BusConnects effects on North Kildare

L1011

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I acknowledge valid concerns and will try to explain when someone has a genuine query

You have followed me across forums and tried to accuse me of working for the NTA because I find your complaints about the replacement of a worse than useless service with a coherent one, that you haven't actually read up on and hence don't understand, to be significantly below the standard of being valid.

If you could read the proposal and stop trying to accuse people of working for NTA, that'd be nice.

OldMrBrennan83

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L1011

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Read the thread. Most or all of these have been mentioned as issues with the plan:

The 259 terminus needs to be moved to Riverforest

The C4 needs to have its frequency significantly increased off-peak.

The C3 could do with being extended to the Maynooth Town pitches as the 66 was meant to be.

ALL the express services need to skip Lucan and there should be more of them.

I have no knowledge of the other Kildare service (the 65) or its replacement so can't make any comments on it really. Therein ends the scope of the forum.

lordgoat

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I disagree completely with this. I don't know L1011 at all but his posts are always well thought out. Without posters who take their time to get information and then pass it on accurately this place would fall apart.

/fin

Also can we get back on topic now?

mcgovern

L1011 wrote: »

Make submissions about the Confey Station stop being implausible and Riverforest being cut off if it affects you - its an obvious change to make to the 259 route.

The wait in the village would have been a wait in the city centre (probably a lot longer) for a 66A in the past - its just moved the location and reduced the max wait.

I've emailed them and filled in the survey.
I don't agree about the wait though. If I'm in the city center and the next bus is not for 45 minutes I can do a bit of shopping, consider getting the train instead etc.
If I'm waiting in Leixlip village there is nothing to do but stand out in the open.
You can't accurately time getting a bus from the city center to meet the bus in Leixlip village because the bus reliability is terrible, and you've no idea what time it will actually arrive at.

fitz

The condescension on here is absolutely stunning.

This is simple, you go back to the user needs.
I would be very surprised if the vast majority of bus users in Celbridge needs weren't prioritised as follows:

1. frequent service to and from the city centre during peak times
2. frequent service to and from the city centre during off-peak
3. connectivity to Leixlip, Maynooth and Lucan

The best version of 1 & 2 for users, is for it to use the fastest route possible.
The best version of 3 is to have a dedicated service that runs non-stop throughout the day.
Any attempt address connectivity to the city and local connectivity in one solution results in a compromised outcome.

It's objective fact that a direct bus from Celbridge which bypasses Leixlip, Lucan, and Chapelizod will get users into the city centre faster than any other alternative.
Connectivity to Leixlip, Maynooth and Lucan has, I would expect, a far smaller user base than those who need the fastest option possible for getting in and out of the city, and it should be addressed separately.

Celbridge, unlike Leixlip or Maynooth, does not have a train station that gets you into the city centre.
Using the train is a three hop journey - feeder, train, then Luas to get from Hueston to the centre.
That's a sh*tty user experience compared to providing a direct bus service.

No-one denies the bus strategy needs to change, but this blind acceptance of crappy service offerings to the largest customer population in North Kildare is baffling tbh.

L1011

Celbridge users are still going to get an end to end faster service than they have now - Chapelizod/Conyngham Road and v/v versus the Chapelizod Bypass QBC will more than compensate for the difference in time in going through Leixlip.

There are clear issues with off-peak services (they are proposing a significant cut which is illogical) and express peak services which should definitely skip Leixlip and Lucan.

Hazelhatch has had peak trains to the city centre for about 9 months and should be getting all day service later this year. The station is still extremely far from the majority of the housing stock though, with a basically invisible shuttle bus service that only serves parts. There is also the Bus Eireann service to be considered as additional capacity.

Seth Brundle

fitz wrote: »

Celbridge, unlike Leixlip or Maynooth, does not have a train station that gets you into the city centre.
Using the train is a three hop journey - feeder, train, then Luas to get from Hueston to the centre.
That's a sh*tty user experience compared to providing a direct bus service.

I presume therefore that you are dismissing Hazelhatch as a train station for Celbridge even though it gets one into the city centre?

fitz

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I presume therefore that you are dismissing Hazelhatch as a train station for Celbridge even though it gets one into the city centre?

