Trump administration to urge colleges to ignore race in admissions

Potatoeman

Quotas don’t work well anyway. Lowering the bar of entry just leads to higher dropout rates. The dropout rate of African Americans is the worst as they benefit the most but struggle to complete courses. The quota gets them in but does not prepare them for the work they face. It’s more about virtue signaling than helping people. If people actually cared they would have acted on this well known academic fact years ago.

professore

dudara wrote: »

It’s a complex societal problem, exacerbated by the fact that the US does not truly see African Americans as equal to whites.

Especially the left - painting them as helpless victims unable to do anything for themselves. The soft bigotry of low expectations.

Imagine being a smart black kid excelling in college. Everyone is going to say it's all because of quotas.

meeeeh

professore wrote: »

Girls have been getting the top spots in courses like medicine, law etc for decades now. Medicine in particular is overwhelmingly girls. Same goes for STEM life sciences. If they were going to be "persuaded" into fields like physics, engineering or computer science it would have happened already.

I got into college on merit in 1989. Because of grants. Not because of quotas. Quotas wouldn't have helped me if fees were $30k per annum. That's the real problem in the US.

I went to school in a different school system, we were continuously assessed from primary school on. I was good enough and encouraged to go to the type of grammar high school and some whose grades would be about 10% worse went to a school where you had a profession after high school. At the end of high school the difference in state exam results was about 30% in comparison to those kids and I was always lazy student (I think I studied about 10 days for leaving cert). Talented kid in challenging environment will have to work a lot harder than someone ok-ish in good school. As it happens classes in my school and classes in same type scools had 60% girls and 40% boys.

I don't know if quotas are the answer but it's naive to think it's all about brains and hard work.

Taytoland

dudara wrote: »

I’m not a huge fan of quotas, but they can serve a purpose. America is terribly racist. On the surface all citizens are equal but in reality the statistics for black people are depressing. I think it’s easy for us here in Ireland to say how it should be a meritocracy but that won’t work in the US.

Remove the quotas fine, but what steps is he taking in parallel to ensure that African Americans get the same equal shots? You know, opportunities like not behingng shot to death by police officers or being significantly more likely to be jailed?

Based on what? If America really was terribly racist they would never have elected a black President. Millions of people who voted for Trump voted for Obama.

Geuze

dudara wrote: »

And without sounding too “liberal”, why do you think that is? Poor education, little employment, poverty etc all combine to create that environment. It’s a complex societal problem, exacerbated by the fact that the US does not truly see African Americans as equal to whites.

Poverty isn't an excuse for violence.

steddyeddy

professore wrote: »

Especially the left - painting them as helpless victims unable to do anything for themselves. The soft bigotry of low expectations.

Imagine being a smart black kid excelling in college. Everyone is going to say it's all because of quotas.

As someone who works in America I can tell you it's not the left that are bigoted towards African Americans in terms of ability.

dudara

professore wrote: »

Especially the left - painting them as helpless victims unable to do anything for themselves. The soft bigotry of low expectations.

I don’t see them as victims, and I do believe that everyone is responsible for their decisions, but I also believe that the system is stacked against them and it’s harder to overcome. Some of the unarmed black kids who have been shot by police were high school graduates, accepted to college. But they’ll never get their chance to go.

Imagine being a smart black kid excelling in college. Everyone is going to say it's all because of quotas.

the quota system gives him a chance to get to college. What he does when he gets there is his own business. It’s a sad inditement if you look at someone who is excelling and say “quota”.

Taytoland wrote:

Based on what? If America really was terribly racist they would never have elected a black President. Millions of people who voted for Trump voted for Obama.

.

I don’t even know where to start with this one.

Taytoland

dudara wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Especially the left - painting them as helpless victims unable to do anything for themselves. The soft bigotry of low expectations.

I don’t see them as victims, and I do believe that everyone is responsible for their decisions, but I also believe that the system is stacked against them and it’s harder to overcome. Some of the unarmed black kids who have been shot by police were high school graduates, accepted to college. But they’ll never get their chance to go.

Imagine being a smart black kid excelling in college. Everyone is going to say it's all because of quotas.

the quota system gives him a chance to get to college. What he does when he gets there is his own business. It’s a sad inditement if you look at someone who is excelling and say “quota”.

Taytoland wrote:

Based on what? If America really was terribly racist they would never have elected a black President. Millions of people who voted for Trump voted for Obama.

.

I don’t even know where to start with this one.

