Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Ah L1011 you have been angling for a way to ban me for a while.

I haven't. You do seem to like the baseless allegations.

rivegauche wrote: »

I've only got so much time available to me to counter the spin from Union sympathizers.

I'm not a union sympathiser. I'm just calling you out on your ill-informed nonsense.

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

I direct you back to https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107660975&postcount=533
Ryanair have reached out to the Pilots and the Pilots haven't the courtesy to acknowledge.

I said that you were avoiding addressing the Pilots issues and you replied with an official statement from Ryanair. How odd...

Wanderer78

rivegauche wrote:

Ah L1011 you have been angling for a way to ban me for a while. Is this your moment? I've already picked up an infraction for calling an obviously Naive person Naive. Got to drop out for a while now. Got things to do. I've only got so much time available to me to counter the spin from Union sympathizers.

Thankfully Ryanair doesn't engage in spin tactics!

View Profile

Ah here.

Evan Cullen isn't Aer Lingus management and isn't CEO of IAG.
He is an employee who happened to be elected President of IALPA by members(Aer Lingus/Cityjet/Stobart/ Ryanair/CHC pilots).
You sound as paranoid as O'Leary with your ramblings of Evan conspiring to control Ryanair for Aer Lingus' gain.
Take your tinfoil hat off. Evan is purely standing up for pilot's worldwide, he has nothing to do with Aer Lingus' business strategy. In fact as a union leader, Aer Lingus probably despise him!

As alluded to by other learned boardsies here, you don't really seem to grasp the aviation business too well.
No pilot really chooses to be a contractor. There are very few legal benefits of being one. Cadets starting in the business are the only one's willing to except this practice, and that's because they've little choice.
So your farcical notion that Ryanair can transition their workforce to a majority of contract staff is dellusional.

Reports from Ryanair's training department are direct entry pilots are withdrawing their applications. Who wants to join a company that is axing their workforce during an aviation boom?!
And to make matters clear, Ryanair is not offering industry leading pay. Their salaries are the lowest compared with Easy/ Norwegian/ Jet2/ Veuling/wow/ etc.

ELM327

rivegauche wrote: »

In the short term they can't and they certainly can't sack them purely for trade union membership but they will take steps to isolate the militants and environmental push factors will be used to make them feel unwelcome. The closure of Dublin routes over Winter will allow them to legally make a number of pilots(who happen to be militant) redundant.

You can legally fire people for striking, once you fire everyone who strikes and you don't rehire them.


My question is more regarding if they sack them how easy is it to replace them? This isnt like the luas strikes where you could replace the drivers easily as it's an unskilled position. Is there a staff shortage or how is the labour market for pilots?

Locker10a wrote: »

Pilots are actually the people who fly the planes, maybe you hadn’t realised, but planes actually don’t fly themselves

Very helpful tone. Thanks for that. :rolleyes:

MoeJay

I've held back for a long time now on this one as it always had the potential to really become one hell of a debate - which for the most part has been pretty good! Ryanair, for all that it is, has the ability to create strong responses one way or the other but there hasn't been too much vitriol that I've seen here anyway.

This whole situation stems from Ryanair's own failure:

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/cancellations-punctuality-update/

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/uk-world/ryanair-admits-screwingup-on-pilot-roster-it-will-take-time-to-restore-confidence-36302387.html

David O'Brien, chief commercial officer, said the "very specific rostering failure" let to a huge number of pilots being given holiday time off.

"There was a screw-up, a management failure, whereby at a very specific level, 50% of the pilot leave was allocated in the last four months of the year, which doesn't work."

This issue was well covered at the time..

..this led to Ryanair's own decision to recognise unions:

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-confirms-it-will-recognise-cabin-crew-unions/

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-agrees-to-recognise-pilot-unions-to-avoid-widespread-customer-disruptions-over-christmas-period/

"Recognising unions will be a significant change for Ryanair"

In that voluntary decision (no compulsion in law exists in Ireland to recognise trade unions), Ryanair took the decision which included taking on all that union recognition involved - be it good or bad (depending on your view I guess.)

But most importantly, Ryanair in its own decision, accepts that it is ceding an element of control of how its employees are treated in all aspects of their employment. That is a reality of their decision. The employer cannot therefore impose total control on the relationship between the comnpany and workers. It would appear to me that this issue of control is the biggest block towards Ryanair's engagement - they will "recognise" a union but they will dictate what exactly that means. That's not how it works.

