Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

You don't understand the difference between nightstopping and having your aircraft based at an airport.

There isn't anything for me to misunderstand as your argument is incoherent and based on not understand the basic concept. Your examples are useless chaff that show nothing except your lack of knowledge of the industry.

To explain what actually happens - Lufthansa night stop a German based aircraft in Dublin to operate a service they could not do with a German based aircraft otherwise. They pay for the staff to do so including hotel costs. They are not doing this to avoid having the aircraft based in Germany, because it is based in Germany. Ryanairs approach to operating early flights is to do so only from a base. They do not night stop.

You also don't seem to realise that advertising for pilots does not mean you'll get any - a rather simple thing there.

OK, there is no doubt now; You understood my meaning but don't want to acknowledge it.
If Ryanair have maintenance facilities and bases in Poland or Dublin and Lufthansa don't they can do exactly what Lufthansa is doing with the early morning flight except better and at lower cost although at higher cost than using their existing model which the Unions are trying to prevent them from operating but still lower than the labour costs that Vereinigung Cockpit wish to impose upon them. Those early morning flights flying in to Germany will not be empty. The will not be empty positioning flights.

I understand why you wish to challenge my competency. You wish to undermine the legitimacy of my arguments.

Some pilots at other airlines are looking to move away from other carriers to Ryanair for many reasons including.
1) Better pay. They do now pay significantly better than many airlines.
2) Forced earlier retirement elsewhere; A captain years away from 65 may not be willing to retire just because his airline tells him to retire.
3) Better work/life balance; they get to be home most nights and for the most part work a fairly certain shift roster
4) Fast track career; with the size of the fleet the opportunities for a pilot who otherwise may be working in a small airline in a backwater.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

OK, there is no doubt now; You understood my meaning but don't want to acknowledge it.
If Ryanair have maintenance facilities and bases in Poland or Dublin and Lufthansa don't they can do exactly what Lufthansa is doing with the early morning flight except better and at lower cost although at higher cost than using their existing model which the Unions are trying to prevent them from operating but still lower than the labour costs that Vereinigung Cockpit wish to impose upon them. Those early morning flights flying in to Germany will not be empty. The will not be empty positioning flights.

I understand why you wish to challenge my competency. You wish to undermine the legitimacy of my arguments.

Some pilots at other airlines are looking to move away from other carriers to Ryanair for many reasons including.
1) Better pay. They do now pay significantly better than many airlines.
2) Forced earlier retirement elsewhere; A captain years away from 65 may not be willing to retire just because his airline tells him to retire.
3) Better work/life balance; they get to be home most nights and for the most part work a fairly certain shift roster
4) Fast track career; with the size of the fleet the opportunities for a pilot who otherwise may be working in a small airline in a backwater.

I understood what you're trying to get at. You are fundamentally wrong in what you're trying to claim, because you do not understand basic concepts here; so there is no way to try manipulate what you're claiming in to something that makes sense.

If Ryanair operate all flights from Germany on W patterns they will be throwing money away. There is a reason they don't do it now.

You have no competency to undermine.

Your arguments are, and always have been, nonsensical.

Every post you make just makes it more and more clear you don't have any knowledge of the industry. You are driving this thread off-topic in a mess of circular arguments and fantasyland HR practices. Please stop.

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

I understood what you're trying to get at. You are fundamentally wrong in what you're trying to claim, because you do not understand basic concepts here; so there is no way to try manipulate what you're claiming in to something that makes sense.

If Ryanair operate all flights from Germany on W patterns they will be throwing money away. There is a reason they don't do it now.

You have no competency to undermine.

Your arguments are, and always have been, nonsensical.

You are driving this thread off-topic in a mess of circular arguments and fantasyland HR practices.

Source!
You are conducting an OJ Simpson Defence strategy of contest and challenge everything where if you can't prove me wrong will at least leave the jury to question it.
Ryanair can't drive Lufthansa and other incumbents out of business with a Lufthansa cost base and even if they did the legacy of that would leave them unable to profit on it at a later stage. Flag of Convenience(Polish or Luxembourgish or whatever) is the way to go.

The only reason why Ryanair aren't going on record saying that those moved planes to Poland are going to serve existing route network is because it wouldn't serve them well in an Irish Labour Court at a later date.

beardybrewer

Sorry for barging in lads but I have a quick question. My family are meant to fly next Friday (aug 17th) to London. My wife thinks they're probably going to strike again next Friday and we should be worried. Does anyone have any idea if they plan to keep striking each Friday? Should we be worried?

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Source!
You are conducting an OJ Simpson Defence strategy of contest and challenge everything where if you can't prove me wrong will at least leave the jury to question it.
Ryanair can't drive Lufthansa and other incumbents out of business with a Lufthansa cost base and even if they did the legacy of that would leave them unable to profit on it at a later stage. Flag of Convenience(Polish or Luxembourgish or whatever) is the way to go.

The only reason why Ryanair aren't going on record saying that those moved planes to Poland are going to serve existing route network is because it wouldn't serve them well in an Irish Labour Court at a later date.