Because you don't have an answer for it. It's a typical left wing poor black Americans, they can't get anywhere in life mentality, they are being oppressed, evil white man bollocks. The fact is they voted in a black President. You said terribly racist. A terribly racist country would never have done that, not a chance if it was terribly racist.

dudara

Taytoland wrote: »

Because you don't have an answer for it. It's a typical left wing poor black Americans, they can't get anywhere in life mentality, they are being oppressed, evil white man bollocks. The fact is they voted in a black President. You said terribly racist. A terribly racist country would never have done that, not a chance if it was terribly racist.

It couldn’t possibly be that simple, could it?? I elect a black man and all my country’s racism goes away?

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

Based on what? If America really was terribly racist they would never have elected a black President. Millions of people who voted for Trump voted for Obama.

I work in Colorado. I was in a bar over there and someone from the Colorado school of Mines, a prestigious engineering school sat beside me and started talking. After telling him I could easily imagine myself working full time out there he said "you won't get a job out here you're white". He then went on to say how the (insert racial slur here) didn't want to go to college anyway. No one batted an eyelid to this which lead me to believe it was common parlance in Colorado, a fairly liberal state relative to its neighbors.

steddyeddy

Taytoland wrote: »

Because you don't have an answer for it. It's a typical left wing poor black Americans, they can't get anywhere in life mentality, they are being oppressed, evil white man bollocks. The fact is they voted in a black President. You said terribly racist. A terribly racist country would never have done that, not a chance if it was terribly racist.

Except now they voted in a racist.

Taytoland

dudara wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Because you don't have an answer for it. It's a typical left wing poor black Americans, they can't get anywhere in life mentality, they are being oppressed, evil white man bollocks. The fact is they voted in a black President. You said terribly racist. A terribly racist country would never have done that, not a chance if it was terribly racist.

It couldn’t possibly be that simple, could it?? I elect a black man and all my country’s racism goes away?

Racism will always exist in ANY society. It will never go away. So of course America has racism in it, no question. But it's not terribly racist.

meeeeh

Taytoland wrote: »

Because you don't have an answer for it. It's a typical left wing poor black Americans, they can't get anywhere in life mentality, they are being oppressed, evil white man bollocks. The fact is they voted in a black President. You said terribly racist. A terribly racist country would never have done that, not a chance if it was terribly racist.

That's reasoning of 5 year old.

Obama is biracial and was brought up by white mother/grandparents.

Taytoland

meeeeh wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Because you don't have an answer for it. It's a typical left wing poor black Americans, they can't get anywhere in life mentality, they are being oppressed, evil white man bollocks. The fact is they voted in a black President. You said terribly racist. A terribly racist country would never have done that, not a chance if it was terribly racist.

That's reasoning of 5 year old.

Obama is biracial and was brought up by white mother/grandparents.

One minute he is black, the next biracial. Some can't make up their mind.

meeeeh

Taytoland wrote: »

One minute he is black, the next biracial. Some can't make up their mind.

Well it shows you how hard it is for black people in America when voting for eloquent and charismatic man whose father is black (and not from US so not from African American background) and mother white is considered such a great achievement. And to equalise things he was followed by a narcissist who can barely put a sentence together.

Raging_Ninja

meeeeh wrote: »

That's reasoning of 5 year old.

Obama is biracial and was brought up by white mother/grandparents.

Lol.

The loony right say he's from Kenya and the loony left say he's not really black.

steddyeddy

Does anyone take anyone seriously who uses the term "loonie lefties?" (Usually spelled "loony" by the way).

meeeeh

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Lol.

The loonie rights say he's from Kenya and the loonie lefties say he's not really black.

Sorry but if you are unable to understand how people could easier relate to someone with similar background to them then it's pointless to discuss things further. I don't think I am dumb enough.

Raging_Ninja

steddyeddy wrote: »

Does anyone take anyone seriously who uses the term "loonie lefties?" (Usually spelled "loony" by the way.

I kept editing, originally I was using the plural loonies [of the left/right].

If you're nitpicking about typos in an argument it usually means you're losing.

Raging_Ninja

meeeeh wrote: »

Sorry but if you are unable to understand how people could easier relate to someone with similar background to then then it's pointless to discuss things further. I don't think I am dumb enough.

Are you trying to argue that biracial families live an utterly alien lifestyle to purebloods and their examples and experiences must be discounted?

meeeeh

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Are you trying to argue that biracial families live an utterly alien lifestyle to purebloods?

Again not dumb enough.

steddyeddy

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

I kept editing, originally I was using the plural loonies [of the left/right].

If you're nitpicking about typos in an argument it usually means you're losing.