No, I'm dismissing Heuston as the city centre.

The Mulk

fitz wrote: »

No, I'm dismissing Heuston as the city centre.

So the PPT never opened and trains from Hazelhatch can't get to Connolly now?

fxotoole

L1011 wrote: »

Seeing this done on another East regional forum - there's massive change proposed for the Dublin Bus routes that serve Kildare.

https://www.labour.ie/emmetstagg/news/15306185393010417.html

All of this will be coupled by major changes in priority for buses at junctions and better stops (shelters, signage, etc). If you don't think it'll happen - the buses are already ordered, the money is reserved in the budgets for the infrastructure - two BILLION over a fairly short time period to buy the gardens needed for widening and so on.

Basically, the 66 will be the C3 and will go up to 4x as frequent. It'll be much the same in Kildare but will skip Chapelizod so will be quicker in. There may be a few junction changes and stop moves to make it go faster.

The 67 will be the C4 and run to Celbridge only, never Maynooth. It'll go via Leixlip and skip Chapelizod so it'll be quicker in but as much quicker as the C3 becomes

There will be a new Maynooth-Tallaght bus the W8 and a new Hazelhatch Station-Confey Station bus the 259, both basically every 30 minutes all the time.

The 66A is gone but you can get a 259 down the Hill, there should be a C3 or C4 within minutes and the same ticket will do. The 66B will be replaced by the C4 route through Leixlip

Celbridge looks to have less buses on weekday and particularly weekend evenings, hopefully that'll be fixed before it happens. Everywhere gets way more buses on peak (Leixlip as little as every 5 minutes during peak) and during weekday daytime.

People living further in to Confey may want to make submissions about the 259 going to the station instead of the estate; anyone in Celbridge thinking going through Leixlip is slower needs to remember it'll be more than cancelled out by skipping Chapelizod.

What about Kilcock?

L1011

fxotoole wrote: »

What about Kilcock?

Was never in scope for this, so nothing. There was an increase in 115 services a while back.

fxotoole

That's a shame, and with the current population explosion in Kilcock, it's gonna come back and bite the government in the arse to be honest!

fitz

The Mulk wrote: »

So the PPT never opened and trains from Hazelhatch can't get to Connolly now?

I stand corrected, I'd completely forgotten about that.
It's still not ideal, time taken to get through Celbridge village in the morning makes trip up to Hazelhatch a pain, current feeder issues have already been mentioned too.

r93kaey5p2izun

It's crazy that Kilcock ever lost its DB service and that there's no plan to improve connectivity now given the number of new housing developments. The Travel 90 fares also won't apply to transfer between BE and other operators so the 115 will continue to be an expensive option if you need to connect

OttoPilot

River Weak Abdominal wrote: »

It's crazy that Kilcock ever lost its DB service and that there's no plan to improve connectivity now given the number of new housing developments. The Travel 90 fares also won't apply to transfer between BE and other operators so the 115 will continue to be an expensive option if you need to connect

I never realized Kilcock had DB service, when was it lost? Surely it took far too long if it went through Maynooth and leixlip or celbridge?

The Mulk

fitz wrote: »

I stand corrected, I'd completely forgotten about that.
It's still not ideal, time taken to get through Celbridge village in the morning makes trip up to Hazelhatch a pain, current feeder issues have already been mentioned too.

I use it the odd time and find it a great service, it's not as busy as the bus though( I live on the HazelHatch side.)Currently the bus is superior, it seems that these plans are trying to turn people to train use in Celbridge

r93kaey5p2izun

OttoPilot wrote: »

I never realized Kilcock had DB service, when was it lost? Surely it took far too long if it went through Maynooth and leixlip or celbridge?

It wasn't a great service but it was a lot cheaper than what's currently available if you're not just going to the city centre.. A few 66 buses started/ended there per day. It was lost around 2010.

If the proposed Leap90 applied to BE transfers for short journeys to make connections it would help a lot. It won't though, I asked on twitter. Ideally one of the local connecting routes would connect Kilcock to Maynooth. It's a big lost opportunity I think.

n97 mini

mcgovern wrote: »

I've emailed them and filled in the survey.
I don't agree about the wait though. If I'm in the city center and the next bus is not for 45 minutes I can do a bit of shopping, consider getting the train instead etc.
If I'm waiting in Leixlip village there is nothing to do but stand out in the open.
You can't accurately time getting a bus from the city center to meet the bus in Leixlip village because the bus reliability is terrible, and you've no idea what time it will actually arrive at.

I've made my submission too, and have made the same point. Using an infrequent service to connect in to a frequent one is no problem, but on the return journey the average wait for a connection will be 15 minutes. From what I can see the interchange point will be at St Mary's Church (the first point where the bus stops overlap), and there is nothing to do there. I can see those who are fit enough to walk up Captain's Hill getting off at Main St rather than waiting.

While the numbering system makes sense, I think it would have been an easier sell if they had retained the old numbering (initially) for routes which are similar-ish to the old routes. The 259 could have been left as the 66A. I'm in a Leixlip FB group and the amount of "OMG!!! They're taking our 66A away..." type posts is astounding, with some of the local councillors jumping on the bandwagon.

In spite of the 15 minute wait thing (I'd much rather wait in the Porterhouse for 30) I've given the changes a cautious welcome.

Victor

judeboy101 wrote: »

Leixlip has 2 train stations and 2 radial routes servicing it. Celbridge, with a way larger population, has one radial route (which goes through leixlip) no train stations (hazelhatch is NOT in celbridge) .

Routes W8 and 259 will connect Celbridge and Hazelhatch.

fitz wrote: »

I really have no idea how you think going through Leixlip is going to take less time than going through Chapelizod.

Celbridge has upwards of 5000 more people than Leixlip or Maynooth. Why does Leixlip require that frequency of service? Why do two routes need to go through Leixlip, particularly at peak times when they're more likely to only be picking up a handful of people before being full. Increasing frequency is bugger-all use if it's not improving journey times. Busses from Celbridge through Leixlip will increase journey times. Not a chance in hell they won't.

The terminal is at Salesians. Where is that bus going to go from there to service Leixlip? Think about the route. Either it loops around via Celbridge Main Street and back up towards Salesians, over to Leixlip via the interchange and through Leixlip Village, or it keeps the current route as far as Young's cross, goes left and into Leixlip that way, cutting out the stops between Young's cross and the N4, or it carries on at Young's cross, goes left at the N4 down into Leixlip and then doubles back?
I can't see how any of these routes make sense and won't add more time than is gained by bypassing Chapelizod.

And the point about frequency trumping journey times is doesn't stand up when talking about peak times. If public transport doesn't get you from A to B as quickly and directly as possible, why use it? Every if it only added 10 minutes each way, that's 1 hour 40 minutes a week of time you could be spending at home.

Bypassing Lucan and Chapelizod on all Celbridge, Maynooth or Leixlip based services wouldn't result in minor speed improvements, that would make a material difference to journey times. Connecting local towns using a circle line that runs non stop between them makes way more sense to me.

It reads like you didn't look at the maps or read the report when you wrote this.

fitz

Victor wrote: »

Routes W8 and 259 will connect Celbridge and Hazelhatch.

It reads like you didn't look at the maps or read the report when you wrote this.

I hadn't...I found the full doc shortly after. Points still stand though. The best service for Celbrudge commuters would be direct, bypassing Lucan as well as Chapelizod, and going no where near Leixlip. Getting through Leixlip Village will negate any benefit that bypassing Chapelizod brings.

The Mulk

fitz wrote: »

I hadn't...I found the full doc shortly after. Points still stand though. The best service for Celbrudge commuters would be direct, bypassing Lucan as well as Chapelizod, and going no where near Leixlip. Getting through Leixlip Village will negate any benefit that bypassing Chapelizod brings.