I've seen the same old argument in this thread about how people are being led up the garden path by others who have ulterior motives; you do a disservice to the pilots involved in this dispute by making an argument that they somehow are being duped into doing things they don't want to do. To suggest they lack the capability to make up their own mind about how they would like the lives to be organised and how they wish to interact with their employer is unfair. I believe they are in control of their decisions.

Ryanair management for all the plaudits they receive have made a critical error in allowing a serious dispute to result in industrial action during the period over which they make the most money. The most basic airline management course will tell you to avoid at all costs strikes in the summer; the fact that there is likely to be action across several of its markets belies their constant repetition of the "small minority" argument that has been trotted out.

There is an argument about the pilot numbers: Ryanair themselves admit that there is an ongoing difficulty:

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/ryanair-pessimistic-as-pilot-shortage-and-oil-crunch-bites-a3844406.html

O’Leary said: “We expect the market for experienced pilots in Europe to remain tight for the next 12 months and, accordingly, this will continue to put upward pressure on staff costs for all EU airlines.”

This also, I believe, flies in the face of their threats of redundancies. There may well be a lot of new hire pilots but the pressure exists elsewhere in the system. It's no coincidence that Easyjet were in Dublin this week making job offers. Ryanair cannot afford to lose a resource they admit they do not have enough of.

As for the contractor model that has been mentioned (many times): Ryanair's unique contribution to the employment model of airline staff in Europe is, in my own opinion, a cancer on the industry. However, it has to be said that if the contractor model was as bulletproof as some seem to think it is, it begs the question as to why Ryanair have any directly employed crew at all? I do agree with earlier posters that, eventually, Europe will not necessarily ban their methodology of contract employment but rather classify these people as employees in the eyes of the law. It won't be driven through the airline industry but from others.

Should Ryanair decide to move all of their people to Poland it will not negate the requirement to have crews based all over Europe to run the operation (87 places for overnights???) and they will not escape the contractor/employee issue.

Which brings me back to what is going on now. A "fair and transparent" mechanism for pilots seems like a reasonable request. Seniority as it applies throughout the airline industry is accepted as a viable way of doing business. Southwest (as Ryanair like to liken themselves to) operate their 700-odd aircraft quite successfully. Give the pilots an element of control about how things are organised and distributed. Make it system-wide to put everyone on the same level. I don't see how that changes the complexity of what apparently is a completely random system as it applies now. But what I do believe is the fact that Ryanair would have to give up its complete control on basing etc is what is really getting to them. At the bottom of it all, have they really changed?

With fronts opening up across Europe, is it really just a small number of pilots in Ireland who are the outliers or does the problem lie elsewhere?

L1011

ELM327 wrote: »

Is there a staff shortage or how is the labour market for pilots?

Massive staff shortages, to the point that Ryanair were already suffering significantly. The "leave issues" last year were actually staff shortages, and so on.

If you needed to hire 300 qualified, type-rated pilots you'd be hiring for years before you filled all the positions.

Add to that that most of those striking are captains and you can lengthen that timeline further.

ELM327

L1011 wrote: »

Massive staff shortages, to the point that Ryanair were already suffering significantly. The "leave issues" last year were actually staff shortages, and so on.

If you needed to hire 300 qualified, type-rated pilots you'd be hiring for years before you filled all the positions.

Add to that that most of those striking are captains and you can lengthen that timeline further.

OK so that explains it.
I'd have expected Micko to have fired the lot of them by now looking at this from an external viewpoint, but a shortage of replacements would answer that.

CoisFharraige

rivegauche wrote: »

Got to drop out for a while now.

Please, please do.

LeChienMefiant

View Profile wrote: »

Evan is purely standing up for pilot's worldwide, he has nothing to do with Aer Lingus' business strategy.

Including the US unions.

Wanderer78

another one day strike on the 10th for irish pilots, gonna get very nasty!

Anahita

RA seems to have extended an invitation to meet Forsa on the 7th at 11am so it remains to be seen how that goes!

The staff and some unions in all the countries seem to have great solidarity and be taking strength from each other. The 10th is the same day mentioned by the Swedish/Belgian based staff.

https://twitter.com/Ryanair/status/1024977688849776640

CoisFharraige

So we have Ireland, Sweden, Holland, Belgium, Germany all striking on August 10th... That'll be messy. Throw in BALPA's move yesterday and there'll be very few countries that aren't striking left.