The first part of this post is incoherent.

Ryanair are never going to drive Lufthansa out of business. Even if they could, being unable to operate early flights from Germany or late flights to due to running around Europe looking for the loosest employment laws of the day would ensure it never happened. Again, your lack of knowledge of the industry comes through

The "moved planes" are the normal capacity pull down for winter, nothing more. It's a PR statement that you've actually fallen for

rivegauche

Ryanair operated W pattern in France as they didn't want to base planes there. They'll be forced to use it elsewhere.
Interesting to see some other forums where pilots are talking about the strike and hoping that the coordinated attack on Ryanair by Unions will "undoubtedly benefit all European pilots". That is not what a capitalistic market is about and if it is to the benefit of Pilots then who do you think loses out? I'll answer that for you; Consumers who earn a fraction of what Pilots earn.

billy few mates

Would it be easier if we just agreed with him...?
It's bad enough watching him arguing with himself without having to see other people being sucked in. He's clearly on a mission...

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair operated W pattern in France as they didn't want to base planes there. They'll be forced to use it elsewhere.

And their market share in France is tiny as a result.

Your fantasyland proposals would damage the airline incalculably.

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

And their market share in France is tiny as a result.

Your fantasyland proposals would damage the airline incalculably.

Short term damage. retrench, regroup, rethink.
Long term damage would be caused by an entrenched group of employees who wish ill upon their employer and wish to damage their employer to the benefit of the trade union members in the competitor companies.
When they're done they'll just take their thousands of hours of experience and experience earned with access to Flight Sims in Ryanair bases and work somewhere else while the consumer pays Lufthansa type ticket prices.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Short term damage. retrench, regroup, rethink.

Realise you've made a stupid decision.

rivegauche

Pivot away from Union recognition now that the European trade union movement have made it clear that they want to destroy your business.
When appeasement of a mendacious foe is obviously not working then you need to eliminate them.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Pivot away from Union recognition now that the European trade union movement have made it clear that they want to destroy your business.
When appeasement of a mendacious foe is obviously not working then you need to eliminate them.

You're gone incoherent again. This isn't Michael O'Leary's suggestions box.

rivegauche

Does he need a suggestion box? He is already pivoting away with movement of planes to a base where they don't have labour issues in Eastern Europe.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Does he need a suggestion box? He is already pivoting away with movement of planes to a base where they don't have labour issues in Eastern Europe.

You are basing that on one fact-free PR statement, and nothing else.

The reduction in based craft in Dublin in winter has been done every year due to seasonal traffic. That is all they re-announced.

If you didn't think this was MOL's postbox that post was contextless and inane.

CoisFharraige

rivegauche wrote: »

Short term damage. retrench, regroup, rethink.
Long term damage would be caused by an entrenched group of employees who wish ill upon their employer and wish to damage their employer to the benefit of the trade union members in the competitor companies.
When they're done they'll just take their thousands of hours of experience and experience earned with access to Flight Sims in Ryanair bases and work somewhere else while the consumer pays Lufthansa type ticket prices.

Christ of Almighty. Can you please just leave and stop clogging up the thread with your ****e. I don't understand how you don't see the employee's side on this - they've been treated like absolute crap, and you can't understand why pilots would want to wish ill upon their employer? Come on. The unions are the unions, but if the pilots didn't want to strike like this, they wouldn't. You're presuming in your posts up to now that the unions are just there to kill Ryanair, and thus that the pilots have no idea what they're doing and are just being pushed to strike by the unions, when they are the ones on the inside dealing with this everyday. If pilots didn't want to strike and stand up to the crap they face as professionals who want to enjoy the job they do, they wouldn't be striking in every country in which Ryanair is based!

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair operated W pattern in France as they didn't want to base planes there.

Which has a lot to do with then being found guilty by a French court of illegal employment practices.

The same pressure is mounting in many other countries across Europe and as other posters have said they will have to either change their employment practices or leave even more countries in the short to medium term. Will be getting hard to operate those (already suboptimal) W patterns if they have to leave even more major countries.

rivegauche

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Christ of Almighty. Can you please just leave and stop clogging up the thread with your ****e. I don't understand how you don't see the employee's side on this - they've been treated like absolute crap, and you can't understand why pilots would want to wish ill upon their employer? Come on. The unions are the unions, but if the pilots didn't want to strike like this, they wouldn't. You're presuming in your posts up to now that the unions are just there to kill Ryanair, and thus that the pilots have no idea what they're doing and are just being pushed to strike by the unions, when they are the ones on the inside dealing with this everyday. If pilots didn't want to strike and stand up to the crap they face as professionals who want to enjoy the job they do, they wouldn't be striking in every country in which Ryanair is based!

The Unions are the enemy of the Consumer. As I have no vested interest in Ryanair or the Unions my sympathies lie with the Consumer who will suffer higher travel costs and restricted travel options which will be the direct result of the introduction of Union restrictive practices.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

The Unions are the enemy of the Consumer. As I have no vested interest in Ryanair or the Unions my sympathies lie with the Consumer who will suffer higher travel costs and restricted travel options which will be the direct result of the introduction of Union restrictive practices.

If you've no interest in Ryanair, stop posting on the thread and look for a more appropriate forum for your generalised grievances with Unions.

rivegauche

I have an interest in the effect Unions play on Consumer's travel options when using Ryanair and therefore I have as much right as anyone to post here.
As previously mentioned I suffered knock on effects from previous strike actions in Ryanair and will be travelling with Ryanair for at least three round trips in coming months.
The Unions would like Customers to not book with Ryanair so that Ryanair are more willing to submit to the Unions' demands.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

The Unions are the enemy of the Consumer. As I have no vested interest in Ryanair or the Unions my sympathies lie with the Consumer who will suffer higher travel costs and restricted travel options which will be the direct result of the introduction of Union restrictive practices.

This is a fairly short sighted view of the situation.

Basically a union defends a group of workers’ interest and yes better working conditions can of course increase prices for consumers.

But it is a matter of balance: consumers can be the enemies of workers as much as workers can be the enemies of consumers. And the fun part is that most of us are both workers and consumers - so strongly weighting on one side of the balance as you do is just harming society.

Going back to Ryanair, what we have is an employer whose employees think they are not treated with respect and which has been taking a bit too much liberty with employment laws and ethics (and is already the target of various national and European institutions for doing so). The arrival of unions is a consequence of this behaviour, and while most posters on this thread have expressed an agreement that unions are not always positive, it is missing a few tricks to see unions as being the problem here - they are just a consequence of the problem. Seeing them as always being negative and as being the source of Ryanair's issues is pure dogmatism - issues with poor industrial relations at Ryanair existed way before unions entered the picture.

Brendan Bendar

Good post Bob, well balanced.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

The Unions are the enemy of the Consumer. As I have no vested interest in Ryanair or the Unions my sympathies lie with the Consumer who will suffer higher travel costs and restricted travel options which will be the direct result of the introduction of Union restrictive practices.

Totally agree...

CoisFharraige

rivegauche wrote: »

I suffered knock on effects from previous strike actions in Ryanair and will be travelling with Ryanair for at least three round trips in coming months.

Ah, so there's the source of your anger. Was great talking to you.

billy few mates

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Ah, so there's the source of your anger. Was great talking to you.

I thought it was because he had to take the bus from rural Ireland to London because he couldn't afford the airfare...

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107638539&postcount=485

Mind you that was way back in the thread when he used to find the idea of a seniority system "disgusting" until he had it explained to him, he's gone off on multiple tangents since then...:rolleyes:

rivegauche

You are not keeping pace with the thread which might explain why your efforts to be humourously sarcastic are falling so far wide of the mark. On page 2 of the thread the topic of discussion was the small coterie of Irish pilots who wanted to gain for themselves preferential access to the best routes, bases and time off at the expense of their Irish based Colleagues. Today, Vereinigung Cockpit enter the fray and they're there for a simple money grab and would like nothing better than to drive Ryanair out of Germany as Ryanair threaten the charmed life of VC pilots in legacy German airlines. As an anglophone you haven't witnessed the constant war of attrition waged by VC on the German Airlines which came to a conclusion last year with the capitulation of Lufthansa. Labour policy in Lufthansa is now driven by VC and German consumers pay for it through air fares that to the eyes of those in the British Isles seem extraordinarily high.

rivegauche

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Ah, so there's the source of your anger. Was great talking to you.

do you think approximately 45000 Germans are not angry that the default industrial negotiation strategy of VC is a strike.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

You are not keeping pace with the thread which might explain why your efforts to be humourously sarcastic are falling so far wide of the mark. On page 2 of the thread the topic of discussion was the small coterie of Irish pilots who wanted to gain for themselves preferential access to the best routes, bases and time off at the expense of their Irish based Colleagues. Today, Vereinigung Cockpit enter the fray and they're there for a simple money grab and would like nothing better than to drive Ryanair out of Germany as Ryanair threaten the charmed life of VC pilots in legacy German airlines. As an anglophone you haven't witnessed the constant war of attrition waged by VC on the German Airlines which came to a conclusion last year with the capitulation of Lufthansa. Labour policy in Lufthansa is now driven by VC and German consumers pay for it through air fares that to the eyes of those in the British Isles seem extraordinarily high.

I couldn't agree more...

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

do you think approximately 45000 Germans are not angry that the default industrial negotiation strategy of VC is a strike.

Yes, I do not think that approximately 45000 Germans are not angry about this.

L1011

Posts are getting childish now.


Rivegauche - you have been told not to make generic union-bashing posts. That is now a specific warning. There are other forums for you to use here if you have issues with the idea of unions - Humanities, Politics etc. This thread is for Ryanair specific IR issues only, not your rants or thoughts on unions or other airlines

CoisFharraige

Hallelujah