I agree, I read that the rationale for running the bus through Leixlip is to give greater frequency to Leixlip!!
Celbridge has a larger population that Leixlip and many of the buses are full leaving the village in the mornings, so routing them through Leixlip makes no sense.
I think modelling the new route on the existing 67x will be of most benefit to Celbridge commuters

Riskymove

The Mulk wrote: »

I agree, I read that the rationale for running the bus through Leixlip is to give greater frequency to Leixlip!!
Celbridge has a larger population that Leixlip and many of the buses are full leaving the village in the mornings, so routing them through Leixlip makes no sense.
I think modelling the new route on the existing 67x will be of most benefit to Celbridge commuters

This is the point I made in my submission

I think some of the proposals are good for celbridge and I could even live with the Bus going via Leixlip off peak

but in peak hours it makes little sense, they will be full leaving celbridge and it will be a free for all trying to get a bus home in evening as people from leixlip, lucan and celbridge all vie for same buses

Victor

The Mulk wrote: »

I agree, I read that the rationale for running the bus through Leixlip is to give greater frequency to Leixlip!!

It also means people can get to work in HP, Leixlip and Intel.

Celbridge has a larger population that Leixlip and many of the buses are full leaving the village in the mornings, so routing them through Leixlip makes no sense.

Note that there will no longer be Maynooth passengers on these buses.

Riskymove wrote: »

and it will be a free for all trying to get a bus home in evening as people from leixlip, lucan and celbridge all vie for same buses

That's where the free transfers for 90 minutes come in to play. Get the first bus that comes along. Change buses when that bus is about to turn off your route.

Riskymove

Victor wrote: »

It also means people can get to work in HP, Leixlip and Intel.

The 259 and W8 provide connections to Maynooth and Leixlip
HP is a short walk from existing 67 route

Note that there will no longer be Maynooth passengers on these buses

67X starts in Celbridge so there are not Maynooth passengers in morning peak anyway

That's where the free transfers for 90 minutes come in to play. Get the first bus that comes along. Change buses when that bus is about to turn off your route.

yes that is an option but an issue there is that it is only Celbridge residents who must do this and I think that is why there are concerns. Given populations and the fact that the other 3 areas have direct services you have to ask why it is necessary

You'd also like to see improved investment - particularly around bus shelters if you are expecting significant numbers to change

The Mulk

Victor wrote: »

It also means people can get to work in HP, Leixlip and Intel.
Note that there will no longer be Maynooth passengers on these buses.
That's where the free transfers for 90 minutes come in to play. Get the first bus that comes along. Change buses when that bus is about to turn off your route.

67x currently starts at Salesians, no Maynooth commuters on this

Plus the proposed bus (C4??) goes no where near Intel.

I think the radial routes are a good idea, but the city centre bus routed through Leixlip is a terrible idea.
I just read the route by route comparison, 66x and 67x both being replaced by route 324.
This will run Celbridge via Leixlip via Lucan Village. Another terrible idea.
These proposals are really poor.

The Mulk

There's a petition up at the moment to maintain the direct Celbridge-CC bus.

https://www.change.org/p/national-transport-authority-maintain-and-improve-celbridge-dublin-city-commuter-bus-service?recruiter=35586444&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial.pacific_abi_gmail_send.control.pacific_email_copy_en_2.fake_control.pacific_email_copy_en_gb_1.v1&utm_term=psf_combo_share_message

I'm not sure how effective these are.
I think there are some improvements, but to leave Celbridge without a direct service will really effect commuters.

Bring back Mortons Circle Line:pac:

L1011

It is still direct - saying it isn't direct implies a need to change bus which there isn't. Confey is the only place going to non direct services

The Mulk

L1011 wrote: »

It is still direct - saying it isn't direct implies a need to change bus which there isn't. Confey is the only place going to non direct services

Apologies, I mean direct as in the current 67X route. Using as much bypass and bus lane as possible, avoiding diverting into Leixlip and Lucan.
I think the C4 replacing the 67 "should" be fine.

But the extra peak time bus the 324 diverting via Leixlip and Lucan, and the same in the evenings needs a rethink.
If you want to get to these towns use the C4.
If you want to get to CC use the 324.
This would be a minor alteration to the existing plan.

L1011

The 32x morning services need to be increased in number and made faster definitely. The spine plan can't take huge changes without the whole concept collapsing but the extra services can

The 259 to Confey is apparently going to meet/wait for the trains but that doesn't fix the Riverforest problem, has to be addressed also

I did put a submission in with all this - that or going to the meeting at Tesco in a few weeks (I think) ensure it does go on the feedback documents to the designers