Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

castie

Irish Steve wrote: »

The problem with banking is that some institutions and state legislation relating to money laundering now require that the salary is paid directly into the bank account for the granting of a mortgage, and they will not accept a transfer from another account as "payment" for these rules. There is also the possible issue of non Euro based countries, where the sum is not fixed, so can't be directly related to the payslip, that causes issues for bankers.

For the eurozone looking at the SEPA side of things someone else mentioned it shouldn't be an issue.
For non eurozone, I can see it being an issue but its also an issue for the employer in that case as they also have these restrictions for payment but that's likely where the entity you are working for comes into account.

Bob24

castie wrote: »

If they are officially employed in Ireland shouldn't the striking number of staff be above a few hundred?

Which cabin crew demands are we talking about actually? I don’t think Irish cabin crew has been striking?

Bob24

I honestly didn’t think they’d dare extenting the “Aer Lingus pilots union” type of language to other countries, but:

Ryanair claims this is because the process is being driven by a "...tiny handful of Aer Lingus pilots who are now working with other pilot unions across Europe to create a day of action on Friday 10 August next"

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0802/982708-ryanair/

Blut2

Those tiny handful of Aer Lingus pilots who are convincing hundreds(possibly thousands at this stage?) of pilots from another airline, across an entire continent of countries, to go on strike are really missing their calling in politics. They must be political and communications genii.

Ryanair should really cave to some of these demands sooner rather than later. With the global pilot shortage they're never going to win this in the medium term. If Southwest, and Easyjet closer to home, can maintain their low cost base while treating their staff well (or well...ish in EZY's case) then theres no reason Ryanair can't.

Fagashlil

Bob24 wrote: »

Which cabin crew demands are we talking about actually? I don’t think Irish cabin crew has been striking?

They're almost complete with the Recognition agreement, and the issue of the protected notice is the first major issue, but it's only a matter of time.

But the demands mentioned are the ones from the crew summit a couple of months ago, which was crew from most bases, and an agreed list of grievances.

CoisFharraige

Fagashlil wrote: »

They're almost complete with the Recognition agreement

So had BALPA, but that's gone downhill very quickly.

donkey balls

In a previous life I worked for a airline the company had operations through out the world, My contract was an Irish contract just like someone working in just say London or Frankfurt.
The company I am employed by now is also a European company yet my contract is country specific to Ireland regarding hours of employment holiday entitlements etc.
Yep FR can have both cabin crew and flight crew that are based in another country on an Irish contract?
As for FR to get rid of the full time lads and hire more contractors that's going be going against what they have planned in making the contractors employees, I do believe that the likes of Revenue here and the UK are not happy with pilots employed as contractors due to the lose of PAYE etc.
In another industry that I worked in there was a company more or less like FR who treated their staff with distain that they had a high turnover of staff the moral was shocking.
People left in their droves this company also tried to quash the unions the way they operated was shocking, They were also brought to court about their operating practices and awards made to the former employees.

rivegauche

Another Damp Squib strike.
The strike taking place in a number of countries next week had better be more effective because the number crunchers in Ryanair will run the figures and determine that it is more financially advantageous to tackle the unions rather than placate them.

Ryanair do not want to get in a situation like this where
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-pilots-back-pay-11-pay-increase-1.3395269

Imagine Ryanair having to pay their pilots 2.9% pay increase like Aer Lingus did to just to get the pilots to agree to fly the latest version of their chosen plane, not a completely different plane, just the latest version.
That eats considerably in to the savings on costs which Ryanair can pass on to Customers. RyanAir say that the 737max reduces fuel burn by up to 16% and increases capacity by 4% and straight away a large proportion of those savings would be lost because the Pilots would have their hands out looking for more money; https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-exercises-25-boeing-max-200-options/

BlackandGreen

God its sickening to read all the idiotic comments on the likes of the journal. Literally every time its "wah wah back in the 90's aer lingus charged me ___ made up amount of money for a flight". 
****in knobheads.

Tenger

Another post above making up claims of Ryanair having to increase pilots salary. This is not want is being looked for here.

And throwing out the irrelevant point about the EI deal in 2016 which includes A321Neo flying shows the lack of knowledge about the difference between shorthaul ops and mixed haul ops.

rivegauche

Tenger wrote: »

Another post above making up claims of Ryanair having to increase pilots salary. This is not want is being looked for here.

And throwing out the irrelevant point about the EI deal in 2016 which includes A321Neo flying shows the lack of knowledge about the difference between shorthaul ops and mixed haul ops.

You couldn't be impartial if your life depended upon it.
A32XCEO pilots are transitioning to A32XNEO planes and have their hand out for more money with the support of IALPA! That is a fact that you are not comfortable with.

Masala

BlackandGreen wrote: »

God its sickening to read all the idiotic comments on the likes of the journal. Literally every time its "wah wah back in the 90's aer lingus charged me ___ made up amount of money for a flight". 
****in knobheads.

I agree..... the same old nonsense every time.

Irish Steve

rivegauche wrote: »

You couldn't be impartial if your life depended upon it.
A32XCEO pilots are transitioning to A32XNEO planes and have their hand out for more money with the support of IALPA! That is a fact that you are not comfortable with.

Do you actually know anything about aviation, or are you just spending all your time Google searching to enable you to troll the threads?

CoisFharraige

rivegauche wrote: »

Tenger wrote: »

Another post above making up claims of Ryanair having to increase pilots salary. This is not want is being looked for here.

And throwing out the irrelevant point about the EI deal in 2016 which includes A321Neo flying shows the lack of knowledge about the difference between shorthaul ops and mixed haul ops.

You couldn't be impartial if your life depended upon it.
A32XCEO pilots are transitioning to A32XNEO planes and have their hand out for more money with the support of IALPA! That is a fact that you are not comfortable with.

Yes and do you understand that with that comes mixed ops which is working TA sectors when they would have taken the upgrade for the 330 if they had wanted to do TA sectors. It’s like Ryanair saying that they’re starting routes with the MAX to the US and you then have pilots who will be working TA rotations (which is much much more fatiguing) when they never joined to do TA operations.

Tenger

Masala wrote: »

I agree..... the same old nonsense every time.

I too remember those days, it was a massive duoploly between EI and BA. But it was over 25 years ago, let it go!

Personally I think the growth of Ryanair actually saved EI in the longterm. The competition forced EI over the following 10-20 years to shed its civil service position and become a more efficient company. This saved it in 2002 and 2008. I was an new employee of EI post Cahill Plan and I found it shocking the attitude towards Ryanair. The entrenched union position at the time shocked me, I was just happy to have a job that paid me!

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

You couldn't be impartial if your life depended upon it.
A32XCEO pilots are transitioning to A32XNEO planes and have their hand out for more money with the support of IALPA! That is a fact that you are not comfortable with.

Im trying to be factual.
That article mentions 11% increase over 3 years which is based on a number of productivity deals. The introduction of A321LRs is a part of that. And this isnt just flying a new aircraft, its a shift pattern change. You yourself boasted about how FR pilots get home everynight. The A321LR will mean mixed Transatlantic and shorthaul flying for EI pilots.

From talking to mates in EI this productivity deal is on the table for all sections. I believe that its part of the post IAG merge efficiency program. My ground ops mates got 3% increase last year as part of it.


But this is moving away from Ryanair issues.

rivegauche

Tenger wrote: »

But this is moving away from Ryanair issues.

Same Union which will use the same Modus Operandi.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Another Damp Squib strike.
The strike taking place in a number of countries next week had better be more effective because the number crunchers in Ryanair will run the figures and determine that it is more financially advantageous to tackle the unions rather than placate them.

Ryanair do not want to get in a situation like this where
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-pilots-back-pay-11-pay-increase-1.3395269

Imagine Ryanair having to pay their pilots 2.9% pay increase like Aer Lingus did to just to get the pilots to agree to fly the latest version of their chosen plane, not a completely different plane, just the latest version.
That eats considerably in to the savings on costs which Ryanair can pass on to Customers. RyanAir say that the 737max reduces fuel burn by up to 16% and increases capacity by 4% and straight away a large proportion of those savings would be lost because the Pilots would have their hands out looking for more money; https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-exercises-25-boeing-max-200-options/

Why don't you try and keep your 'outrage' to the issues they are actually striking over instead of making up issues in your head so that you can get outraged about them instead..? :rolleyes:

VG31

BlackandGreen wrote: »

God its sickening to read all the idiotic comments on the likes of the journal. Literally every time its "wah wah back in the 90's aer lingus charged me ___ made up amount of money for a flight". 
****in knobheads.

Exactly, those comments drive me mad! As if we'd still be paying £300 to fly to London if Ryanair hadn't come along! Even if Ryanair didn't exist some other budget airline would have come into the market here anyway.

Turnipman

billy few mates wrote: »

Why don't you try and keep your 'outrage' to the issues they are actually striking over instead of making up issues in your head so that you can get outraged about them instead..? :rolleyes:

Quite possibly because he's well aware of how trade unions work!

If Ryanair give in on this dispute then before you can say "thank goodness that's been settled, now I can book my winter holiday" they'll have slapped in their next claim .............. and so on, until they have brought Ryanair management to heel and the company is indistinguishable from all of the other union-run airlines.

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Why don't you try and keep your 'outrage' to the issues they are actually striking over instead of making up issues in your head so that you can get outraged about them instead..? :rolleyes:

Aer Lingus are taking delivery of A32XNeo planes. First 737Max for Ryanair arrives early next year. Both are viewed as incremental improvements of the existing airframe. If IALPA were willing to make an issue out of this for Aer Lingus then they'll make an issue of it for Ryanair and the distances to Turkey and Canaries aren't far off the distances to Quebec. Arguments will be made by those with a monetary motivation to do so.

CoisFharraige

Turnipman wrote: »

billy few mates wrote: »

Why don't you try and keep your 'outrage' to the issues they are actually striking over instead of making up issues in your head so that you can get outraged about them instead..? :rolleyes:

Quite possibly because he's well aware of how trade unions work!

If Ryanair give in on this dispute then before you can say "thank goodness that's been settled, now I can book my winter holiday" they'll have slapped in their next claim .............. and so on, until they have brought Ryanair management to heel and the company is indistinguishable from all of the other union-run airlines.

Why do you connote negativity with a union run airline? We’re in 2018 now, by the way, so throwing strikes from years ago as back up to how unions ruin airlines won’t cut it for me. Aer Lingus seems to have struck a good balance with morale and efficiency, as have Easyjet. What crystal ball tells you that Ryanair will be driven to the ‘union airlines’? If it is, at least the pilots and cabin crew will treated with a bit of bloody respect.

Almost every airline is unionised in Europe today, and some of them are incredibly profitable. I’m not disregarding the history of the unions in this country, but this industry is unreocgnisable from 2 decades ago, so why compare the two? Nobody knows what’s going to happen with this.

rivegauche

The unions have made it prohibitively expensive for most Consumers to fly between cities in Germany. Lufthansa are VC's bitch.
Ryanairs recent introduction of cut price flights in to Germany, I saw some flights between German cities advertised for 8.50 yesterday on Ryanair, are the reason why Unions around Europe are advising Ryanair on how to conduct their industrial action.
This isn't a conspiracy theory. Ryanair are threatening the livelyhoods of VC members and well paid Ryanair pilots will earn good salaries in the process.
The notion of a Union movement is absurd. As an employee of one company you are in competition with the employee of another company. When Unions reach an unofficial understanding they may preserve the employment of their current members but future employees of that company don't get promoted in to new positions because the new positions don't come in to being.
If Irish Airlines fall under Union control then Ireland will never be a world leader in this Industry where there are actually few barriers to entry.
As it is it looks like within Europe Aer Lingus is going to shrink in to a smaller company content to operate Airbus 320s and even A220 on flights only originating from Ireland rather than taking the next leap to locations which don't originate in Ireland. You can thank the high costs of the Unions and the fact that Aer Lingus couldn't grow large enough to exist as an independent entity on Union control and Government kowtowing to the Union.

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

Aer Lingus are taking delivery of A32XNeo planes. First 737Max for Ryanair arrives early next year. Both are viewed as incremental improvements of the existing airframe. If IALPA were willing to make an issue out of this for Aer Lingus then they'll make an issue of it for Ryanair and the distances to Turkey and Canaries aren't far off the distances to Quebec. Arguments will be made by those with a monetary motivation to do so.

You're willfully misrepresenting the difference between sh and lh Pilots and the different structures these (essentially) sh aircraft on lh and sh ops will bring.

rivegauche

john boye wrote: »

You're willfully misrepresenting the difference between sh and lh Pilots and the different structures these (essentially) sh aircraft on lh and sh ops will bring.

Am I really? Pilots have means for their long haul work being recognized. Not that it matters much as it appears the proper planes needed for Long Haul and approved destinations are within the gift of IAG and IAG would prefer to give them to others. Who would I blame for Aer Lingus being in a position of not being able to determine their own fate...Unions.

Turnipman

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Why do you connote negativity with a union run airline?

Why not?

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

Am I really? Pilots have means for their long haul work being recognized. Not that it matters much as it appears the proper planes needed for Long Haul and approved destinations are within the gift of IAG and IAG would prefer to give them to others. Who would I blame for Aer Lingus being in a position of not being able to determine their own fate...Unions.

And the other IAG airlines aren't unionised are they?

rivegauche

Yes, and they got to grow bigger before the Unions put them in a strait jacket and LEVEL exists because of the constraints of the Unions and that is the brand that Aer Lingus will probably lose the nice shiney new airframes to.
It's like...It's like you are trying to prove my points for me.

Tenger

Turnipman wrote: »

Why not?

I would agree that unions can have a negative impact on a company. Alitalia is a case in point.
Im of the opinion that unions are a neccessary evil for employees. They give a strong united voice to workers, however the workers must retain control.
A union can try to work to its own ends rather than those of the workers.
I experienced this back in the early 2000s. I was forced to join SIPTU as part of my contract, no other unions were represented in that airline.

Unions are good when they protect workers from breaches of contract/conditions, but bad when they try to dictate investment/ operations of the company.
Its a balancing act.

Turnipman

I see Ryanair have looked for help.

"Ryanair suggests Kieran Mulvey as a mediator in talks to end pilots' strike"