No I'm demonstrating that your remarkable lack of post content is evident in the use of words like loony left.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

And to equalise things he was followed by a narcissist who can barely put a sentence together.

So, Obama was smooth and charming. Oh, I get the dislike for Trump. The man is a muppet... but I really don't get this rush to ignore all the negative aspects of Obama's term.

I am, obviously, against quotas of any type. It's not the way to bring about equality.

steddyeddy

Anyway the largest study yet conducted on social mobility demonstrated that African Americans are less likely to be upward mobile in terms of socio-economic status and less likely to maintain high socio-economic status if obtained.

The Harvard led study is described in this excellent article from the New York Times. I highlighted the bit in bold to show that this disparity in social mobility can't be attributed to lower cognitive ability.

Some interesting points to note:

Black boys raised in America, even in the wealthiest families and living in some of the most well-to-do neighborhoods, still earn less in adulthood than white boys with similar backgrounds, according to a sweeping new study that traced the lives of millions of children.

White boys who grow up rich are likely to remain that way. Black boys raised at the top, however, are more likely to become poor than to stay wealthy in their own adult households.

The disparities that remain also can’t be explained by differences in cognitive ability, an argument made by people who cite racial gaps in test scores that appear for both black boys and girls. If such inherent differences existed by race, “you’ve got to explain to me why these putative ability differences aren’t handicapping women,” said David Grusky, a Stanford sociologist who has reviewed the research.

meeeeh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, Obama was smooth and charming. Oh, I get the dislike for Trump. The man is a muppet... but I really don't get this rush to ignore all the negative aspects of Obama's term.

I didn't comment on Obama policies, he got away with some stuff Trump gets crucified for but you have to admit that Obama is much more accomplished performer with less dumbed down message. I was comparing performance in electoral campaign.

steddyeddy

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Surely that's an argument for increased equity at High School level.

The solution isn't to put these less able and less qualified people into College while of course pushing out others to make room.

Jesus I agree completely but equity at high school or secondary level is argued against fiercely. You'll still find people today that maintain that people who go to the best schools get through to university on individual merit alone. The same used to be said for males in STEM subjects. Until the impact of school and parental environment is recognised then we can't move forward.

Victor

professore wrote: »

Quotas are stupid and racist and/or sexist. We are talking about having a 50/50 gender balance in the Dail.

No, the quotas are for parties to have 30-40% female candidates.

Any one can still run, provided their party provides balance. Any one can still run as an independent.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I didn't comment on Obama policies, he got away with some stuff Trump gets crucified for but you have to admit that Obama is much more accomplished performer with less dumbed down message. I was comparing performance in electoral campaign.

Ahh ok. Fair enough. So superficial differences then.

meeeeh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ahh ok. Fair enough. So superficial differences then.

Well it's kind of hard to compare actual differences since one was in power 8 years and the other one is in power a year and a half. Don't be daft.

Podge_irl

I expect you will find an awful lot of universities will continue to employ affirmative action (which is not the same as quotas). Considering the entrance criteria for US universities extends far beyond academic merit it is hard to define when exactly someone has "earned" a place anyway. If there is a perceived general benefit to the entire community to have a broader student body the university will continue doing as they already are.

Franz Von Peppercorn

steddyeddy wrote: »

Anyway the largest study yet conducted on social mobility demonstrated that African Americans are less likely to be upward mobile in terms of socio-economic status and less likely to maintain high socio-economic status if obtained.

The Harvard led study is described in this excellent article from the New York Times. I highlighted the bit in bold to show that this disparity in social mobility can't be attributed to lower cognitive ability.

Some interesting points to note:

The boldified bits don’t make a lot of sense unless he is saying that women have lower intellects to men.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Podge_irl wrote: »

I expect you will find an awful lot of universities will continue to employ affirmative action (which is not the same as quotas). Considering the entrance criteria for US universities extends far beyond academic merit it is hard to define when exactly someone has "earned" a place anyway. If there is a perceived general benefit to the entire community to have a broader student body the university will continue doing as they already are.

Except that now discriminates against Asians.

This is significant because Harvard (etc) creates elites which tend to be self perpetuating so more Asians in there would allow more Asians in future.

steddyeddy

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The boldified bits don’t make a lot of sense unless he is saying that women have lower intellects to men.

Well he is saying some studies suggest lower scores on IQ tests. Not saying I agree.

“A 2004 meta-analysis by Richard Lynn and Paul Irwing published in 2005 found that the mean IQ of men exceeded that of women by up to 5 points on the Raven's Progressive Matrices test.[3][28] Lynn's findings were debated in a series of articles for Nature.[4][29] Jackson and Philipe Rushton found males aged 17–18 years had average of 3.63 IQ points in excess of their female equivalents on the Scholastic Assessment Test.[30] Irwing (2012) found a 3-point IQ advantage for males in g from subjects aged 16–89 in the United States on the WAIS III test favouring men on the information, arithmetic and symbol search and favoring women on the processing speed.”

Podge_irl

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Except that now discriminates against Asians.

This is significant because Harvard (etc) creates elites which tend to be self perpetuating so more Asians in there would allow more Asians in future.

Entrance to universities in the US has never been purely academic based. It is more an attempt to re-balance their entrance criteria though yes, inevitably, some people will lose out because of it.

I am uneasy about affirmative action etc. Currently I view it as the lesser of several evils though I hope it eventually disappears because it is unnecessary rather than because it is viewed as not needed.

Lux23

Deleted User wrote: »

Diversity quotas are nonsense.

Are you a straight, white man?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Normally, quotas are just awful, but this is America we are talking about. This could very well be a good thing. How it could continue long term, as racism declines, is not something I will take a guess at.

To think that a white person and lack person both have the same privileges and chances of success in life in America, is to be delusional.

ricero

Fair play to Trump. Again and again he is proving the doubters and haters wrong.

suicide_circus

Lux23 wrote: »

Are you a straight, white man?

kill him, KILL HIM!!!!

MikeyTaylor

ricero wrote: »

Fair play to Trump. Again and again he is proving the doubters and haters wrong.

Again and again he is proving that he is better off doing what he does best - business.

Chris_Heilong

"Trump administration to urge colleges to ignore race in admissions"


Good, about time they stop discriminating based on the colour of some ones skin.

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

Are you a straight, white man?

Are you planning a specific attack if the reply is affirmative?

Are you an overweight purple haired feminazi?

meeeeh

JayZeus wrote: »

Are you planning a specific attack if the reply is affirmative?

It would just explain why some here feel so threatened....

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

Are you a straight, white man?

Yes.

meeeeh wrote: »

It would just explain why some here feel so threatened....

(Relating to the quote above)

No it wouldn't. It turns me into a caricature of white man cis privilege and it makes you feel good about attacking me with either sexism, racism, or both.

Am I worried or threatened? No. Do I think it's comical? Yes.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Lux23 wrote: »

Are you a straight, white man?

Is he Irish?

Let’s stop adopting American terminology.

Franz Von Peppercorn

meeeeh wrote: »

It would just explain why some here feel so threatened....

This policy has nothing to do with Ireland, where there are no quotas, and if there were it would (hopefully) be class based.

So why would he be threatened?

2 Scoops

Lux23 wrote: »

Are you a straight, white man?

That's a loaded question.

How many points does this lady get in the victimhood pyramid?

meeeeh

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

This policy has nothing to do with Ireland, where there are no quotas, and if there were it would (hopefully) be class based.

So why would he be threatened?

I don't know but it seems there is outrage here every time some non white or non straight male group gets some sort of perceived privilege. I must assume that because the injustice is deeply felt by some.

2 Scoops

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know but it seems there is outrage here every time some non white or non straight male group gets some sort of perceived privilege. I must assume that because the injustice is deeply felt by some.

There's nothing perceived about it at all. Most people believe the person who's worked the hardest and is the most qualified should get the job.

Would you feel safer in a plane with a highly qualified pilot with decades of experience or someone who only has 1 year of flight experience and got the job because of diversity reasons. Be honest.

meeeeh

2 Scoops wrote: »

There's nothing perceived about it at all. Most people believe the person who's worked the hardest and are the most qualified should get the job.

Would you feel safer in a plane with a highly qualified pilot with decades of experience or someone who only has 1 year of flight experience and got the job because of diversity reasons. Be honest.

Really?! That's the two options? Don't start with silly comparisons.

Btw are you really do naive to think that had work and qualifications are the only criteria that get you the job. Despite all the research that points to other factors like background, connections, looks, address. There were no American bald presidents, it must be that bold people are less qualified.

2 Scoops

meeeeh wrote: »

Really?! That's the two options? Don't start with silly comparisons.

It's not a silly comparison, it's what's happening.

Obama's administration changed the FAA policies and hired air traffic controllers with less experience in the name of diversity. The interview questions were all weighted, the longer a person was unemployed the more points they gained.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-airport-control-tower-is-no-place-for-racial-redress-1528240025