Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

Bob24

Apparently mediation will start this week: https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/talks-between-ryanair-and-dublin-pilots-to-get-underway-this-week-860515.html

rivegauche

https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/ryanair-piloten-streiken-am-freitag.1939.de.html?drn:news_id=912015

German strike on Friday. A date chosen to maximise impact on families vacationing. So be it. Ryanair can assess the strength of the opposition and react accordingly.

They make the Irish pilots look silly though. This is all about money for the German pilots. Supposedly that is not the case for the Irish pilots.
VC Boss Martin Lochers says „Ryanair hat in den Verhandlungen jedwede Personalkosten-Erhöhung kategorisch ausgeschlossen"
Ryanair estimate their labour costs will increase 100 to 200 million. You can check their latest financial results Q&A session where that is mentioned.
German pilots will be aiming to get the majority of that and will want as many German pilots getting as much as possible so planes which would have been based in other Countries like Ireland will be based in Germany with German crews.

Tenger

The Ryanair industrial relations disputes do raise questions about pan-national negotiations. Different jurisdictions will have different laws regarding employee contracts.

However so far we have seen no indications that Ryanair will allow operational parameters to be affected by union demands. They will not base aircraft in places where they are surplus to requirements, that would make no sense.

And the estimates for additional staff costs do not directly to ‘salary increases’ They relate more to the need to have more staff to cover changing working conditions. And as anyone in the industry will agree more staff does give greater resilience during disruption. Its a form of insurance which airlines are mostly trying to do without these days.

rivegauche

You could have said all the same things about the U.S. aviation industry before it became the closed shop that it is now.

MadYaker

This has really snowballed, reminds me a bit of the Arab Spring! :pac:

Bob24

So the figure is close to 400 flights cancelled on Friday without taking Dutch pilots into account as the status of the strike there is still foggy: https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/travel-headaches-loom-for-holiday-makers-as-strikes-to-ground-400-ryanair-flights-on-friday-37198832.html

Ryanair are going to court in the Netherlands to stop the strike. No idea whether there is a solid legal basis for it, but at least it shows they have decided to go with a very confrontational approach.

rivegauche

250 flights cancelled in Germany.
Congratulations to the useful idiots which have allowed VC to orchestrate a simple money grab from their employer when they would already have the best conditions Europe wide.
VC had generated a bad reputation for themselves by paralysing Lufthansa in recent years. The threat of strikes hung over LH and they just made the travelling public miserable. They now have an excuse to strike in another company to increase wages because Unions in other countries are striking for improved working conditions. The public won't know the reasons for striking are different from one Country to another.
Remember that in Germany employees get their state pension paid which is matched to their salary, not a flat state pension like in Ireland so a German pilot who is on a very good salary could expect to be clearing 40 to 50% of his monthly salary as a pension payment come retirement and his employer is forced to pay his private healthcare 50/50.
Ryanair Pilots might all be in the same boat but some are in the first class cabins.
Irish pilots will be working themselves to the bone to sustain the terms and conditions of German pilots.
A german payslip.maybe selected to suit Ryanair but a German payslip never the less:
https://corporate.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/German-Captain-NEW-1.pdf

rivegauche

Despite comments from people here that you'd be mad to join Ryanair or its contracting companies but they appear to be able to recruit:
https://corporate.ryanair.com/about-us/ryanair-pilots/26-jul-another-19-pilots-join-ryanair-this-week/
https://corporate.ryanair.com/about-us/ryanair-pilots/19-jul-another-30-pilots-join-ryanair-this-week/

more first officers and captains; you'd think they'd know better as Ryanair are obviously the spawn of the Devil.

rivegauche

Status update:
https://www.herald.ie/news/any-disruption-at-ryanair-is-good-for-aer-lingus-boss-37183339.html
'Any disruption at Ryanair is good for Aer Lingus' - boss

IALPA have really helped ensure their other employer keeps the planes in the air and earning good profit.

IAG are able to push for higher ticket prices too as Ryanair are tied up in knots elsewhere.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iag-results/iag-quarterly-profit-rises-air-traffic-strikes-weigh-idUSKBN1KO0NR

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-norwegianair-results/norwegian-air-swings-to-surprise-second-quarter-net-profit-idUKKBN1K2183
In a financial year when Ryanair should have been obliterating Norwegian Air in Europe they are not hemorrhaging as much money as they did previously because Ryanair is distracted by IR problems.

Vereinigung Cockpit are going for a money grab.

Ryanair are reluctant to hire any more pilots as employees but rather only as contractors.
The pilots in Ryanair have elevated to an art form Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face,
Well done, Well done.

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Rivegauche is Kenny Jacobs your real name because you really love the Ryanair PR spin.

rivegauche

you'd use that line for anyone who argues that Irish Pilots' chosen method of Industrial action is damaging to their own interests.
Automaticailly accusing others of "Spin" is spin of itself.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Status update:
https://www.herald.ie/news/any-disruption-at-ryanair-is-good-for-aer-lingus-boss-37183339.html
'Any disruption at Ryanair is good for Aer Lingus' - boss

IALPA have really helped ensure their other employer keeps the planes in the air and earning good profit.

IAG are able to push for higher ticket prices too as Ryanair are tied up in knots elsewhere.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iag-results/iag-quarterly-profit-rises-air-traffic-strikes-weigh-idUSKBN1KO0NR

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-norwegianair-results/norwegian-air-swings-to-surprise-second-quarter-net-profit-idUKKBN1K2183
In a financial year when Ryanair should have been obliterating Norwegian Air in Europe they are not hemorrhaging as much money as they did previously because Ryanair is distracted by IR problems.

Vereinigung Cockpit are going for a money grab.

Ryanair are reluctant to hire any more pilots as employees but rather only as contractors.
The pilots in Ryanair have elevated to an art form Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face,
Well done, Well done.

You seem to be taking this particularly badly...;)

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

You seem to be taking this particularly badly...;)

Have you no empathy for the unfortunate passengers who are suffering this escalation.
Are you not annoyed that the Pilots and Cabin Crew are being manipulated toward advancing the goals of others?
So far I can see Aer Lingus pilots benefiting from this and I can see VC being able to generate the set in train the circumstances which allowed them to go on strike while deflecting blame on to the employer when there was no righteousness behind their Industrial action at all.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

250 flights cancelled in Germany.
Congratulations to the useful idiots which have allowed VC to orchestrate a simple money grab from their employer when they would already have the best conditions Europe wide.
VC had generated a bad reputation for themselves by paralysing Lufthansa in recent years. The threat of strikes hung over LH and they just made the travelling public miserable. They now have an excuse to strike in another company to increase wages because Unions in other countries are striking for improved working conditions. The public won't know the reasons for striking are different from one Country to another.
Remember that in Germany employees get their state pension paid which is matched to their salary, not a flat state pension like in Ireland so a German pilot who is on a very good salary could expect to be clearing 40 to 50% of his monthly salary as a pension payment come retirement and his employer is forced to pay his private healthcare 50/50.
Ryanair Pilots might all be in the same boat but some are in the first class cabins.
Irish pilots will be working themselves to the bone to sustain the terms and conditions of German pilots.
A german payslip.maybe selected to suit Ryanair but a German payslip never the less:
https://corporate.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/German-Captain-NEW-1.pdf

That's quite a low basic, I would have thought it would have been a lot more than that. I take it their pension is based on their basic rather than the entire package...?
I'm also guessing Ryanair have chosen one of the highest totals to publicise, I'd be more interested if they also published the lowest one and the average monthly figure. Publishing an outlier in isolation like this is absolutely meaningless and proves nothing.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Can you ever do some critical analysis of what you actually want. Germany is going to be a bigger market than Ireland. The German faction in a pan-european workers council will not vote for any development which benefits Irish pilots at their expense. For example, Ryanair and Irish pilots want to have planes based at Dublin. German faction of workers council wants German jobs for German pilots at German pay. German workers council will vote for labour agreements which don't allow Irish based planes to fly in and out of Germany. It'll be a bit like the EU with German, French and Spanish dominance at the expense of smaller state. EU voting rules are constructed to somewhat limit that but France and Germany are still dominant.
Do you think your IALPA will figure out in the same decade that they've been taken for a ride by their comrades in arms?
If IALPA want all the plum routes and fast-track promotions then they should nestle in under Ryanair head office wing right now at the start.

rivegauche wrote: »

In brief: VC are a slicker organisation than IALPA. IALPA should be more frightened of them than Ryanair. Your enemy's enemy is not your friend.

I read a German piece in DLF on labour recognition and the "expert" when talking about labour recognition said costs will rise but not so much and people should expect to pay maybe 30 euro per ticket than now. How does Ryanair continue to exist and employ staff with those sort increases in labour costs.

Last week you were suggesting the Irish pilots were being greedy, now you're suggesting they're not being greedy enough...?
Do you actually read any of this stuff you post...? :rolleyes:

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Last week you were suggesting the Irish pilots were being greedy, now you're suggesting they're not being greedy enough...?
Do you actually read any of this stuff you post...? :rolleyes:

Where was greed referenced in either of those two posts you referenced?

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Where was greed referenced in either of those two posts you referenced?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107424391&postcount=18

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107424391&postcount=18

selfishness and greed are two separate character flaws.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

selfishness and greed are two separate character flaws.

Good to know, thanks.

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rivegauche wrote:

you'd use that line for anyone who argues that Irish Pilots' chosen method of Industrial action is damaging to their own interests.

