Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

Norwegian.

Have you looked at Norwegian's financials recently? I wouldn't want to be taking out a PCP as a Norwegian employee much less a mortgage.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Have you looked at Norwegian's financials recently? I wouldn't want to be taking out a PCP as a Norwegian employee much less a mortgage.

Will be bought by IAG, that's pretty much a given

Hand qualified pilots on a plate to the hometown rival, cut schedules and reduce overall market share. Really sensible decision that'd be

rivegauche

You are dragging this off topic but if and it is a big "IF" IAG buy it with only a 5% share-holding as of now they will be buying it to eviscerate it and bolster their other brands which means that the Norwegian network is going to be destroyed and the routes that remain may only be some long-haul and short-haul with Norwegian having practically no short-haul out of Dublin meaning that a job with them is no good to a 737 pilot who wants to be home most nights.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair are involved in anything but idealogical nonsense. They are the archetypal cold, hard money making machine that will endure quarter after quarter of pain to get to the business operating model that they want to be.

I don’t think the OP had Ryanair in mind when he/she mentioned ideological nonsense. Just saying ...

rivegauche

Bob24 wrote: »

I don’t think the OP had Ryanair in mind when he/she mentioned ideological nonsense. Just saying ...

Well it can't possibly be referring to me because I refer to observed experience.

LuckyLloyd

rivegauche wrote: »

Well it can't possibly be referring to me because I refer to observed experience.

Your "observed experience" doesn't seem to be in the aviation industry; and doesn't seem to take any account of the current situation and its context.

billy few mates

None of these pilots will be in the slightest bit worried about losing their jobs over this, they’re highly trained highly sought after professionals, losing a job with Ryanair simply isn’t a threat, it’s not going to happen, there’s more chance of MOL losing his job than any of his pilots.
Even if they did decide to get rid any pilots they’d have to write off their training bonds and having to pay off many people who would actually quite welcome it.
This dispute is their one chance, they know if they back down they’ll never get another chance, they weren’t frightened when they were threatened with job losses, it actually seemed to strengthen their resolve.
As the old saying goes “Better to die on your feet than live on your knees”.

By the way, what’s a PCP...?

Comhrá

billy few mates wrote: »

By the way, what’s a PCP...?

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/money/loans/paying-for-your-car/pcp/

rivegauche

Why would they even bother wasting precious negotiating time on a trifle such as protective notice since the pilots are reportedly unperturbed by it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0814/985149-ryaniar-pilot-talks/

"The former head of the Workplace Relations Commission could also ask Ryanair to row back from a move to cut its Dublin aircraft fleet from October, with the possible loss or transfer of hundreds of jobs."

doolox

A way to buy a new car but you never actually fully own it.

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

Why would they even bother wasting precious negotiating time on a trifle such as protective notice since the pilots are reportedly unperturbed by it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0814/985149-ryaniar-pilot-talks/

"The former head of the Workplace Relations Commission could also ask Ryanair to row back from a move to cut its Dublin aircraft fleet from October, with the possible loss or transfer of hundreds of jobs."

That shouldn't be too hard for the company to row back on...

billy few mates

doolox wrote: »

A way to buy a new car but you never actually fully own it.

Seems a rather odd way for someone on €200k to buy a car but I'm sure they'll be grateful for Rivegauche's warning as indeed I'm sure they're grateful for all his dire warnings on here of what will happen to them if they stand up for themselves...

L1011

Blut2 wrote: »

rivegauche's posts may show a complete ignorance of aviation industry best practices, but that doesn't mean they have no "observed experience" in the aviation industry to be fair. If anything, 130 odd of their 190 total boards.ie posts (and almost all their recent ones) being exclusively in this Ryanair thread, SNIP

Speculation as to a posters identity or employment isn't allowed across boards.ie

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Why would they even bother wasting precious negotiating time on a trifle such as protective notice since the pilots are reportedly unperturbed by it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0814/985149-ryaniar-pilot-talks/

"The former head of the Workplace Relations Commission could also ask Ryanair to row back from a move to cut its Dublin aircraft fleet from October, with the possible loss or transfer of hundreds of jobs."

Media wittering, written by someone who fell for the sham

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Seems a rather odd way for someone on €200k to buy a car but I'm sure they'll be grateful for Rivegauche's warning as indeed I'm sure they're grateful for all his dire warnings on here of what will happen to them if they stand up for themselves...

Your contention is that the pilots are barely subsisting so imminent unemployment would be of great concern to them if they have monthly financial obligations to service.

Tenger

L1011 wrote: »

The flights that are "dissapearing" have always been removed in the winter. Pilots have annual flight time restrictions, you use each pilot you have less in the quieter times so you actually have enough pilots to operate the summer schedule!

Spot on.
Similar situation has happened in EI, Stobart and Cityjet over the last 10 years. (I presume BA,Easyjet, Norwegian etc. are similar) Schedule is cut back by 20-30% due less demand. Flight crew can fly a maximum of 900 hours per year, MoLs famous “16 hours a week” lie.
Irish airlines work in a seasonal sector so crew fly 80-90 per month in busy 8 month ‘summer’ season with temporary layoffs or annual leave over the winter lull.

The old chestnut from Ryanair that they “parking 90 aircraft over the winter rather than pay exorbitant airport charges” is pure PR spin. They, along with other European airlines are reducing their schedule in line with seasonal demand.
Of course the statement is technically true as any fee is exorbitant if it’s a near empty plane!

Bob24

No agreement found after the 3 days period they had set, but apparently they are extending the talks for another day today: http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-pilots-talks-4183684-Aug2018/

I guess the extension is a sign that both parties think reaching a deal is possible.

rivegauche

more promising news.
http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-tarifforderungen/46407

"Ryanair hat sich erstmals bereit erklärt, in einem Tarifkonflikt nationales Arbeits- und Sozialrecht anzuerkennen. Dies bestätigte die Gewerkschaft Verdi nach ihrer ersten Verhandlungsrunde mit den Iren im Gespräch mit airliners.de"

To save people having to use a translator
For the first time, Ryanair has agreed to recognise national labour and social law in a collective dispute. This was confirmed by the Verdi union after its first round of negotiations with the Irish in conversation with airliners.de "


Cabin crew could potentially be employed on local contracts in Germany. Things Moving along nicely now. Just got to keep the momentum.

Bob24

Things have gone awfully quite about the mediation in Dublin which seems like it keeps getting extended.

Still wondering if it is a good or a bad sign ...

billy few mates

Bob24 wrote: »

Things have gone awfully quite about the mediation in Dublin which seems like it keeps getting extended.

Still wondering if it is a food or a bad sign ...

Well they're still talking, which is always a good sign...

CoisFharraige

Bob24 wrote: »

Things have gone awfully quite about the mediation in Dublin which seems like it keeps getting extended.

Still wondering if it is a good or a bad sign ...

Still ongoing and both have been told not to comment in the media.

Brendan Bendar

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Still ongoing and both have been told not to comment in the media.

He heh anyone who thought that this would be sorted in a few days doesn’t know too much about Unions.

These guys will sit till Christmas if they have to, the others have an airline to run and schedules to keep.

Nothing wrong of course, let me emphasize, but this kind of stuff is completely new for FR.

Bob24

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

Things have gone awfully quite about the mediation in Dublin which seems like it keeps getting extended.

Still wondering if it is a good or a bad sign ...

Still ongoing and both have been told not to comment in the media.

Yeah it makes sense and I get that. But I assume Kieran Mulvey doesn’t fancy spending too much longer going to Dublin airport everyday.

Brendan Bendar

Bob24 wrote: »

Yeah it makes sense and I get that. But I assume Kieran Mulvey doesn’t fancy spending too much longer going to Dublin airport everyday.

He better get used to it if he is,as it seems to be, the go to guy.

Blut2

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

He heh anyone who thought that this would be sorted in a few days doesn’t know too much about Unions.

These guys will sit till Christmas if they have to, the others have an airline to run and schedules to keep.

Nothing wrong of course, let me emphasize, but this kind of stuff is completely new for FR.

I'd imagine the unions will be in more of a rush than Ryanair in this case. They're the ones who want immediate changes to working conditions, so the longer things drag on the longer their members are suffering.

Plus, the longer things go on the more experienced pilots Ryanair can hire to help reduce their current shortage crisis. In theory at least, if they can actually attract any.

Brendan Bendar

Blut2 wrote: »

I'd imagine the unions will be in more of a rush than Ryanair in this case. They're the ones who want immediate changes to working conditions, so the longer things drag on the longer their members are suffering.

Plus, the longer things go on the more experienced pilots Ryanair can hire to help reduce their current shortage crisis. In theory at least, if they can actually attract any.

I’d have to disagree there B, sure they want immediate changes but they are realistic enough to see that,while there will be changes, they won’t be immediate.

Their members aren’t suffering as in a protracted all out strike, these are one day affairs and won’t affect the pilots in any substantial way.

Your last sentence debunks your first sentence, FR cannot just hire more pilots with 73-8 rating at the drop of a hat given the current situation.

If that was the case FR would lock out the Irish based pilots and proceed from there.

That’s not going to happen.

Look ,the ball is in the Unions court, FR are firmly on the back foot, this thing will take around a year to wash through.

Blut2

I disagree - in addition to the above, the unions will also be aware they have far more leverage in peak summer season in August than in October or February, with the threat of strikes. Ryanair are far less able to respond logistically to any disruption in summer. I think the ball is in Ryanair's court, to use your metaphor: they'll be the ones who decide whether to hold on or meet the union's demands.

I definitely agree that Ryanair aren't going to be able to hire more pilots, though - with their current bad PR and the global pilot shortage - thats why I added the last sentence! The "Ryanair can just fire all the striking pilots and hire more to replace them" argument is one thats been made multiple times in this thread though, which is why I mentioned it.

Brendan Bendar

Blut2 wrote: »

I disagree - in addition to the above, the unions will also be aware they have far more leverage in peak summer season in August than in October or February, with the threat of strikes. Ryanair are far less able to respond logistically to any disruption in summer. I think the ball is in Ryanair's court, to use your metaphor: they'll be the ones who decide whether to hold on or meet the union's demands.

I definitely agree that Ryanair aren't going to be able to hire more pilots, though - with their current bad PR and the global pilot shortage - thats why I added the last sentence! The "Ryanair can just fire all the striking pilots and hire more to replace them" argument is one thats been made multiple times in this thread though, which is why I mentioned it.

Ok B, guess we will have to see how it pans out.

Just remember that cabin crew are waiting in the background to get involved, and there’s ground staff too.

There’s always public opinion which tends to have a big influence in these situations and that is,in my opinion,firmly on the side of the workforce.

This thing will take months and months to wash through.

Bob24

Just saw on the RTÉ website that an agreement has been found (although they don’t give any detail). It still needs to be balloted with pilots though.

Quite curious to find out what is in there.

LeChienMefiant

Bob24 wrote: »

Just saw on the RTÉ website that an agreement has been found (although they don’t give any detail). It still needs to be balloted with pilots though.

Quite curious to find out what is in there.

Aren't we all! They've been very good at keeping info to themselves. Although no doubt the hedge funds etc have been doing their best to find out what's going on. It's probably taken a lot of heat of of the conflict by restricting flow of information (/barbs) via the media. Which is of course welcome.