Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

Cheerful Spring

Harika wrote: »

Where is this information coming from and why is this source more reliable than bellingcat?

Guests were interviewed and they described what they saw. One guest who was next door complained to hotel management about the smell of weed and noise.. They probably are misfits but not Russian finest secret agents. If GRU recruiting agents like this they are going to be outplayed by the CIA.

Cheerful Spring

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Bellingcat is an individual named Eliot Higgins. If people want to believe Higgins/Bellingcat that's up to them but he is not impartial.
The Atlantic Council is just one of many anti-Russia 'think-tanks'.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/about/experts/list/eliot-higgins

It basically a fake journalism company set up to peddle anti-Russia hysteria

He funded by the Atlantic council so he has connections to CIA and MI6

mcmoustache

Are the three passport numbers faked?

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Are the three passport numbers faked?

I could not tell you if this a fake passport for certain. I would have concerns about the lettering. It not consistent like you see where it says M/M that two Ms are not alike. Parts of the letters and numbers have faded too. For 2016 passport it should be in better condition. That my initial impression a passport expert probably notice more issues then I would.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I could not tell you if this a fake passport for certain. I would have concerns about the lettering. It not consistent like you see where it says M/M that two Ms are not alike. Parts of the letters and numbers have faded too. For 2016 passport it should be in better condition. That my initial impression a passport expert probably notice more issues then I would.

Is USSR over the expiry date common? Honestly, I don't know. However, it's not unusual for fake passports of spies to be published.

Dohnjoe

As explained previously, certain people will attack the emerging facts of this story endlessly because it contradicts certain world views or beliefs they hold

Asking for the third time, provide your theories, with credible evidence as to what really happened (they will ignore this or provide faint/vague answers. Rinse/repeat)

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Is USSR over the expiry date common? Honestly, I don't know. However, it's not unusual for fake passports of spies to be published.

There is a genuine Russian passport published on this website.

https://informnapalm.org/en/russian-mp-zatulin-fixes-passport-issues-for-dpr-militants-documents/

For me, the passport you posted looks fake compared the one published in the link, but I, not an expert.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I could not tell you if this a fake passport for certain. I would have concerns about the lettering. It not consistent like you see where it says M/M that two Ms are not alike. Parts of the letters and numbers have faded too. For 2016 passport it should be in better condition. That my initial impression a passport expert probably notice more issues then I would.

the two Ms are not alike because it is photo of a page that is not flat. there are creases on the page that are distorting it.

Elmer Blooker

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Guests were interviewed and they described what they saw. One guest who was next door complained to hotel management about the smell of weed and noise.. They probably are misfits but not Russian finest secret agents. If GRU recruiting agents like this they are going to be outplayed by the CIA.

Hardly. Just look at the two of them, they would have to look like the stereotyped bad guy villains from some crappy Hollywood 'action' movie (probably with Liam Neeson in it!) They could only have travelled to England to carry out a hit looking like ....... well two Hollywood bad guy hit men!
They were never going to look like ordinary business men types in suits.

mcmoustache

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Hardly. Just look at the two of them, they would have to look like the stereotyped bad guy villains from some crappy Hollywood 'action' movie (probably with Liam Neeson in it!) They could only have travelled to England to carry out a hit looking like ....... well two Hollywood bad guy hit men!
They were never going to look like ordinary business men types in suits.

Good effort.

cnocbui

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Hardly. Just look at the two of them, they would have to look like the stereotyped bad guy villains from some crappy Hollywood 'action' movie (probably with Liam Neeson in it!) They could only have travelled to England to carry out a hit looking like ....... well two Hollywood bad guy hit men!
They were never going to look like ordinary business men types in suits.

I can see that you are a master and genius of logic: We found two suspects on CCTV, their movements were suspicious and provided opportunity, we found traces of novichok in their hotel room. We conclude that they should not be made suspects because they fit the visual and physical profile of a Russian 'asset' one could expect in a typical Hollywood movie. We therefore conclude that the evidence should be disregarded in favour of the unlikely idea that Hollywood would have a clue as to what a Russian field asset might look like.

Your position is logically unassailable and faultless (snigger.)

Billy86

I have never, ever -even on all of AH- seen this level of pathetic desperation from one side of an argument. The last few pages really did hit a new low, but "they like look Russian spies so of course that makes it impossible for them to be Russian spies" really was the icing on the "I've got nothing left to support my argument" cake.

Dohnjoe

Billy86 wrote: »

I have never, ever -even on all of AH- seen this level of pathetic desperation from one side of an argument. The last few pages really did hit a new low, but "they like look Russian spies so of course that makes it impossible for them to be Russian spies" really was the icing on the "I've got nothing left to support my argument" cake.

The only way some people have of dealing with facts that contradict their faulty or extreme world views is to attack them. Even if the reasoning they are using is ridiculous - in their minds they are diluting the debate. They are muddying the waters, which allows them to call in question all facts.

Psychologists and researchers have repeatedly shown that people with this frame of mind are more likely to become even more entrenched in their views when presented with solid evidence and facts.

Researchers have also shown that people like this have difficulty sorting the credibility of information - an expert can be a credible as a layperson to them, one propaganda outlet is "as credible" as e.g. the consensus of 30 respected outlets

Even the basic act of engaging in debate with them, no matter how insane their theories are - has been shown to validate their theories more in their eyes

These types of people are free to post as much as they want (as long as they stay within the guidelines) so they are free to batter any subject to death with their nonsense (until a mod steps in)

Billy86

It is telling that the pictures of the two have been out for weeks, yet it is the day after even more Co pletely damming evidence to heir story comes out that the two lads suddenly "look too much like Russia spies to be Russian spies".

Even if the two lads just outright admitted it over the weekend, we all know for 100% certainty that the usual suspects on here would be claiming they were drugged into admitting as much, that the British authorities threatened their families all the way from the UK, that they are super-reverse-double -plants, or some other such nonsense. It's beyond bizarre but oddly entertaining in it own right.

batgoat

Billy86 wrote: »

I have never, ever -even on all of AH- seen this level of pathetic desperation from one side of an argument. The last few pages really did hit a new low, but "they like look Russian spies so of course that makes it impossible for them to be Russian spies" really was the icing on the "I've got nothing left to support my argument" cake.

You also have the forgery experts who would likely claim any passports from an act of terror to be forgeries.

Cheerful Spring

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Hardly. Just look at the two of them, they would have to look like the stereotyped bad guy villains from some crappy Hollywood 'action' movie (probably with Liam Neeson in it!) They could only have travelled to England to carry out a hit looking like ....... well two Hollywood bad guy hit men!
They were never going to look like ordinary business men types in suits.

They definitely Russian. And they travelling on real passports. Bellingcat claims the passport is fake because they could find a record of them prior to 2009. Well, there is a reason for that Russia started issuing brand new biometric passports to its citizens in the years between 2007 to 2009. The computer system was being updated to reflect the new registry. Bellingcat was overlooking this in their analysis.

They could be involved in poisoning Skipral but I have seen no hard evidence they were sent there by Putin or Russian intelligence agencies. They acted very unprofessionally for guys on a state mission. They did not keep a low profile they partied with drugs and hooker and ranted at other guests in a London hotel a day before travelling to Salisbury. Police could have got called and the mission would be blown. To be honest I would not be surprised if they are hired goons send by some anti-Putin opponent to kill Skipral or maybe they just Two Russians who came to England to have fun and do some travelling?

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They definitely Russian. And they travelling on real passports. Bellingcat claims the passport is fake because they could find a record of them prior to 2009. Well, there is a reason for that Russia started issuing brand new biometric passports to its citizens in the years between 2007 to 2009. The computer system was being updated to reflect the new registry. Bellingcat was overlooking this in their analysis.

They could be involved in poisoning Skipral but I have seen no hard evidence they were sent there by Putin or Russian intelligence agencies. They acted very unprofessionally for guys on a state mission. They did not keep a low profile they partied with drugs and hooker and ranted at other guests in a London hotel a day before travelling to Salisbury. Police could have got called and the mission would be blown. To be honest I would not be surprised if they are hired goons send by some anti-Putin opponent to kill Skipral or maybe they just Two Russians who came to England to have fun and do some travelling?

Fake as in the identities in the passports are fake not that the passports are fake.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They definitely Russian. And they travelling on real passports. Bellingcat claims the passport is fake because they could find a record of them prior to 2009. Well, there is a reason for that Russia started issuing brand new biometric passports to its citizens in the years between 2007 to 2009. The computer system was being updated to reflect the new registry. Bellingcat was overlooking this in their analysis.

They could be involved in poisoning Skipral but I have seen no hard evidence they were sent there by Putin or Russian intelligence agencies. They acted very unprofessionally for guys on a state mission. They did not keep a low profile they partied with drugs and hooker and ranted at other guests in a London hotel a day before travelling to Salisbury. Police could have got called and the mission would be blown. To be honest I would not be surprised if they are hired goons send by some anti-Putin opponent to kill Skipral or maybe they just Two Russians who came to England to have fun and do some travelling?

Russia is a shíthole with an economy the size of Italy and a population poorer than Poland. You're thinking that the GRU are competent after the country has been robbed by Putin and his oligarchs. There is a reason that you are here and not in Russia. The Russian system doesn't have the money to sustain itself. Russia is incompetent right now unless they're fighting satellite states who are even more incompetent.


EDIT:
Just out of curiosity, where did you learn about the prostitutes? It's not that I don't already know. I just want you to let everyone here know. It will show that you don't have the same skepticism that you have displayed here when it comes to information that you wish to believe to be true.

mcmoustache

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Fake as in the identities in the passports are fake not that the passports are fake.

It's just a coincidence that the passports of recently caught spies were in sequence, don't you know.

Elmer Blooker

mcmoustache wrote: »

Russia is a shole with an economy the size of Italy and a population poorer than Poland. You're thinking that the GRU are competent after the country has been robbed by Putin and his oligarchs. There is a reason that you are here and not in Russia. The Russian system doesn't have the money to sustain itself. Russia is incompetent right now unless they're fighting satellite states who are even more incompetent.

Interesting that this "****hole" justifies a US trillion dollar military budget because it is a "threat". Perhaps you could explain that because I can't.
The looting of Russia took place under Yeltsin, google "yanks to the rescue" if you want to know how interference in foreign elections is really done.
Whatever happened to that "dirty" Russian money in the City of London, we're not hearing much about it these days are we?

mcmoustache

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Whatever happened to that "dirty" Russian money in the City of London, we're not hearing much about it these days are we?

It's still there and that's my point. No wealthy person keeps their money in roubles.

mcmoustache

"Boshirov" identified as Colonel Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga of the GRU.

Over the course of his assignment to the 14th Spetsnaz Brigade, Colonel Chepiga was deployed three times to Chechnya. The specific operations he was involved in are not known; however, a website of a far-eastern branch of a state-run military volunteer organization reports that he received over 20 military awards in the course of his service.

Elmer Blooker

I'm watching BBC News 24 now and I see Mr Higgins from Leicester is being used as a credible "source" yet again.

Dohnjoe

mcmoustache wrote: »

"Boshirov" identified as Colonel Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga of the GRU.

"Those three men look nothing alike, Bellingcat is fake news, the Kremlin would NEVER release false information, this is an inside job! and so what anyway, look at Iraq, remember operation Northwoods?! yeah but no but yeah"

- The Vicky Pollards

mcmoustache

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I'm watching BBC News 24 now and I see Mr Higgins from Leicester is being used as a credible "source" yet again.

Lame. The methodology is described in the article and Higgins isn't the source. Chepiga has a stellar reputation and his name is all over Russian state websites. Chepiga is a real person in the GRU, according to the Russians and the researchers behind the article obtained Chepiga's passport picture from 2003.