Irish pilots' chosen method of industrial action is the only method available to them!
Pilots on the Council been banging their heads off a brick wall since last September as Ryanair is unwilling to bring in any significant improvements for staff.

Managements sheer pig headedness has led to these European wide strikes. They could have solved these issues last year if they really cared.

rivegauche

You'll be banging your head off the wall even more when the limited budget available for labour each year is soaked up by German VC "Colleagues" and nothing is left for Irish staff.
Irish Union should have got what they needed before VC had an excuse to become militant. They aren't just going to take a slice, they'll take the entire cake.

CoisFharraige

rivegauche wrote: »

You'll be banging your head off the wall even more when the limited budget available for labour each year is soaked up by German VC "Colleagues" and nothing is left for Irish staff.
Irish Union should have got what they needed before VC had an excuse to become militant. They aren't just going to take a slice, they'll take the entire cake.

Is that you Micky?

rivegauche

Which member of Ryanair staff am I supposed to be? Chief Executive Officer, HR Director, CFO.

billy few mates

I have to ask why Ryanair ever decided to recognise unions if their only intention was to try and face them down...?
They didn't have to go this way, they could have stuck with the ERC where they always had the final say, now they're dealing with professional union representatives who aren't going to be as easily cowed and they're finding themselves hopelessly out of their depth when it comes to dealing with them.
They certainly seem Ill prepared for the resolve the pilots have shown, the threats only seemed to harden that resolve.
Those Aer Lingus pilots they keep referring to were senior members of the union long before Ryanair ever agreed to recognise them, did they honestly believe they'd be able to dictate to the union who they can and can't have on their executive committee...?
Pilot associations all over the world are made up of pilots from many different companies, they must have known this. If it was going to be such a problem they should never have agreed to have anything to do with them but once they did a whole new set of rules of engagement apply and this is what they seem to have great difficulty accepting...

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Which member of Ryanair staff am I supposed to be? Chief Executive Officer, HR Director, CFO.

Clearly none of them...

billy few mates

Hopefully tomorrow's set of strikes will be the end of it, the mediation was supposed to start this week. it might not take that much to come to an agreement.

Bob24

billy few mates wrote: »

I have to ask why Ryanair ever decided to recognise unions if their only intention was to try and face them down...?
They didn't have to go this way, they could have stuck with the ERC where they always had the final say, now they're dealing with professional union representatives who aren't going to be as easily cowed and they're finding themselves hopelessly out of their depth when it comes to dealing with them.
They certainly seem Ill prepared for the resolve the pilots have shown, the threats only seemed to harden that resolve.
Those Aer Lingus pilots they keep referring to were senior members of the union long before Ryanair ever agreed to recognise them, did they honestly believe they'd be able to dictate to the union who they can and can't have on their executive committee...?
Pilot associations all over the world are made up of pilots from many different companies, they must have known this. If it was going to be such a problem they should never have agreed to have anything to do with them but once they did a whole new set of rules of engagement apply and this is what they seem to have great difficulty accepting...

IMO the main reason was to ensure talks would remain at a national level (to keep going with their tried and tested divide and conquer strategy) at a time when their staff was in the process of regrouping at a European level (with a possible fear for the company that it would give staff more leverage during talks).

It might be backfiring now, but they were basically cornered and had to chose between that solution or accepting a transnational commitee outside of their control which would effectively have became some sort of massive union with a different name.

So in short: they were cornered in a potentially explosive situation after years of ignoring staff concerns and kicking the can down the road, and recognised unions to buy time and and fragment their “opponent” (I am using quotation marks here, but sometimes it does really feel like they see their employees as an opponent).

billy few mates

Is there anything to stop them deciding to row back on the decision to recognise unions and revert to the original arrangement..?
They'd probably have more control when dealing with unrest like this as opposed to trying to combat legal union strike action...?

NH2013

billy few mates wrote: »

Is there anything to stop them deciding to row back on the decision to recognise unions and revert to the original arrangement..?
They'd probably have more control when dealing with unrest like this as opposed to trying to combat legal union strike action...?

They could if they wanted, but the unions would still be able to call strikes, unions don't need to be recognised by the employer in order for their members to go on strike, they only need to tick the legal boxes to going on strike which differ from country to country.

In effect, Ryanair could say tonight they no longer recognise unions, but all that would mean would be that they won't negociate with them, not that their staff won't/can't go on strike.

rivegauche

https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401484763/b737-captain-ryanair-mobile-contractor/

5 year contract will attract the Mercenary but not Militant Pilot that Ryanair seeks.
With enough of them they continue to recognise Unions but shrink Union influence. If Unions are under under 20% of workforce per Country then they can strike as much as they want and Ryanair will work around them.