Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

ted1

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Are the captains on 156k? wow

No, the majority wouldn’t be. Ryanair’s way of quoting salaries is of their very very top-earning captains, of which there are only a handful, and using that as ‘this is what our captains earn’, when in reality it is much lower (100K lower based on recent figures they published). Also, they take into account PRSI etc and other expenses they pay for pilots as employers and astutely say ‘we pay X for our pilots’ when that figure isn’t what they earn.

Those striking would be on the top tier. And well above the newer staff who couldn’t get full contracts

Mebuntu

Bob24 wrote: »

This was pretty close to suggesting it to be fair:

I would respectfully suggest you are putting words in my mouth.

If you were not suggesting that the union is being used to benefit Aer Lingus in this case, then why can they not be seen as neutral to represent Ryanair pilots?

For the same reason I could not see Aer Lingus negotiating with anyone from Ryanair in the vicinity. If you are unable to see that then we must agree to disagree.

IALPA represents pilots from small airlines with their largest representation from an airline with one base. Ryanair is too big for them to understand an operation of that size and the best way to run it to make it work successfully.

L1011

Mebuntu wrote: »

IALPA represents pilots from small airlines with their largest representation from an airline with one base. Ryanair is too big for them to understand an operation of that size and the best way to run it to make it work successfully.

Exceptionally patronising and in no way based in fact.

Can you actually make an argument that is factual and without innuendo? You haven't yet, by the way, lest you think you had.

Mebuntu

L1011 wrote: »

Of irrelevance.

Well, that is just your opinion which, of course, you are fully entitled to air. It does not make it fact.

If, and I'm not entirely clear if that's what you actually were saying above, an aviation union purports to represent pilots from many airlines but the Presidentship (not sure if that's a word) has over all the years been held by a rep from only one airline that tells me that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. If that is not what you meant then, of course, I take it back.

Mebuntu

L1011 wrote: »

Can you actually make an argument that is factual and without innuendo?

Hmm, I thought personal insults were not allowed on Boards - only attack the opinion not the poster but, not to worry, water off a duck's back .

billy few mates

ted1 wrote: »

billy few mates wrote: »

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Bill, it’s always about money if you drill down.

Now you can put seniority issues, base changes on promotion an other stuff in there, but it’s money, Bill, always money.

What money are they looking for in this dispute...?
This is about a seniority system...

It’s to test the Union and build their numbers if they win the next strike will be about money

But they’re not looking for money in the case of this strike...?

ted1

billy few mates wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

billy few mates wrote: »

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Bill, it’s always about money if you drill down.

Now you can put seniority issues, base changes on promotion an other stuff in there, but it’s money, Bill, always money.

What money are they looking for in this dispute...?
This is about a seniority system...

It’s to test the Union and build their numbers if they win the next strike will be about money

But they’re not looking for money in the case of this strike...?

Did you not read what I said. The next one will be. This is a pissing competition.

L1011

Mebuntu wrote: »

Hmm, I thought personal insults were not allowed on Boards - only attack the opinion not the poster but, not to worry, water off a duck's back .

That *is* dealing with the posts. They've been fact-free and full of implication

L1011

Mebuntu wrote: »

Well, that is just your opinion which, of course, you are fully entitled to air. It does not make it fact.

If, and I'm not entirely clear if that's what you actually were saying above, an aviation union purports to represent pilots from many airlines but the Presidentship (not sure if that's a word) has over all the years been held by a rep from only one airline that tells me that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. If that is not what you meant then, of course, I take it back.

Your attempts at stirring here just look pathetic.

jaxxx

I respect everyone's right to strike, and maybe I'm alone in this but in an area where so many thousands of people are affected, I don't think striking should be allowed if it causes disruption to so many people on such a large scale. The same thing here not too long ago with the bus strikes. Almost grinded the country to a halt. I know what I'm saying is contradictory "respect right to strike, don't think X should strike", and I know it kinda defeats the purpose of a strike or any form of industrial action, but it's not something as simple as say workers of a retail chain for example striking. Customers have plenty other options to choose from and more importantly, they are not out of pocket. How many people during these strikes are gonna be out of pocket from air fares, hotel costs, etc? I just think there's better ways to go about it where the oprdinary average Joe and Jane doesn't have to suffer, while at the same time enabling workers to voice their opinions on a level that they will get listened to.

ted1

jaxxx wrote: »

I respect everyone's right to strike, and maybe I'm alone in this but in an area where so many thousands of people are affected, I don't think striking should be allowed if it causes disruption to so many people on such a large scale. The same thing here not too long ago with the bus strikes. Almost grinded the country to a halt. I know what I'm saying is contradictory "respect right to strike, don't think X should strike", and I know it kinda defeats the purpose of a strike or any form of industrial action, but it's not something as simple as say workers of a retail chain for example striking. Customers have plenty other options to choose from and more importantly, they are not out of pocket. How many people during these strikes are gonna be out of pocket from air fares, hotel costs, etc? I just think there's better ways to go about it where the oprdinary average Joe and Jane doesn't have to suffer, while at the same time enabling workers to voice their opinions on a level that they will get listened to.

