Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

Yes, and they got to grow bigger before the Unions put them in a strait jacket and LEVEL exists because of the constraints of the Unions and that is the brand that Aer Lingus will probably lose the nice shiney new airframes to.
It's like...It's like you are trying to prove my points for me.

Aer Lingus has received 5 wb frames since IAG took over and has 8 (at least) LRs on the way. I think they're doing OK.

Christ I don't even support unions but here I am defending them in the face of your codswallop.

Comhrá

Turnipman wrote: »

I see Ryanair have looked for help.

"Ryanair suggests Kieran Mulvey as a mediator in talks to end pilots' strike"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/top-mediator-kieran-mulvey-called-in-by-ryanair-in-bid-to-resolve-pilots-strikes-37181631.html

PCros

Turnipman wrote: »

I see Ryanair have looked for help.

"Ryanair suggests Kieran Mulvey as a mediator in talks to end pilots' strike"

This was always on the cards - hopefully a positive outcome for both sides.

Turnipman

PCros wrote: »

This was always on the cards - hopefully a positive outcome for both sides.

And for Mulvey!

The last time that that my organisation availed of his mediation services, his fee was stratospheric! But no-one really minded because the taxpayer was paying!

PCros

Turnipman wrote: »

The last time that that my organisation availed of his mediation services, his fee was stratospheric! But no-one really minded because the taxpayer was paying!

But if Ryanair suggested him surely they pick up the tab no?

Irish Steve

ENOUGH I have just cleaned up a number of increasingly incredible and totally off topic posts.

This thread is about Ryanair Industrial relations, NOT the way in which IAG may or may not be managing what happens with Aer Lingus. Any more posts in that direction will result in infractions or bans.

rivegauche

Ryanair has no plans to reduce the number of planes in Germany as a result of strike action there.
http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-flugzeuge-deutschland/46179

facehugger99

Hopefully Ryanair will continue to stand up to the Unions.

When Unions win, the customers always lose.

Turnipman

PCros wrote: »

But if Ryanair suggested him surely they pick up the tab no?

Presumably - although as Forsa was pleading for third party mediation, maybe MOL will try to get them to pay half!

Bob24

PCros wrote: »

But if Ryanair suggested him surely they pick up the tab no?

Wouldn’t it make it harder to call him impartial?

PCros

Bob24 wrote: »

Wouldn’t it make it harder to call him impartial?

Who? Evan Cullen or Kieran Mulvey

billy few mates

Turnipman wrote: »

Presumably - although as Forsa was pleading for third party mediation, maybe MOL will try to get them to pay half!

Only fair...

Tenger

PCros wrote: »

This was always on the cards - hopefully a positive outcome for both sides.

Hopefully it’s also a positive outcome for the traveling public.
I’ve thought for a long time that if Ryanair adopted the employee loyalty and reward part of the SouthWest operating model they would steamroller most airlines in Europe (more so than they are doing already)

CoisFharraige

Tenger wrote: »

Hopefully it’s also a positive outcome for the traveling public.
I’ve thought for a long time that if Ryanair adopted the employee loyalty and reward part of the SouthWest operating model they would steamroller most airlines in Europe (more so than they are doing already)

100%. If they wanted to they could have pilots transferring from every kind of outfit to them and everyone being very satisfied working with them. I just wish they'd realise this and drop the whole macho-facade! It could be an example to businesses, entrepreneurs etc about how to run a business and keep people happy whilst making serious profits.

Comhrá

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0803/982867-norwegian-air-looking-to-recruit-40-pilots-in-ireland/

Norwegian Air has launched a recruitment drive in Ireland for pilots who hold a Boeing 737 operational certificate.

The airline is looking to recruit 40 pilots, both Captains and First Officers, which it says is to support continued expansion of its operations.

That would see the airline almost double the current number of flight crew operating from the Dublin base.

The recruitment drive follows the announcement of the airline’s new expanded 2019 summer schedule with 40 weekly transatlantic departures from March next to the USA and Canada from Ireland.

Norwegian also serves the European cities of Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen and Helsinki direct from the Irish capital.

"Norwegian offers pilots a rewarding career with a diverse route network which spans both long haul and short haul destinations flying the latest Boeing 737 MAX aircraft," Helga Bollmann Leknes, Chief Human Resources Officer at Norwegian said.

"We look forward to welcoming qualified pilots who want to work for an airline that recognises the vital contribution that they make to our business during this continued phase of expansion in Ireland.

CoisFharraige

Just what FR need. They could see themselves very out of pocket with captain numbers when they transfer/fire the 100 pilots in Dublin and then more captains leave for this.

billy few mates

At this stage it looks like the only one going to Poland will be O'Leary...

Bob24

Ryanair will of course go through this, but it looks like it will be much harder than they envisioned just a few days/weeks ago.

The fact that in Ireland they are already making concessions on their previous conditions for the discussion to happen (no neutral ground, no talks while further strike days are pending, no third party involvement) will show pilots in all countries that while the material impact of the strike hasn’t been huge to date, something is happening - and it will encourage them to keep going.

CoisFharraige

Bob24 wrote: »

Ryanair will of course go through this, but it looks like it will be much harder than they envisioned just a few days/weeks ago.

The fact that in Ireland they are already making concessions on their previous conditions for the discussion to happen (no neutral ground, no talks while further strike days are pending, no third party involvement) will show pilots in all countries that while the material impact of the strike hasn’t been huge to date, something is happening - and it will encourage them to keep going.

I agree. No doubt there's serious momentum now with all the unions.

milhous

Probably the unknown, but we have a city break booked for mid sept. The flights cost very little but the hotel we booked is expensive and non refundable. Could the strikes go on that long. Should we hedge our bets and just try and book flights else where?

We are overdue a holiday and I do not want to miss these two nights.. they are keeping me going!

Bob24

Pilots have accepted the mediation offer: https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0803/982826-ryanair-pilots/

And a bit over 100 Belgian flights cancelled on the 10th.

trellheim

So why did Ryanair decide to start dealing with unions when they knew it was exactly this that would happen ?

NH2013

trellheim wrote: »

So why did Ryanair decide to start dealing with unions when they knew it was exactly this that would happen ?

Well because it could have happened regardless, unions can organise strike actions even if they're not recognised by the employers, provided all the legal boxes are ticked.

Case in point the strike planned by IALPA last December, prior to any recognition by Ryanair.

Failing to acknowledge the unions would just mean a strike with no negociations surrounding it.

IngazZagni

It should be noted that there is still no union recognition agreement in place in Ireland and I believe that's the case in all but 2 countries.

It was Ryanairs choice to go down this path as they rejected a proposal for a European wide internal representative system.

I had to laugh at Ryanairs latest press release regarding third party intervention which is saying they have suggested it. Eh no it was the pilots and their union which has been requesting this for weeks. Ryanair is on record saying it's not necessary but clearly they were forced to change their tune.

Bob24

IngazZagni wrote: »

It was Ryanairs choice to go down this path as they rejected a proposal for a European wide internal representative system.

This is a very relevant reminder indeed. A few months ago pilots were organising as a European council and were asking for recognition by the company as a representative entity to negotiate with (i.e. no unions involved), and this was flat out rejected by Ryanair which instead chose the national unions route.

I'd say the European network of pilots which was established then is still active though and explains the upcoming synchronised strikes (unless a small group of Aer Lingus pilots managed to convince unions and Ryanair pilots across Europe to strike on the same day as Ryanair mentioned last week, but I find my explanation more convincing :-)).

rivegauche

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/markets/ryanair-and-paddy-power-betfair-buy-back-more-shares-1.3587873

I don't think the Strikers understand how much they are helping Ryanair or rather the main shareholders with their share buyback at present.
Buying €4.25 million of shares for under €13 a share is some achievement and they are certainly returning value to the shareholders.
They're only around halfway through the activity. Keep threatening strikes; see page 122 of https://investor.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ryanair-FY-2018-Annual-Report.pdf
The main shareholders are actually increasing their ownership of Ryanair without having to do anything. M O'L is one of them owning over 4%.
Some here think these guys are incentivised to divest themselves of Ryanair shares, they're not.

rivegauche

Bob24 wrote: »

This is a very relevant reminder indeed. A few months ago pilots were organising as a European council and were asking for recognition by the company as a representative entity to negotiate with (i.e. no unions involved), and this was flat out rejected by Ryanair which instead chose the national unions route.

I'd say the European network of pilots which was established then is still active though and explains the upcoming synchronised strikes (unless a small group of Aer Lingus pilots managed to convince unions and Ryanair pilots across Europe to strike on the same day as Ryanair mentioned last week, but I find my explanation more convincing :-)).

Can you ever do some critical analysis of what you actually want. Germany is going to be a bigger market than Ireland. The German faction in a pan-european workers council will not vote for any development which benefits Irish pilots at their expense. For example, Ryanair and Irish pilots want to have planes based at Dublin. German faction of workers council wants German jobs for German pilots at German pay. German workers council will vote for labour agreements which don't allow Irish based planes to fly in and out of Germany. It'll be a bit like the EU with German, French and Spanish dominance at the expense of smaller state. EU voting rules are constructed to somewhat limit that but France and Germany are still dominant.
Do you think your IALPA will figure out in the same decade that they've been taken for a ride by their comrades in arms?
If IALPA want all the plum routes and fast-track promotions then they should nestle in under Ryanair head office wing right now at the start.

rivegauche

In brief: VC are a slicker organisation than IALPA. IALPA should be more frightened of them than Ryanair. Your enemy's enemy is not your friend.

I read a German piece in DLF on labour recognition and the "expert" when talking about labour recognition said costs will rise but not so much and people should expect to pay maybe 30 euro per ticket than now. How does Ryanair continue to exist and employ staff with those sort increases in labour costs.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

Can you ever do some critical analysis of what you actually want. Germany is going to be a bigger market than Ireland. The German faction in a pan-european workers council will not vote for any development which benefits Irish pilots at their expense. For example, Ryanair and Irish pilots want to have planes based at Dublin. German faction of workers council wants German jobs for German pilots at German pay. German workers council will vote for labour agreements which don't allow Irish based planes to fly in and out of Germany. It'll be a bit like the EU with German, French and Spanish dominance at the expense of smaller state. EU voting rules are constructed to somewhat limit that but France and Germany are still dominant.
Do you think your IALPA will figure out in the same decade that they've been taken for a ride by their comrades in arms?
If IALPA want all the plum routes and fast-track promotions then they should nestle in under Ryanair head office wing right now at the start.

I don't personally want anything related to this dispute as I have no skin in the game as an employee or a shareholder, and the IALPA is not my IALPA as I have no relashionship with it whatsoever (apologies for not fitting in one of the manichaean categories of your narative).

I'm just stating that IngazZagni is right in reminding all of us that dealing with national unions was Ryanair's choice rather than dealing directly with their pilots at a European level (which is what pilots were originally asking for).

rivegauche

Pension systems for employees in Germany and Ireland are radically different; do you expect the VC faction to fight for decent pension terms for Irish full time employees when doing so is at the expense of valuable negotiating time for topics important to them and limited budget from their employer across the entire company. Healthcare likewise; Completely different systems. Rules on equity ownership by employees likewise.
Pension and healthcare get taken care of by law in Germany and that is why those payslips for German captains looked so big. Do you think the Germans or the French will argue for better treatment of Irish pilots on those point when it steals away tens or hundreds of millions away from something important to the Germans or French pilots. I'd ask any IALPA members reading this to ask their shop steward if they know the first thing about German, French or Spanish law and how do they intend to stop the pan-European committee factionalising.