireland. Stagnation is certainly to the benefit of the competitors.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair are carrying more passengers than last year. What is it? 7%. Ryanair are hurting mainly because of their highly aggressive expansion plans than lack of pilots. If they had no ambition and chose to stagnate they'd have no problems with labour shortages but that isn't to be benefit of Ryanair, their employees, travelling public or Ireland. Stagnation is certainly to the benefit of the competitors.

Head in the sand again

They should be carrying significantly more than that going on fleet size, load factor and historical fleet use figures. But they aren't. Planes are sitting on the ground and flights are being cancelled.

All your militant fantasyland HR stuff would damage the airline even more; and should fake self employment be properly stamped could actually destroy them.

rivegauche

They are at 96% occupancy on roughly 7% higher passenger volumes
If they were lying about this their shareholders would sue as these are key metrics upon which the Market are invited to invest in the Company.
I suggest you are not being truthful.

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair are hurting mainly because of their highly aggressive expansion plans than lack of pilots.

How is that not the exact same thing?

You seem to be over-emphasing how much more Ryanair will pay pilots and not how they are going to address the striking pilot's actual issues with the company. Much like Ryanair themselves are...

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

They are at 96% occupancy on roughly 7% higher passenger volumes
If they were lying about this their shareholders would sue as these are key metrics upon which the Market are invited to invest in the Company.
I suggest you are not being truthful.

Load factor is only on flights which actually operate.

I could fly a frame once a week and sell 96% of the seats on it and I'd have a 96% LF

I could fly the frame 8 legs a day, 7 days a week at sell 95% of the seats and I'd have a 95% LF.

It appears you'd consider the 95% LF to be worse from your utterly simplistic view on this.

rivegauche

john boye wrote: »

How is that not the exact same thing?

You seem to be over-emphasing how much more Ryanair will pay pilots and not how they are going to address the striking pilot's actual issues with the company. Much like Ryanair themselves are...

I direct you back to https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107660975&postcount=533
Ryanair have reached out to the Pilots and the Pilots haven't the courtesy to acknowledge.

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

Load factor is only on flights which actually operate.

I could fly a frame once a week and sell 96% of the seats on it and I'd have a 96% LF

I could fly the frame 8 legs a day, 7 days a week at sell 95% of the seats and I'd have a 95% LF.

It appears you'd consider the 95% LF to be worse from your utterly simplistic view on this.

If I remember the press releases from Ryanair correctly they said roughly 4% of European flights were affected and there are only so many strike days in the year so 96% allowing for strikes in the quarter is still near enough 96%..
The combination of Bad Weather, Airport congestion and ATC are having more impact on Ryanair in high summer than the strikes.
I put it to you that you are being intentionally deceitful in the arguments that you present.

NH2013

rivegauche wrote: »

I direct you back to https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107660975&postcount=533
Ryanair have reached out to the Pilots and the Pilots haven't the courtesy to acknowledge.

Actually, it's closer to Ryanair say they have reached out to the pilots, and Ryanair say the pilots haven't the courtesy to acknowledge. Two very different things.

Ryanair's supposed agreement to the conditions it actually full of get out clauses if you actually go through it and read it from an entirely skeptical pilot body's point of view.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

If I remember the press releases from Ryanair correctly they said roughly 4% of European flights were affected and there are only so many strike days in the year so 96% allowing for strikes in the quarter is still near enough 96%..

You don't understand what load factor means. Please go learn what it means before trying again

You have shown a striking lack of knowledge of anything aviation specific all through this thread - you should learn about pilot training processes, type ratings, the importance of training captains, etc etc also.

rivegauche wrote: »

I put it to you that you are being intentionally deceitful in the arguments that you present.

Prove it or withdraw the accusation.

rivegauche

Ah L1011 you have been angling for a way to ban me for a while. Is this your moment?
I've already picked up an infraction for calling an obviously Naive person Naive.
Got to drop out for a while now. Got things to do. I've only got so much time available to me to counter the spin from Union sympathizers.