And fair play to Ryanair mgmt they covered the holiday destinations so families didn’t lose out.

Mebuntu

L1011 wrote: »

Your attempts at stirring here just look pathetic.

I'm not stirring anything. I'm a debater. I'm just giving my opinions on the subject under discussion as they arise which do happen to differ somewhat from yours. The major difference between us appears to be that, even if I don't agree with it, I accept that what you have to say is your honest opinion of the situation as you see it, nothing more nothing less, whereas you don't appear to be able to accept mine in the same manner and have now resorted to insulting my character.

Bob24

Mebuntu wrote: »

I would respectfully suggest you are putting words in my mouth.

I quoted your exact post with no alteration to put it in perspective with another of your newer statements.

Mebuntu wrote: »

For the same reason I could not see Aer Lingus negotiating with anyone from Ryanair in the vicinity. If you are unable to see that then we must agree to disagree.

What do you mean by “in the vicinity”. The union now has a mix of Aer Lingus pilots and Ryanair pilots as its members. Why would that same mixity be ok for negotiating with Aer Lingus but make the union not “neutral” when dealing with Ryanair.


PS: I am not cheering for the union or anything, but this background noise initiated by Ryanair insinuating the union is not legitimate/neutral to negociate because it originally is a union for Aer Lingus pilots is getting very tiring. It is no less ridiculous than if Aer Lingus was starting to claim the union is not legitimate anymore to negotiate with because it is now controlled by Ryanair pilots.

L1011

L1011 wrote: »

She was in Catering as far as I know. The price of the breakfast went down by 2 quid after she left...

I would hope they don't have a structure like the teachers do for indefinite leave for this purpose.

She always did remind me of a certain priests housekeeper! Ah, go on, go on, go on......

Bob24

jaxxx wrote: »

I respect everyone's right to strike, and maybe I'm alone in this but in an area where so many thousands of people are affected, I don't think striking should be allowed if it causes disruption to so many people on such a large scale. The same thing here not too long ago with the bus strikes. Almost grinded the country to a halt. I know what I'm saying is contradictory "respect right to strike, don't think X should strike", and I know it kinda defeats the purpose of a strike or any form of industrial action, but it's not something as simple as say workers of a retail chain for example striking. Customers have plenty other options to choose from and more importantly, they are not out of pocket. How many people during these strikes are gonna be out of pocket from air fares, hotel costs, etc? I just think there's better ways to go about it where the oprdinary average Joe and Jane doesn't have to suffer, while at the same time enabling workers to voice their opinions on a level that they will get listened to.

This is an old debate: should people working in high public impact sectors be allowed to strike?

Usually the answer has to be a 2 ways deal and involve government intervention: you are not legally allowed to strike due to the large public impact, but in exchange and to compensate for that lack of right compared to other workers, you get a special employement status guaranteed by the law which gives your better than normal employee protections and bargaining power.

Thing is, in the case of Ryanair this type of deal would probably increase operational costs quite significantly.

Essentially, people have do decide if they want to designate air transport as a cheap commodity with low prices but sometimes questionable employment practices requiring the right to strike, or as a mission critical service which is more regulated to make it more reliable, but will consequently cost more.

LuckyLloyd

Ryanair brutally used their leverage on staff over the years. I have no problem with key staff using their leverage on them. One party will break first, they always do. Buy Aer Lingus or one of the many other options in the meantime and see what happens.

devnull

300 Flights to be cancelled next Thursday and Friday due to Cabin Crew Strike

https://twitter.com/Ryanair/status/1019575833709694976

Bob24

Interesting. If pilots and cabin crew from different locations are able to “take turns” and ensure there are strikes/cancellations somewheee every couple of weeks, it could really hurt the reputation of the company in terms of reliability (even if the number of cancellations is no massive each time, if people start reading about Ryanair cancellations in the media on a regular basis many will eventually see it as an unreliable airline).

Brendan Bendar

Hmmmm...... will be interesting to see if the Solidarity crowd continue their support given that their supporters might be amongst the worst affected.

Interesting speculation, I would suggest.

Mebuntu

On the RTE1 9pm News tonight it was claimed that 2,400 flights were cancelled next week. Fake news even on RTE .

They later issued a correction to 600 before signing off.

billy few mates

Bob24 wrote: »

Interesting. If pilots and cabin crew from different locations are able to “take turns” and ensure there are strikes/cancellations somewheee every couple of weeks, it could really hurt the reputation of the company in terms of reliability (even if the number of cancellations is no massive each time, if people start reading about Ryanair cancellations in the media on a regular basis many will eventually see it as an unreliable airline).

"Eventually"...?
Would you trust them with your Christmas or summer holiday travel arrangements after this....?

L1011

The earlier post about the Reliable Bastards losing the one element of usefulness comes to mind.

donkey balls

jaxxx wrote: »

I respect everyone's right to strike, and maybe I'm alone in this but in an area where so many thousands of people are affected, I don't think striking should be allowed if it causes disruption to so many people on such a large scale. The same thing here not too long ago with the bus strikes. Almost grinded the country to a halt. I know what I'm saying is contradictory "respect right to strike, don't think X should strike", and I know it kinda defeats the purpose of a strike or any form of industrial action, but it's not something as simple as say workers of a retail chain for example striking. Customers have plenty other options to choose from and more importantly, they are not out of pocket. How many people during these strikes are gonna be out of pocket from air fares, hotel costs, etc? I just think there's better ways to go about it where the oprdinary average Joe and Jane doesn't have to suffer, while at the same time enabling workers to voice their opinions on a level that they will get listened to.

Some of the politicians and the companies union IBEC wanted to have what they called critical jobs exempt from strike action at one stage they wanted the likes of the transport industry exempted.
This would have included Air/ Rail & road transport ( Pax & freight) if this had of come in the companies would have run amoke using the critical jobs aspect to quash any sort of employee work action/strike.
The company I work for is heavily unionized yet there is a good relationship with the mgmt & employees, As for IALPA having EI members what about the likes of BALPA surely they have both BA & EZY as members.

mattser

French ATC must be due their daily strike.

Bob24

billy few mates wrote: »

"Eventually"...?
Would you trust them with your Christmas or summer holiday travel arrangements after this....?

Me? Probably not (I had already been avoiding Ryanair when possible anyway even before the strikes as I am neither keen on how they treat staff nor on how they treat customers).

But at this stage I don’t see them as having gained a widespread reputation for being unreliable with the general public to the point that it is hurting they business significantly. They are heading way if they don’t adress their issues though.

Anahita

Further action on Tuesday the 24th.

"RYANAIR HAS SAID it will cancel 16 flights in and out of Ireland on Tuesday if trade union Fórsa doesn’t call off a planned strike.

In a statement released earlier today the airline urged Fórsa, which represents Irish pilots, to call off its third 24-hour stoppage, scheduled for 24 July.

Ryanair said the industrial action involves less than 25% of its Irish pilots."http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-cancelled-flights-5-4137467-Jul2018/

Hellrazer

In all fairness their strike has been pretty much useless so far.
I don't think it's been as effective as Ialpa thought it would be.

Needs a change in tactics if they've to get anywhere.

rivegauche

Damp Squib

View Profile

Hellrazer wrote:

In all fairness their strike has been pretty much useless so far. I don't think it's been as effective as Ialpa thought it would be.

It's been hugely effective.

Yes, there haven't been massive disruptions or flight cancellations.... yet.

Irish pilots, in the home of Ryanair, for the first time in its history have carried out industrial action!
This is massive for the pilots moral, but also a huge blow for managements. Senior management are worried and panicking.

And this is just the beginning. Pilots in Germany, Sweden and Holland are concluding their ballot so expect further strikes in August.
Ryanair pilots are finally realising management can no longer intimidate and bully them. The fear is gone and pilots know they can strike without repercussions.

An important point to note. In Ireland contractor pilots legally cannot strike.
This is not the case in Europe, so expect much higher turn outs on the picket line.

Brendan Bendar

rivegauche wrote: »

Damp Squib

Nah. Just the opening shots...big stuff will come later if the situation is not resolved, which wouldn’t be too difficult.

What do they say in American football when wide receivers get just a gentle contact....that is outside the numbers,down the sidelines.
“You just playing on the water dude”

Wait tilll you start playing on ‘the concrete’ inside the numbers.

FR isnt inside the numbers just yet.:D

Still playing on the water.

Pat Dunne

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nah. Just the opening shots...big stuff will come later if the situation is not resolved, which wouldn’t be too difficult.

What do they say in American football when wide receivers get just a gentle contact....that is outside the numbers,down the sidelines.
“You just playing on the water dude”

Wait tilll you start playing on ‘the concrete’ inside the numbers.

FR isnt inside the numbers just yet.:D

Still playing on the water.

Could you translate that into a form of English which is spoken on this side of the Atlantic. Thanks

Brendan Bendar

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Could you translate that into a form of English which is spoken on this side of the Atlantic. Thanks

Sorry Pat.... lost the run of meself, apologies to you.

Hellrazer

View Profile wrote: »

It's been hugely effective.

Yes, there haven't been massive disruptions or flight cancellations.... yet.

Irish pilots, in the home of Ryanair, for the first time in its history have carried out industrial action!
This is massive for the pilots moral, but also a huge blow for managements.

You must be reading something different than me??
30 flights the first day,24 the second and 16 on the third.
Doesn't sound like a huge blow for management. Them seem to have disruptions down to a minimum and are managing these strikes quite well.

Senior management are worried and panicking.

I have to say it really doesn't look like that. I think Ryanair are willing to try and break the strike.

And this is just the beginning. Pilots in Germany, Sweden and Holland are concluding their ballot so expect further strikes in August.
Ryanair pilots are finally realising management can no longer intimidate and bully them. The fear is gone and pilots know they can strike without repercussions.

I was specifically only talking about Forsa / Ialpa and how ineffective the strike has been.
What happens elsewhere in Europe is a different matter. Yes maybe there will be hundreds of flights cancelled by other countries pilots but so far the Irish pilots strikes haven't had the desired effect. And the pilots are starting to loose the support of the public. Forsa need to be very careful with not engaging. Since Ryanair are publishing publically their letters to the union and then the next day are accusing them of not engaging in the media its turning people who were once supporters of the pilots against them.

An important point to note. In Ireland contractor pilots legally cannot strike.
This is not the case in Europe, so expect much higher turn outs on the picket line.

That could well be the case. Maybe Forsa could learn from their European counterparts.

IngazZagni

Hellrazer wrote: »

In all fairness their strike has been pretty much useless so far.
I don't think it's been as effective as Ialpa thought it would be.

Needs a change in tactics if they've to get anywhere.

I don't think you appreciate the efforts Ryanair are going to to fly pilots in from other countries to operate these flights on behalf of the striking pilots and the impact this may be happening outside of Ireland. It's extremely important that their home base is seen to be operating as close to normal as possible.
When this dispute starts spreading to other countries things could get a lot more messy before they get better.

Hellrazer

IngazZagni wrote: »

I don't think you appreciate the efforts Ryanair are going to to fly pilots in from other countries to operate these flights on behalf of the striking pilots and the impact this may be happening outside of Ireland. It's extremely important that their home base is seen to be operating as close to normal as possible.
When this dispute starts spreading to other countries things could get a lot more messy before they get better.

I understand completely the complexity of them moving pilots around to cover.

However its highly improbable that all 100 of those pilots are rostered to work on every strike day so far??
Hardly all 100 of them are supposed to be working everyday?

Whats is the actual breakdown of how many of the actual pilots striking are rostered to work on the strike days? If it was only 50 actually supposed to be working then that leaves only the 25 or so flights without crew and would account for the small number of cancellations.


That would be a more interesting figure to know and could account for why its not been as disruptive as people thought it would be.

If I was a Forsa representative trying to cause as much disruption as possible in order to make management sit up an listen then Id ensure the strike days were the days when the highest number of pilots eligible to strike were actually on duty.

Mebuntu

oops. I posted this in the wrong thread earlier.

Part One of the Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk this morning involved discussion first with the union and then the airline.

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back...y_Show_Part_1/

CoisFharraige

Mebuntu wrote: »

oops. I posted this in the wrong thread earlier.

Part One of the Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk this morning involved discussion first with the union and then the airline.

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back...y_Show_Part_1/

Thanks for that. A great show in my opinion. Both sides given equal opportunity, and a good way for the public to make up their own minds about the strikes etc. I think Kenny Jacobs from Ryanair really tried to brush over morale etc and focused on FÓRSA 'unwilling' to meet etc, and kept puking out stats, and the 'small number' of pilots striking - he remarked about that 20 times, really undermines the pilots. Glad Pat Kenny challenged it.

billy few mates

Quite an even handed approach to the interview. I thought the union guy performed quite well compared to the woman who was on Morning Ireland a few weeks ago.
It was a shame Kenny Jacobs had to keep lapsing into Mini-MOL mode as he normally comes across quite well. This policy of having to put the word 'unnecessary' in front of every mention of the word strike and 'Aer Lingus Pilots' in front of the word union is getting a bit tedious and reeks of a desperate spin attempt. Likewise the constant need to keep mentioning 'small number' or 'less than 25% of' when referring to the striking pilots also comes across as a bit desperate.
Whatever way they try to paint it they've got a problem on their hands and I don't think they're going to be able to spin their way out of it. They could easily knock this whole thing on the head if they wanted to, there's no way it could cost them as much as this uncertainty is likely to cost them.

Turnipman

billy few mates wrote: »

Whatever way they try to paint it they've got a problem on their hands and I don't think they're going to be able to spin their way out of it. They could easily knock this whole thing on the head if they wanted to, there's no way it could cost them as much as this uncertainty is likely to cost them.

Spin or no spin, the employer appears to have devised a strategy to address their 'problem'. Interesting times ahead; my commiserations to my fellow members of the travelling/holidaying community.

Turnipman

Turnipman wrote: »

Spin or no spin, the employer appears to have devised a strategy to address their 'problem'. Interesting times ahead; my commiserations to my fellow members of the travelling/holidaying community.

One thing is for sure and that’s that passengers of all airlines will be the biggest losers with higher charges across the board.

CoisFharraige

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0725/980917-ryanair-dublin-cuts/

300 Staff to be moved out of the country or else made redundant due to 'rapid growth' in Poland and elsewhere. Hmm... Imagine this has absolutely nothing to do with striking crew ...

devnull

And I wonder what the percentage of those 100 pilots given notice are the directly employed striking ones? I bet it's much higher than overall percentage of such staff based out of Dublin.

It may well be a warning shot across the bows to the union that if they persist they will just move planes and jobs out the country, I would say without explicitly saying it.

It's also a distraction from the fact there is a massive cabin crew strike and if people are talking about this they are not going to be talking about the strikes happening in other countries today.

mattser

Turnipman wrote: »

Spin or no spin, the employer appears to have devised a strategy to address their 'problem'. Interesting times ahead; my commiserations to my fellow members of the travelling/holidaying community.

Pity about them. Don't know how good they have it. If they were born 30 years earlier they'd be paying megabucks to the AL/BA cartel.

NH2013

It is ironic really;

Pilots Demands: A clear transparent basing agreement based on seniority so as to end the culture of people being moved to random less appealing bases away from their families for taking too much fuel/calling in sick/calling fatigued/not going into discretion/not working days off.

Ryanair’s Solution: Right, we’re moving 300 of you away to Poland, that should shut you up.

Seems to me Ryanair have just shot themselves in the foot PR wise by doing exactly what the pilots went on strike over and making it public news at the same time.

Turnipman

mattser wrote: »

Pity about them. Don't know how good they have it. If they were born 30 years earlier they'd be paying megabucks to the AL/BA cartel.

If your idea of "having it good" is being stuck in a sweaty, overcrowded terminal somewhere in Europe for countless hours while waiting for a flight to take you home, then I suspect that your dream holiday is a weekend in Lough Derg, shoes optional.

Wanderer78

Oh this one is gonna get nasty, best of luck to the staff

mattser

Turnipman wrote: »

If your idea of "having it good" is being stuck in a sweaty, overcrowded terminal somewhere in Europe for countless hours while waiting for a flight to take you home, then I suspect that your dream holiday is a weekend in Lough Derg, shoes optional.

Nah, that's just bad luck. I'm talking about the price of getting them there and back. Again, they don't know how good they have it. Lough Derg is great value too, actually.

LeChienMefiant

NH2013 wrote: »

It is ironic really;

Pilots Demands: A clear transparent basing agreement based on seniority so as to end the culture of people being moved to random less appealing bases away from their families for taking too much fuel/calling in sick/calling fatigued/not going into discretion/not working days off.

Ryanair’s Solution: Right, we’re moving 300 of you away to Poland, that should shut you up.

Seems to me Ryanair have just shot themselves in the foot PR wise by doing exactly what the pilots went on strike over and making it public news at the same time.

Are there examples of permanent employees with 5 years plus experience being moved around like this? Because the Newstalk interview would suggest it's just not an issue for more experienced staff.

Storm 10

NH2013 wrote: »

It is ironic really

Ryanair’s Solution: Right,
we’re moving 300 of you away to Poland, that should shut you up.

It said on RTE at 10am that the 300 are on protective notice so it looks like they will lose their jobs, they wont be moved to Poland.

Turnipman

mattser wrote: »

Lough Derg is great value too, actually.

I'm sure it is - but the cuisine is pretty dodgy by all accounts! :eek: