Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

seamus

Well clearly, Microsoft has hacked their system to intercept all of these facial recognition requests when they come in, and respond with a sham figure.

Even if you don't believe these guys are guilty, you would have to admit that the "other" person in the "younger" photos is dead ringer for them.

To look at those photos and claim they're not the same person, means you're either legally blind or wilfully ignoring reality. I mean, "They're altered photos" or "That's a picture of someone who looks like them" is more plausible than, "They look nothing alike".

Dohnjoe

seamus wrote: »

wilfully ignoring reality

It's this one I assure you

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Nobody on here since image 2 was not the same person in image 3. I clearly said image one looks different. Try that image and see what the result is?

I'll check image 1 and Image 2 later.

Image 1 is Chepiga and Image 2 is young Boshirov. We need to see if these match.

EDIT:

It's an even closer match:

https://e3.365dm.com/18/09/1096x616/skynews-ruslan-boshirov-anatoliy-chepiga_4435050.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180927101234

Cheerful Spring

Billy86 wrote: »

Those are the two photos from image 2 and image 3. When we add the third photo, the facial recognition software is even more sure it is the same person.



And then just for the sake of entertainment, I cross referenced with screenshots from their sham interview:

Microsoft is only giving 5 and 6 scores out of 10. Reading up on this software. It works by looking for similarities between the two faces. That can return a positive reading if two people look alike. Clearly, face in image 1 and 2 have similarities.

The nose in image 1 looks different from image 2. But if he is a GRU spy there is a possibility he had some work done on his face to hide who he was?

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'll check image 1 and Image 2 later.

Image 1 is Chepiga and Image 2 is young Boshirov. We need to see if these match.

EDIT:

It's an even closer match:

https://e3.365dm.com/18/09/1096x616/skynews-ruslan-boshirov-anatoliy-chepiga_4435050.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180927101234

Does Bellingcat say where they found this photograph? What it from a passport?

Cheerful Spring

seamus wrote: »

Well clearly, Microsoft has hacked their system to intercept all of these facial recognition requests when they come in, and respond with a sham figure.

Even if you don't believe these guys are guilty, you would have to admit that the "other" person in the "younger" photos is dead ringer for them.

To look at those photos and claim they're not the same person, means you're either legally blind or wilfully ignoring reality. I mean, "They're altered photos" or "That's a picture of someone who looks like them" is more plausible than, "They look nothing alike".

There is a striking resemblance. I would say it's a dead ringer for him. If that is Boshirov he had some work done on his face. He's about 24 in that first image.

The second image was taken in 2009, so his about 30. Borisov is 39 in the third image. I would say he not too young to be a colonel.

Bellingcat has to provide better proof though Boshirov is “Colonel Chepiga” There could be a guy who just looks like him. The British could ask to see Col Chepiga in person? If the Russians say no then that pretty much confirms both men are the same person.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Does Bellingcat say where they found this photograph? What it from a passport?

Yes. From around 2003.

To validate the hypothesis that Chepiga is Skripal poisoning suspect “Boshirov,” Bellingcat and The Insider obtained extracts from the passport file of Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga – the man born on 5th April 1978 – from two separate sources with access to databases dated prior to 2014, .

The passport file contained a photograph – dated approximately in 2003, when this passport was obtained – that strongly resembled a younger “Boshirov” as seen in passport photos released by the UK police, with an even stronger resemblance to the cover identity passport photo published in our previous publication on the Skripal suspects.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Yes. From around 2003.

Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga exists. So dead or alive someone has to know him. All this shows is there is a guy who served in the Russian Spetsnaz in Chechnya. He resembles Borisov.

I think the Briitish government or Scotland yard should ask to see him in person to interview him. If Russian reacts negatively to this request then you know for certain they are the same person.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga exists. So dead or live someone has to know him. All this shows is there is a guy who served in the Russian Spetsnaz in Chechnya. He resembles Borisov.

I think the Briitish government or Scotland yard should ask to see him in person to interview him. If Russian reacts negatively to this request then you know for certain they are the same person.

Resembles??? If it is not him it is his twin.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Resembles??? If it is not him it is his twin.

Do you think Putin is time travelling? People who served in the Russian army in the past who looked him.




People can lookalike.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Do you think Putin is time travelling? People who served in the Russian army in the past who looked him.




People can lookalike.

they are 3 similar but clearly different people. not the same as 3 photos of the same person at different ages.I also find it odd that you had those pictures so readily to hand. RT must be on the ball.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they are 3 similar but clearly different people. not the same as 3 photos of the same person at different ages.

They have a similar appearance to Putin.

You clearly see some features of the guy in the first image differ.

Brow, forehead and nose are not the same.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They have a similar appearance to Putin.

You clearly see some features of the guy in the first image differ.

Brow, forehead and nose are not the same.

similar but clearly different. just like i said.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

similar but clearly different. just like i said.

You might be able to see what I mean image provided.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You might be able to see what I mean image provided.

no that still looks like 3 pics of the same guy at different ages.

Duzzie

It would be interesting to see the 3 "putin" photos put through the facial recognition, that is assuming that they arent all real putin photos that have been photo shopped

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

no that still looks like 3 pics of the same guy at different ages.

Glabella looks wider in the first image. The second and third image does match up.

Alun

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You might be able to see what I mean image provided.

Facial recognition software doesn't work on vague hunches as to what looks right, it works on biometrics. Distance between eyes, distance from brow line to top of nose, length and width of nose etc. etc. These things don't change significantly with age.


Google Photos also does facial recognition and groups faces of the same person together. It's quite uncanny how much of an age range it can cover. I'm 61 now but it still recognises picture of me when I was in my tens and early twenties as me.

Cheerful Spring

Alun wrote: »

Facial recognition software doesn't work on vague hunches as to what looks right, it works on biometrics. Distance between eyes, distance from brow line to top of nose, length and width of nose etc. etc. These things don't change significantly with age.


Google Photos also does facial recognition and groups faces of the same person together. It's quite uncanny how much of an age range it can cover. I'm 61 now but it still recognises picture of me when I was in my tens and early twenties as me.

We don't have to disagree about this anyways. Bellingcat has released a name so Scotland yard can now request an interview with this man. There no point arguing over this when it can be verified. Russian reaction will reveal the truth.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Glabella looks wider in the first image. The second and third image does match up.

Its funny how you are a facial recognition expert all of a sudden. I think i'll go with the actual experts who wrote the microsoft software thanks.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Microsoft is only giving 5 and 6 scores out of 10. Reading up on this software.

You're confusing the confidence score with a measure of probability. That's not what it is.

The comparison between young "Boshirov" and Chepiga has a score of around .62. Comparing Keanu Reeves with other Keanu Reeves gives similar scores.

mcmoustache

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Its funny how you are a facial recognition expert all of a sudden. I think i'll go with the actual experts who wrote the microsoft software thanks.

You're forgetting toxicologist.

ohnonotgmail

Billy86 wrote: »

And before someone tries to chip in with the lie currently circulating that facial recognition software says that they're different people, here's a link to Microsoft's own recognition software for people to check for themselves: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/cognitive-services/face/

Photo 1: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1UiX3q-R3v5AEfZXnRQ6QOxlwntra_eb0xIG_5lTKqvRVmBKP
Photo 2: https://st.ilfattoquotidiano.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/27/ED-img14611212.jpg

I ran the two images through another facial recognition software called Kairos and that also gave it as a match.

https://www.kairos.com/demos

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

You're confusing the confidence score with a measure of probability. That's not what it is.

The comparison between young "Boshirov" and Chepiga has a score of around .62. Comparing Keanu Reeves with other Keanu Reeves gives similar scores.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/boshirov-is-probably-not-chepiga-but-he-is-also-not-boshirov/

Craig has just used Betaface.com, which runs industry standard software, and results are very different. It shows up the things I highlighted are different.

Dohnjoe

mcmoustache wrote: »

You're forgetting toxicologist.

Air crash investigator, forensic expert, structural engineer, chemist.. it's a lengthy list

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/boshirov-is-probably-not-chepiga-but-he-is-also-not-boshirov/

Craig has just used Betaface.com, which runs industry standard software, and results are very different. It shows up the things I highlighted are different.

Outside of Craig Murray being a known liar when it comes to everything Russia, are you not suspicious that he compared young Chepiga with old "Boshirov"?

Cheerful Spring

Craig also said this.

Professor Dame Sue Black of the University of Dundee is the world’s leading expert in facial forensic reconstruction. I once spent a fascinating lunch sitting next to her, while I was Rector. I shall contact her for her view on whether the guy on the left is the same person, and if she is kind enough to give me an opinion, I shall pass it on to you unadulterated.

Harika

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Craig also said this.

Professor Dame Sue Black of the University of Dundee is the world’s leading expert in facial forensic reconstruction. I once spent a fascinating lunch sitting next to her, while I was Rector. I shall contact her for her view on whether the guy on the left is the same person, and if she is kind enough to give me an opinion, I shall pass it on to you unadulterated.

Let me guess the outcome of that:

Not the same person

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/boshirov-is-probably-not-chepiga-but-he-is-also-not-boshirov/

Craig has just used Betaface.com, which runs industry standard software, and results are very different. It shows up the things I highlighted are different.

FYI Craig Murray is a known denialist who runs a blog. A quick google will find all sorts of other conspiracy types desperately trying any method or software to get the faces not to match

It doesn't matter if the information is as plain as the nose on your face (no pun intended), cranks and denialists and Putinbots will find some way to deny it

The art of internet denialism - where there's a will there's a way. Perfectly demonstrated.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Outside of Craig Murray being a known liar when it comes to everything Russia, are you not suspicious that he compared young Chepiga with old "Boshirov"?

Your opinion. I hope that women contact him back and give him an answer. If she says it him then its him. If it not him will you accept her opinion?

Cheerful Spring

Harika wrote: »

Let me guess the outcome of that:

Not the same person

So you just discount an expert opinion. She could come back and say it's him, you accept it then

cnocbui

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Your opinion. I hope that women contact him back and give him an answer. If she says it him then its him. If it not him will you accept her opinion?

If she says it is him, will you?

My bet is she won't reply.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

FYI Craig Murray is a known denialist who runs a blog. A quick google will find all sorts of other conspiracy types desperately trying any method or software to get the faces not to match

It doesn't matter if the information is as plain as the nose on your face (no pun intended), cranks and denialists and Putinbots will find some way to deny it

The art of internet denialism - where there's a will there's a way. Perfectly demonstrated.

Dohnjoe you think the Syrian rebels are freedom fighters that your world belief.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

So you just discount an expert opinion. She could come back and say it's him, you accept it then

you seem quite happy to discount the results of two separate pieces of facial recognition software. Software than cannot be biased as it has no idea who the people actually are.

Cheerful Spring

cnocbui wrote: »

If she says it is him, will you?

Yes.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Yes.

why trust her and not two independent pieces of software?

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I hope that women contact him back and give him an answer. If she says it him then its him. If it not him will you accept her opinion?

Craig is as valid as source as you are. Both are internet detectives and denialists

Harika

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

So you just discount an expert opinion. She could come back and say it's him, you accept it then

I won't discard her, I predict the outcome of that phone call, email or face2face meeting. I do this for fun, especially in the F1 forum. I have a 50% chance of getting it right, that's why I put it under the spoiler tag to not influence the outcome.
But please go ahead, if you contact her, there is then a chance to check your backstory that you contacted her. Snail mail, email or phone call.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Craig is as valid as source as you are. Both are internet detectives and denialists

We don't think head choppers are freedom fighters. You do.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why trust her and not two independent pieces of software?

Why not trust her? Craig just happened to meet her an expert at a dinner one time. She has no agenda.

The Software you have used only noticed similarities between photos. It is that advanced to distinguish distinct features of the face? It's free software how good can it be?

If the expert comes back and says yes that's the same person, that's good enough for me.

Billy86

Duzzie wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the 3 "putin" photos put through the facial recognition, that is assuming that they arent all real putin photos that have been photo shopped

Not all that well, it says they are three separate people.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Why not trust her? Craig just happened to meet her an expert at a dinner one time. She has no agenda.

The Software you have used only noticed similarities between photos. It is that advanced to distinguish distinct features of the face? It's free software how good can it be?

If the expert comes back and says yes that's the same person, that's good enough for me.

The software does the same thing she will. Somehow you are now an expert on the merits of facial recognition software. Is there anything you are not an expert on?

Billy86

Also, regarding differences in eyes... all three of these pictures are of Vladimir Putin.

ohnonotgmail

Billy86 wrote: »

Not all that well, it says they are three separate people.

a blind man could have told you that.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We don't think head choppers are freedom fighters. You do.

Bizarre response

As predicted you are attempting to deny this is the same person. It's no different from blogger Craig Murray's view. So, as "sources", you are both as valid and credible as each other

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Bizarre response

As predicted you are attempting to deny this is the same person. It's no different from blogger Craig Murray's view. So, as "sources", you are both as valid and credible as each other

It not bizarre because this how you and others guys on here view events in the world.

When you think ISIS and AL Nusra and FSA are freedom fighters. You always going to see Russia and its allies as bad guys.

Duzzie

Billy86 wrote: »

Not all that well, it says they are three separate people.

Seems to show that the software is more able to spot matches / differences than internet investigators. I buy the billingcat narrative.

Billy86

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

a blind man could have told you that.

Oh I know of course, I'm just finding this app pretty cool and genuinely wanted to see what percentage it landed on.

mcmoustache

Duzzie wrote: »

Seems to show that the software is more able to spot matches / differences than internet investigators. I buy the billingcat narrative.

It's important to note that they didn't just go looking for images that looked similar to "Boshirov".

They identified Chepiga first based on other documents and then they went looking for a picture. When they found the picture, low and behold, it turned out to be so similar that computers thought it was the same guy.

Cheerful here is behaving as if the only evidence is a similar photo because that's what all the Russian disinformation websites are obsessing themselves with today.

Billy86

Duzzie wrote: »

Seems to show that the software is more able to spot matches / differences than internet investigators. I buy the billingcat narrative.

Yeah it does the science thing and the stuff happens and the answer comes out. This is my expert input.