But sure, you can poo-poo this all you want but you've demonstrated that you have zero credibility in the matter.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

"Boshirov" identified as Colonel Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga of the GRU.

Pictures are weird. The young fella looks like he has a different nose, cheekbones and his jawline forehead look different. Maybe age changed is facial shape? Could that be just someone that kind looks like him?

Look at the third image, the nose shape is very different from the first image of the young person.

batgoat

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Pictures are weird. The young fella looks like he has a different nose, cheekbones and his jawline forehead look different. Maybe age changed is facial shape? Could that be just someone that kind looks like him?

Look at the third image, the nose shape is very different from the first image of the young person.

Shock horror of you giving a facial analysis that concludes different people.

Cheerful Spring

batgoat wrote: »

Shock horror of you giving a facial analysis that concludes different people.

Young guy looks to be a totally different person. The facial structure does not match.

batgoat

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Young guy looks to be a totally different person. The facial structure does not match.

The initial photo is fifteen years old or thereabouts. If I showed a person a photo of me that's even ten years old, I look incredibly different. You'd likely conclude my facial structure is entirely different so different person... :pac: They look like the same guy to me, just older.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Young guy looks to be a totally different person. The facial structure does not match.

His nose looks broken in the first pic. broken noses can be fixed. The eyes, chin and ears are identical. It is the same person.

uncleoswald

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Young guy looks to be a totally different person. The facial structure does not match.

Just looks like the first photo was taken from a slightly lower angle, otherwise looks like the same person.

But look, Russia can just clear this whole thing up by having Colonel Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga come out and be interviewed along with the poor chap who's only crime was wanting to marvel at Britain's tallest spire.

Cheerful Spring

uncleoswald wrote: »

Just looks like the first photo was taken from a slightly lower angle, otherwise looks like the same person.

But look, Russia can just clear this whole thing up by having Colonel Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga come out and be interviewed along with the poor chap who's only crime was wanting to marvel at Britain's tallest spire.

They found a young man who served with Spetsnaz some time ago in the past.

Bellingcat has this picture, on their site, it looks old.


The guy at the far right end has an identical nose to guy in the first image. I suspect he is Anatoliy Chepiga? When this picture was taken would reveal more about his age now.

mcmoustache

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

His nose looks broken in the first pic. broken noses can be fixed. The eyes, chin and ears are identical. It is the same person.

Those eyebrows and brow ridge are quite distinctive. What are the odds that the person they thought it was would wind up looking so similar to him? It's clear as day.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Pictures are weird.

CALLED IT

prinzeugen

RT are not saying much. Think the Russians should just sit down and keep quiet as they are a laughing stock now.

On the other hand, I cannot wait to hear the Kremlin's excuse for this. Sure we have the foil hats shouting "fake", but I would hope they will come out with some new material to give us a laugh.

Dohnjoe

The Kremlin, and subsequently Russian media can just ignore it. Less than 5% of the country speak English, few get their source of news from sources outside Russia. It can literally be swept under the rug with next to zero repercussions for Moscow. Or they can choose to attack it with more of the usual tactics

Franz Von Peppercorn

Dohnjoe wrote: »

"Those three men look nothing alike, Bellingcat is fake news, the Kremlin would NEVER release false information, this is an inside job! and so what anyway, look at Iraq, remember operation Northwoods?! yeah but no but yeah"

- The Vicky Pollards

Nobody ever conspires anywhere in your imagination. It’s the best of all possible worlds and M15 and the CIA and the Mossad are basically clubs for an old boys network to hand about and engage in cake sales and what not.

Dohnjoe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Nobody ever conspires anywhere in your imagination.

What are you talking about? the subject of this whole debate is a state conspiracy to kill an ex-spy on foreign soil with a nerve agent

It doesn't get much more conspiracy than that

mcmoustache

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Nobody ever conspires anywhere in your imagination. It’s the best of all possible worlds and M15 and the CIA and the Mossad are basically clubs for an old boys network to hand about and engage in cake sales and what not.