Bob24

CoisFharraige wrote: »

So we have Ireland, Sweden, Holland, Belgium, Germany all striking on August 10th... That'll be messy. Throw in BALPA's move yesterday and there'll be very few countries that aren't striking left.

It will be interesting to see how many flights from Ireland are cancelled compared to a day when only Irish pilots strike.

castie

Sorry I've skimmed the thread but havent found a list of the 11 demands from the pilots.

Have they been published?

Some of the cabin crew ones seem ridiculous.

Not to have to open an Irish account...pretty sure most companies will only pay into an Irish account.

Contacts in the employees language, again pretty sure the likes of Microsoft don't offer this for Irish employees and their workforce would on the same diversity level if not above.

This isn't to say they don't have some valid concerns but seeing that level of stuff just makes it seem like they are being unreasonable.

harr

Probably no one can give me give me answer ...but how bad is this likely to get.
Large number of us booked to fly early September to my sisters wedding in Spain and don’t want to leave it till last minute to reorganise transport.
Doesn’t help we can’t cancel the flights.
Our first time flying with Ryanair as well..

CoisFharraige

castie wrote: »

Not to have to open an Irish account...pretty sure most companies will only pay into an Irish account.

Contacts in the employees language, again pretty sure the likes of Microsoft don't offer this for Irish employees and their workforce would on the same diversity level if not above.

Some of the cabin crew ones seem ridiculous.

No insurance to cover accidents at work?
Wanting to be under an Irish contract so that they can actually get a house where they live?
No pay for any sick day?
Trade union delegates from the airline (cabin crew) get no days off to do whatever union-related work they need to do and Ryanair doesn't recognise them?
Respect, and an end to bullying and contractors?

Ridiculous? Come on, I don't think any of the demands are. Surely getting contracts (I presume contacts was a typo) in another language for a company making in excess of E1bn for 18/19 year olds who probably can't understand them isn't ridiculous.

Just to give people that aren't aware an idea and if they want to know, cabin crew have massive problems at Ryanair specifically - it's not an industry problem.

Just some daily things like when they call crew control, they can be waiting for hours to get through (and pay for the phone bill obviously which is very expensive for an international call of that length). They get called to disciplinary meeting in Dublin if they don't sell enough duty free and scratchcards. Here they get shouted at by MOL clones. When you compare the conditions they have to almost every other carrier in Europe it's abysmal to be honest how they get treated.

Does not have to be like that!

Anahita

CoisFharraige

Thanks so much for this! I tried to explain to this poster on Trip Advisor forums about how this wasn't the same as any regular Air Line industrial dispute and RA was unique in its mistreatment of staff and that it couldn't be compared to BA etc but to no avail. Anyway, the same types who think, "Fire them all and start over!" or..."If your flight is cancelled, it's ok, stop bellyaching. Just go the week after instead." ...there are rarely simple answers in life.

Fagashlil

castie wrote: »

Some of the cabin crew ones seem ridiculous.

Not to have to open an Irish account...pretty sure most companies will only pay into an Irish account.

.

When you're based in mainland Europe, it's ridiculous to have to bank in Ireland.

They're not looking for language contracts, merely contracts reflecting the labour laws etc of the country in which they're based.

Anahita

Exactly and to be entitled to ease in applying for mortgages in the countries where they reside. Can you imagine trying to apply for a mortgage in another country with all the paperwork etc to be translated, notarised and not even having a bank account in the country where you reside (the one where your wages are paid into)?

The whole thing is NUTS.

Bob24

castie wrote: »

Not to have to open an Irish account...pretty sure most companies will only pay into an Irish account.

It was the case it the past but now that systems are all easily interconnected it is usually not a problem to get paid onto any Euro account (personal experience).

In fact my understanding is that with the latest SEPA regulation in this situation it is illegal to discriminate bank accounts based on which country they are based in as long as they are eurozone accounts. Some employers aren’t compliant and as a lone employee it can be ackward to request that your employer complies with the regulation, but if this gets discussed publicly I doubt Ryanair can officially say they are refusing a request consisting of following a European regulation. It would directly open them to legal challenge and possible sanctions.

Irish Steve

Not sure if this is still the case, there were problems a while back for flight deck crew that on landing at an outstation, there's just about time to do a walk round of the aircraft, and then get set up for the next sector, so there's not enough time to go into the terminal to get basics like a sandwich and a bottle of water, so the flight crew were having to pay retail price in order to get a bottle of water etc from the on board catering stock, as with the way that things are in security these days, it's no longer possible to bring supplies for the day on board. That's penny pinching in the extreme, and the sort of thing that caused a lot of bad feeling at the time. It may have changed now.

Re bank accounts, it's very possible that not all the countries that Ryanair employ people in are in the Euro, so having to open an Irish Bank account, and then transfer funds from that account to another country, with the possibility of exchange rate variations, is not exactly helpful. It will certainly have cost implications for the employee that they should not be forced to bear.

If the relevant people in head office or crew control or whereever can't answer the phone to staff immediately, they should either have a facility to be able to send a text to the office to say "call me", so that the employer bears the cost of the call, or the other alternative is for Ryanair to have an ex directory number in country that crew can call at local rates, which then links to head office over an IP link, which in the scale of things is not expensive or unreasonable.

I have no problem with the concept of aggressively managing costs, but I do have a serious problem with the deliberate moving of costs on to staff that can't then recover those costs where they have been incurred as an essential part of performing their duties. It's an indication of how bad things are in Ryanair that it's taken the advent of unions in to the company to bring these issues fully out into the open, they should have been resolved a long time ago by the much trumpeted "internal employee" groups that were supposedly the answer to all of the issues, clearly they were not, and the result is the unrest that is now causing the very visible problems that are ongoing.

castie

CoisFharraige wrote: »

castie wrote: »

Not to have to open an Irish account...pretty sure most companies will only pay into an Irish account.

Contacts in the employees language, again pretty sure the likes of Microsoft don't offer this for Irish employees and their workforce would on the same diversity level if not above.

Some of the cabin crew ones seem ridiculous.

No insurance to cover accidents at work?
Wanting to be under an Irish contract so that they can actually get a house where they live?
No pay for any sick day?
Trade union delegates from the airline (cabin crew) get no days off to do whatever union-related work they need to do and Ryanair doesn't recognise them?
Respect, and an end to bullying and contractors?

Ridiculous? Come on, I don't think any of the demands are. Surely getting contracts (I presume contacts was a typo) in another language for a company making in excess of E1bn for 18/19 year olds who probably can't understand them isn't ridiculous.

Just to give people that aren't aware an idea and if they want to know, cabin crew have massive problems at Ryanair specifically - it's not an industry problem.

Just some daily things like when they call crew control, they can be waiting for hours to get through (and pay for the phone bill obviously which is very expensive for an international call of that length). They get called to disciplinary meeting in Dublin if they don't sell enough duty free and scratchcards. Here they get shouted at by MOL clones. When you compare the conditions they have to almost every other carrier in Europe it's abysmal to be honest how they get treated.

Does not have to be like that!

I clearly said some...and that I understood others but you chose to misquote me and remove that part....
The outrage to my comment seems misplaced given what I actually posted.
The items were request by Irish cabin crew, maybe I misunderstand what that means but I would expect similar to the pilots this would be cabin crew that start and end their day in Ireland.

Bank accounts (AML has companies running scared of foreign payments even inside the EU) and contracts are the same conditions for other companies that make more than Ryanair who base in Ireland. (Apple and Microsoft as two examples...)

castie

Fagashlil wrote: »

castie wrote: »

Some of the cabin crew ones seem ridiculous.

Not to have to open an Irish account...pretty sure most companies will only pay into an Irish account.

.

When you're based in mainland Europe, it's ridiculous to have to bank in Ireland.

They're not looking for language contracts, merely contracts reflecting the labour laws etc of the country in which they're based.

These were announced as Irish cabin crew demands as opposed to foreign based but maybe I am confused on what Irish cabin crew means in that context.

Bob24

castie wrote: »

These were announced as Irish cabin crew demands as opposed to foreign based but maybe I am confused on what Irish cabin crew means in that context.

Even if they are Ireland based, FYI the regulation I was referring to in my previous post saying that Ryanair can’t legally discriminate based on which country the employee’s account is located in as long as it is a eurozone account:


Regulation (EU) No 260/2012, article 9, paragraph 1

A payer making a credit transfer to a payee holding a payment account located within the Union shall not specify the Member State in which that payment account is to be located, provided that the payment account is reachable in accordance with Article 3.


But while not sure I would suspect that crews based in other countries are in effect under Irish contracts which would explain that request as well as the one to have contracts writing in their own language.

castie

Anahita wrote: »

Exactly and to be entitled to ease in applying for mortgages in the countries where they reside. Can you imagine trying to apply for a mortgage in another country with all the paperwork etc to be translated, notarised and not even having a bank account in the country where you reside (the one where your wages are paid into)?

The whole thing is NUTS.

But these are Irish cabin crew demands so surely the mortgage would be in Ireland and a English contract and Irish bank account history would be a plus?

castie

Bob24 wrote: »

castie wrote: »

These were announced as Irish cabin crew demands as opposed to foreign based but maybe I am confused on what Irish cabin crew means in that context.

Even if they are Ireland based, FYI the regulation I was referring to in my previous post saying that Ryanair can’t legally discriminate based on which country the employee’s account is located in as long as it is a eurozone account:


Regulation (EU) No 260/2012, article 9, paragraph 1

A payer making a credit transfer to a payee holding a payment account located within the Union shall not specify the Member State in which that payment account is to be located, provided that the payment account is reachable in accordance with Article 3.


But while not sure I would suspect that crews based in other countries are officially employed in Ireland.

That's interesting, I haven't worked in the eurozone for a bit but in the UK they have AML considerations and prevent salary payment to an account outside of the country. Likely the EU have sorted this then for eurozone countries.
If they are officially employed in Ireland shouldn't the striking number of staff be above a few hundred?

CoisFharraige

Irish Steve wrote: »

Not sure if this is still the case, there were problems a while back for flight deck crew that on landing at an outstation, there's just about time to do a walk round of the aircraft, and then get set up for the next sector, so there's not enough time to go into the terminal to get basics like a sandwich and a bottle of water.

It's worse if anything. Busier skies and more slots means crews are more often than not delayed, and when you have 25 minute from on to off block any sort of a delay is extra duty time for them (which they don't get paid for). They get on stand, deboard, do the walkaround, board, set up the aircraft and push. They bring their own food (and teabags - seriously) or else they pay full price on board. The crew room has ''water fountains'' if you can call them that (mould included!) and you see the cadets with empty sprite bottles and water bottles from the shop refilling them. So yes, you have BA crews flying 3 sector days with absolutely everything paid for (not undermining the work they do - they have their own problems at work) or the equivalent of EZY crews who get the basics paid (I mean basics like food & drink, parking) and get treated like humans. What's the result? Much higher morale (compared to RYR) and well as many have said respect costs diddly-squat but RYR don't seem to understand that.

castie wrote: »

But these are Irish cabin crew demands so surely the mortgage would be in Ireland and a English contract and Irish bank account history would be a plus?

They're the demands across the board - all cabin crew (except Irish obviously) have the problem of being unable to get a mortgage, as your account is in Ireland but live in Europe, so can't get a mortgage in either.

castie

CoisFharraige wrote: »

They're the demands across the board - all cabin crew (except Irish obviously) have the problem of being unable to get a mortgage, as your account is in Ireland but live in Europe, so can't get a mortgage in either.

Isn't that an easy problem to solve yourself though?
My salary isn't paid into the same account that pays the bills at the moment, I transfer it.
Given these are free and online banking makes transfers very easy, it seems weird to take it up as a point of industrial action.
The conditions around turnaround times and sales targets (they aren't working retail) which are not within a persons control make sense to me.

Irish Steve

castie wrote: »

Isn't that an easy problem to solve yourself though?
My salary isn't paid into the same account that pays the bills at the moment, I transfer it.
Given these are free and online banking makes transfers very easy, it seems weird to take it up as a point of industrial action.
The conditions around turnaround times and sales targets (they aren't working retail) which are not within a persons control make sense to me.

The problem with banking is that some institutions and state legislation relating to money laundering now require that the salary is paid directly into the bank account for the granting of a mortgage, and they will not accept a transfer from another account as "payment" for these rules. There is also the possible issue of non Euro based countries, where the sum is not fixed, so can't be directly related to the payslip, that causes issues for bankers.



For me, the issue is that Ryanair has evolved from being a very small local Irish Airline with very little formal HR or admin structure into a very major player with bases and employees in a number of countries, and their administrative and management systems have not evolved in an acceptable way to embrace and cope with those changes, and that lack is now coming home to haunt them big time.