Are you saying that the pictures are fake or something?

Dohnjoe

mcmoustache wrote: »

Are you saying that the pictures are fake or something?

There are many people who are critical of certain leaders/administrations, that's perfectly natural. However there are individuals who (idiotically) don't like an entire country and it's history (and by extension it's allies) so by proxy feel they must support opposing leaders

Facts/evidence that interfere with that type of faulty world view are treated with contempt and disdain. Rinse, repeat.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Dohnjoe wrote: »

What are you talking about? the subject of this whole debate is a state conspiracy to kill an ex-spy on foreign soil with a nerve agent

It doesn't get much more conspiracy than that

Well yes. That’s true. I should have been clearer: you don’t believe in any conspiracy theory by “your side”. Of course the Russians hacked the US elections with magic tweets, hacked the internet free electronic voting machines, and have been running Trump as a spy since his birth.

mcmoustache

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Of course the Russians hacked the US elections with magic tweets, hacked the internet free electronic voting machines, and have been running Trump as a spy since his birth.

Nice strawman you whatabouted there. Do you think the pics are fake?

Dohnjoe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Of course the Russians hacked the US elections with magic tweets

That's nice. This thread is about the Salisbury poisoning, in the UK, last I checked.

Billy86

And before someone tries to chip in with the lie currently circulating that facial recognition software says that they're different people, here's a link to Microsoft's own recognition software for people to check for themselves: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/cognitive-services/face/

Photo 1: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1UiX3q-R3v5AEfZXnRQ6QOxlwntra_eb0xIG_5lTKqvRVmBKP
Photo 2: https://st.ilfattoquotidiano.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/27/ED-img14611212.jpg

Dohnjoe

Once the "it's someone else" avenue is exhausted and debunked they will move onto attacking the source - in this case Bellingcat

It will "clearly be a Western propaganda cover masquerading as an investigative outfit"

Billy86

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Once the "it's someone else" avenue is exhausted and debunked they will move onto attacking the source - in this case Bellingcat

It will "clearly be a Western propaganda cover masquerading as an investigative outfit"

We already got there last week, maybe about 15 posts back.

seamus

At this stage I'm making the assumption that anyone who tries to keep running with the Russian line on this, is not worth responding to.

I've no issue considering alternative counter-conspiracies provided that they're rooted in some level of reality and have a plausible narrative.

Constant denial with nothing to back it up is the hallmark of someone who is either wilfully on a wind-up, or immune to facts.

Franz Von Peppercorn

seamus wrote: »

At this stage I'm making the assumption that anyone who tries to keep running with the Russian line on this, is not worth responding to.

I've no issue considering alternative counter-conspiracies provided that they're rooted in some level of reality and have a plausible narrative.

Constant denial with nothing to back it up is the hallmark of someone who is either wilfully on a wind-up, or immune to facts.

On this particular case (and surprisingly enough) there seems to be a fair amount of evidence for Russian involvement. Fairly dumb actions by the Russians if so.

I tend however, whenever there’s a war on or one planned, to err on the side of caution.

Cheerful Spring

Billy86 wrote: »

And before someone tries to chip in with the lie currently circulating that facial recognition software says that they're different people, here's a link to Microsoft's own recognition software for people to check for themselves: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/cognitive-services/face/

Photo 1: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1UiX3q-R3v5AEfZXnRQ6QOxlwntra_eb0xIG_5lTKqvRVmBKP
Photo 2: https://st.ilfattoquotidiano.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/27/ED-img14611212.jpg

Nobody on here since image 2 was not the same person in image 3. I clearly said image one looks different. Try that image and see what the result is?

Billy86

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Nobody on here since image 2 was not the same person in image 3. I clearly said image one looks different. Try that image and see what the result is?

Those are the two photos from image 2 and image 3. When we add the third photo, the facial recognition software is even more sure it is the same person.



And then just for the sake of entertainment, I cross referenced with screenshots from their sham interview: