Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

Dohnjoe

Gatling wrote: »

NATO is what ,

Helping Ukraine defend itself from Russia ,you know the Russian military forces occupying parts of Ukraine illegally ,who invited russia into Ukraine?
The same russians who shot down flight MH17 killing all onboard .

You talk some awful nonsense

Western establishment "evil"
Therefore Russia good

This is the level we are dealing with here

These types of individuals who have this simplistic and highly flawed black/white world view are simply unable to process information which contradicts it

Again, Putin could stand in the centre of Red Square, with a gun, on camera, shoot someone in the head and they would defend him, why? because "look what the yanks did in Vietnam, they killed far more people, yadda yadda". It all comes back to that - they don't deny it either

Elmer Blooker

mcmoustache wrote: »

Yes. The source is MIVD director Onno Eichelsheim. Your efforts here are very transparent.

When the men were intercepted they tried to destroy one of the mobile phones they were carrying, Maj Gen Eichelsheim said.

Utter BS! A holder of a diplomatic passport cannot be searched (Vienna Convention) all this guy had to do was put his phone in his pocket.
If a holder of a diplomatic passport is expelled from a country they are given say 24-48 hours to get out, the conspiracy theory that they "forgot" their luggage is also BS.

wexie

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

If a holder of a diplomatic passport is expelled from a country they are given say 24-48 hours to get out, the conspiracy theory that they "forgot" their luggage is also BS.

I'm not so sure that's the case. A diplomatic passport doesn't automatically grant you diplomatic immunity. Being an accredited (by the host country) diplomat grants you diplomatic immunity.

But I could be wrong on that.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

In saying all that, the image on the wall is not likely fake. It was posted on Russian websites? Of course, hackers could have manipulated the photos, but that likely would have got spotted and images would have got pulled.

It's definitely interesting Russia is denying Chepiga exists. If he got this award for things he did in Ukraine. I can see now why he would target Skipral. Skipral was feeding information to Ukranian intelligence. This is just speculation on my part but if Skipral was providing information that was harming Russians in Ukraine he would be a target for the GRU.

I posted these links earlier. These are from the academy where Chepiga trained and hosted on official Russian websites:

Here is the wall with Chepiga on it on it - http://dvoku.mil.ru/Multimedia/photo/list/46564/.

Here is his name listed on the academy's website - http://www.dvocu.ru/index/alleja_geroev/0-36

Chepiga exists and is in the GRU, according to the Russian military. Putin's spokesman was lying.

mcmoustache

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Utter BS! A holder of a diplomatic passport cannot be searched (Vienna Convention) all this guy had to do was put his phone in his pocket.
If a holder of a diplomatic passport is expelled from a country they are given say 24-48 hours to get out, the conspiracy theory that they "forgot" their luggage is also BS.

I guess Putin should lodge a formal complaint in that case.

Dohnjoe

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Utter BS!

This is standard Alex Jones fare, breathlessly expressing personal incredulity at every possible detail in a vain attempt to discredit the event without explaining what really happened

Again, care to explain what really happened?

These men were on holiday together? (I heard the Hague, especially about the OPCW building is lovely in the spring)

Why doesn't the Kremlin have an explanation for this yet? (I'm refreshing RT, doesn't seem to be anything yet)

wexie

wexie wrote: »

I'm not so sure that's the case. A diplomatic passport doesn't automatically grant you diplomatic immunity. Being an accredited (by the host country) diplomat grants you diplomatic immunity.

But I could be wrong on that.

From BBC today :

Even though the men were travelling on diplomatic passports, they could still have been arrested because they were not accredited diplomats in the Netherlands.

So questions have been asked about the decision to send the suspects home immediately, rather than detain them

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45758316

mcmoustache

I guess that takes care of the "It's not fair that they were arrested for criminal behaviour because of the Vienna Convention" narrative that's being pushed. That said, I'm impressed at how quickly it went from "lol, no proof" to "you think they would be so sloppy?" and then to "they should have been allowed to get away with it".

Dohnjoe

"There's no way that Russian operatives would have a taxi stub in their possession, I watch a lot of spy movies and that's never happened, so the whole story is bull****!!"

Is that how this personal incredulity thing works?

weisses

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

US and UK are not involved in international ****ery as you put it? Arming jihadists in Syria? Russia is involved in a proxy war with the West. Who invited the UK AND US into Syria? Nato is supplying Ukraine with arms to kill Russians. It, not just one side doing all bad.

Blowback is not that surprising.

They are all involved in doing these things.

The issue is the pathetic attempts to clear Russia from this kind of behavior.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

I posted these links earlier. These are from the academy where Chepiga trained and hosted on official Russian websites:

Here is the wall with Chepiga on it on it - http://dvoku.mil.ru/Multimedia/photo/list/46564/.

Here is his name listed on the academy's website - http://www.dvocu.ru/index/alleja_geroev/0-36

Chepiga exists and is in the GRU, according to the Russian military. Putin's spokesman was lying.

Obviously here when Russia is claiming they could find any record of him they are covering up. So right now it looks like Boshirov is Chepiga. That can only change if Russia reveals another man to be Chepiga?

Skipral providing Intelligence to the UK or the US is why he was targetted never made any sense.

I think Chepiga connection to Ukraine and Skipral meetings with Ukraine intelligence probably was the reason the Russians went after this guy in the UK.

Gatling

I see the russians said that they believe the US were operating an illegal Chemical weapons facility in Georgia ,

This comes after a statement said Georgia would join NATO as a full member in the next 6-10 years ,

Get the feeling another invasion and annexation is coming ,wait they already are in parts of Georgia

Cheerful Spring

weisses wrote: »

They are all involved in doing these things.

The issue is the pathetic attempts to clear Russia from this kind of behavior.

I don't think we trying to clear blame. Their thing called evidence that you should demand first even if you are right in the end.

There was no clear motive until recently.

Skipral brought this on himself he should have retired and lived peacefully. Instead, he was meeting Ukrainian intelligence and passing on information. That going to get you killed.

The only sympathy I have is for Skipral daughter and woman who died in the UK. Skipral is a traitor to his country. If an Irishman was selling secrets to a foreign government and this got Irish soldiers killed would you think the same?

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

NATO is what ,

Helping Ukraine defend itself from Russia ,you know the Russian military forces occupying parts of Ukraine illegally ,who invited russia into Ukraine?
The same russians who shot down flight MH17 killing all onboard .

You talk some awful nonsense

They were already there pre-coup. Russia had a naval and army base in Sevastopol. How can you invade when Crimea had a special status relationship with Russia? All the Russian personnel at Sevastopol did is put on uniforms that had no insignia so it would not incite violence.

People in Ukraine rose up against the takeover. Russia may have sided with the rebels. The rebels they see themselves as Russians, who just happened to live in Ukraine after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine army was going to end that revolution but Russia decided to help the rebels defend themselves.

Putin did not order rebels in Ukraine to shoot down a commercial airliner. The plane flew over a war zone the pilots and airline made a serious mistake.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They were already there pre-coup. Russia had a naval and army base in Sevastopol. How can you invade when Crimea had a special status relationship with Russia? All the Russian personnel at Sevastopol did is put on uniforms that had no insignia so it would not incite violence.

People in Ukraine rose up against Russia


Putin did not order rebels in Ukraine to shoot down a commercial airliner.

All they did was force an illegal and not recognised vote under threats of military action -

Fact .

Rebels didn't shoot at flight MH17 killing all on board but russian military forces did shoot down flight MH17 killing all on board in Ukraine.

Russian military forces illegally operating inside the sovereign state of Ukraine shot down flight MH 17.

Fact .


No stop with the lies , propaganda and conspiracy theories

Elmer Blooker

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The plane flew over a war zone the pilots and airline made a serious mistake.

The crew of MH17 were instructed to divert 200 miles further north from the normal flight path by Kiev air traffic control on July 17th 2014. There was no mistake made by the pilot or the airline.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

All they did was force an illegal and not recognised vote under threats of military action -

Fact .

Rebels didn't shoot at flight MH17 killing all on board but russian military forces did shoot down flight MH17 killing all on board in Ukraine.

Russian military forces illegally operating inside the sovereign state of Ukraine shot down flight MH 17.

Fact .


No stop with the lies , propaganda and conspiracy theories

65 per cent of Crimea population identifies themselves as Russian (fact). The outcome would be the same. There was no threat of military action the 35 per of Ukrainians left can't change the outcome of a referendum. The Crimea people, the majority did not want to stay part of Ukraine.

Buk anti-aircraft battery was used by the Ukrainians and the Rebels. There no possible way to identify who fired it. It's a Soviet-made weapon platform, you don't need Russian trained personnel there to use it.

Cheerful Spring

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The crew of MH17 were instructed to divert 200 miles further north from the normal flight path by Kiev air traffic control on July 17th 2014. There was no mistake made by the pilot or the airline.

What are you saying the Ukrainians deliberately send the plane into the fire to be shot down?

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

65 per cent of Crimea population identifies themselves as Russian (fact). The outcome would be the same. .

Buk anti-aircraft battery was used by the Ukrainians and the Rebels. There no possible way to identify who fired it. It's a Soviet-made weapon platform, you don't need Russian trained personnel there to use it.

54% but yet in areas some 110 % of the population voted to join russia there goes more lies .
The vehicle and missle came from a russian anti aircraft unit they even know the names of the russian soldiers operating it ,
Fact

No point in trying to twist anything with lies and propaganda I've pulled apart more putinbot posts than most .

Stick to the Illuminati

batgoat

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

65 per cent of Crimea population identifies themselves as Russian (fact). The outcome would be the same. There was no threat of military action the 35 per of Ukrainians left can't change the outcome of a referendum. The Crimea people, the majority did not want to stay part of Ukraine.

Most inhabitants of Sudentenland back in the day identified as German so you'd argued that the Nazi annexation was justified back in the day? You adopt a pro Russian stance on everything because you literally seem to fall for everything their propaganda outlets have outputted.

Skripal case was everyone but Russia according to you for the last few months. You've literally claimed a random website was the world standard of facial recognition because it suited your view...

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

54% but yet in areas some 110 % of the population voted to join russia there goes more lies .
The vehicle and missle came from a russian anti aircraft unit they even know the names of the russian soldiers operating it ,
Fact

No point in trying to twist anything with lies and propaganda I've pulled apart more putinbot posts than most .

Stick to the Illuminati

Census was done in Crimea 65 per cent identify themselves as Russian. About 12 per cent are Tatars. Rest identified themselves as Ukrainians and slavs.

You don't understand how elections work. It depends on who votes not percentages of the population.

The area where the plane got shot down was controlled by Ukrainians and rebels. Even if the rebels shot it down they probably thought it was a Ukranian military aircraft.

There not enough Ukrainians living in Crimea to change the outcome of the referendum.

wexie

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You don't understand how elections work. It depends on who votes not percentages of the population.

So you're saying there's a plausible explanation for a 110% turnout in an election?

And you're accusing someone else of not understanding how elections work?

........

Cheerful Spring

batgoat wrote: »

Most inhabitants of Sudentenland back in the day identified as German so you'd argued that the Nazi annexation was justified back in the day? You adopt a pro Russian stance on everything because you literally seem to fall for everything their propaganda outlets have outputted.

Skripal case was everyone but Russia according to you for the last few months. You've literally claimed a random website was the world standard of facial recognition because it suited your view...

No because of the Nazis invading the rest of Czechoslovakia, I don't consider it all the same way.

Putin clearly has not moved in and taken Kiev. This is not an invasion.

False again I was open to the possibility as far back as May it might be Russia. I have already challenged this assertion before producing a post of mine from back then. I demanded evidence first.

There still no evidence that guy on the wall is Borisov. The image is blurred and not detailed enough. The name on the wall is legit though I have to no reason to doubt is not a real person. Why Russia seemly denies that person earned a military award is weird so it could be Borisov is a GRU agent.

Cheerful Spring

wexie wrote: »

So you're saying there's a plausible explanation for a 110% turnout in an election?

And you're accusing someone else of not understanding how elections work?

........

The voter turnout in Crimea was 83 per cent. 17 per cent of registered voter did not vote, the probably Ukranians and Tatars

batgoat

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

No because of the Nazis invading the rest of Czechoslovakia, I don't consider it all the same way.

So you'd have been all good with their initial annexation of Sudetenland? You're backing what was an illegal referendum so you have very loose criteria on what you think are acceptable invasions...

Elmer Blooker

batgoat wrote: »

You're backing what was an illegal referendum so you have very loose criteria on what you think are acceptable invasions...

Washington and its stooges might have thought the referendum illegal but the citizens of Crimea had every right to determine their own future, get over it!

Cheerful Spring

batgoat wrote: »

So you'd have been all good with their initial annexation of Sudetenland? You're backing what was an illegal referendum so you have very loose criteria on what you think are acceptable invasions...

Depends Sudetenland was part of Austria and the Hungarian empire. If people voted peacefully to be part of Austria I be ok with it. The Nazis had bigger goals in mind than just self-determination. If Putin took over Kiev I would see this as an invasion of a sovereign country. The people in Kiev clearly don't want to be colony of Russia.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Buk anti-aircraft battery was used by the Ukrainians and the Rebels. There no possible way to identify who fired it. It's a Soviet-made weapon platform, you don't need Russian trained personnel there to use it.

Just on this, the BUK was tracked coming from Russia into Ukraine and back out again and there were separatists/russians caught on radio bragging about it. There is loads more evidence in the official report. The Russian version of the story is about as reliable as Chepiga not being a hero of Russian Federation.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The voter turnout in Crimea was 83 per cent.

According to Sputnik ?

Wait it's not an invasion because they didn't take Kiev ,
Really

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Just on this, the BUK was tracked coming from Russia into Ukraine and back out again and there were separatists/russians caught on radio bragging about it. There is loads more evidence in the official report. The Russian version of the story is about as reliable as Chepiga not being a hero of Russian Federation.

Tracked by who? That's a big claim they tracked the Buk system coming from Russia to Ukraine.

Have you got this radio transcript and audio?

End of the day I am not opposed to this the rebels shot down the plane. What I find strange is people believing Putin told them to do this. Its warzone accidents are going to happen. I more inclined to believe they thought it was a Ukranian warplane they shot down. Why be happy the killed innocent people?

Elmer Blooker

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Tracked by who? That's a big claim they tracked the Buk system coming from Russia to Ukraine.

Have you got this radio transcript and audio?

End of the day I am not opposed to this the rebels shot down the plane. What I find strange is people believing Putin told them to do this. Its warzone accidents are going to happen. I more inclined to believe they thought it was a Ukranian warplane they shot down. Why be happy the killed innocent people?

Eliot 'bellingcat' Higgins, that's who.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

According to Sputnik ?

Wait it's not an invasion because they didn't take Kiev ,
Really

There were uprisings in the east of Ukraine. What you forget about this is Russia stayed out of the conflicts for months and months on end. I remember the events clearly. The Ukranian army was beating the rebels badly. Ukrainians were about to make a final push and end the conflict and kill a lot of civilians in the Donbass region. I remember discussing it in another forum and people were convinced it was only days or a week left and be all over. I was fully convinced Putin would get involved I could not see how he would just stand by at allow the slaughter to continue. Suddenly the Ukrainians got hammered when the tried to make the final push, the Russians had enough and got involved.

Cheerful Spring

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Eliot 'bellingcat' Higgins, that's who.

How did he track it you probably need security sources for that info?

wexie

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

How did he track it you probably need security sources for that info?

You mean like the Dutch government have?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8YTCQ5-kR3aqaUwyUk1Sig/videos

Although they are part of NATO so I guess we can't trust them....

wexie

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I remember the events clearly.

No you don't

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Tracked by who? That's a big claim they tracked the Buk system coming from Russia to Ukraine.

Have you got this radio transcript and audio?

End of the day I am not opposed to this the rebels shot down the plane. What I find strange is people believing Putin told them to do this. Its warzone accidents are going to happen. I more inclined to believe they thought it was a Ukranian warplane they shot down. Why be happy the killed innocent people?

Here's a link to the audio. The transcript is in English though but you can compare the translations.


Regarding thr tracking comment, "tracking" may be the wrong word - it was spotted in Donetsk and later identified. There were also pictures taken along the way because people in Ukraine and even some people in Russia have smartphones and internet. It's BUK 332 which belongs to the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade from Kursk. They have taken taken many pictures of themselves and shared them on social media.


As for Putin personally ordering it, I'm not aware of anyone making that claim. I agree that in war, shít happens and this was most likely caused by separatists thinking it was a Ukrainian military plane.


Here's a deleted twitter post by another separatist:

https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/489802664264212480/photo/1

mcmoustache

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Eliot 'bellingcat' Higgins, that's who.

How do you think he tracked it?


You would be surprised at how many people in Ukraine have smartphones and internet. Even in Russia, some soldiers can afford camera phones and they have a bad habit of uploading stuff to VK. McClatchy and Bellingcat went through this sort of open source data.


And regarding the vilification of Higgins, this is going to work as well as blaming Soros for everything.

Cheerful Spring

wexie wrote: »

You mean like the Dutch government have?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8YTCQ5-kR3aqaUwyUk1Sig/videos

Although they are part of NATO so I guess we can't trust them....

What am I looking for exactly that shows what I am asking for?

If the rebels shot down the plane why they did not try recovering the parts of the plane and cover up the evidence?

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Here's a link to the audio. The transcript is in English though but you can compare the translations.


That clear evidence then they thought it was just a plane. One guy even said **** when heard civilians were dead at the crash site. Another guy says was there weapons on board?

It clear as day they thought it was some Ukranian plane. One guy even complained why was it flying over a war zone?

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That clear evidence then they thought it was just a plane. One guy even said **** when heard civilians were dead at the crash site. Another guy says was there weapons on board?

It clear as day they thought it was some Ukranian plane. One guy even complained why was it flying over a war zone?

I don't disagree with that at all. The plane flew over a Donetsk and was shot down by separatists.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There were .

Was this forums the heroes of russia or the Illuminati one

Elmer Blooker

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This latest episode of propaganda will quickly die down and will be dropped by a compliant media within a day or two and this thread will also go very quiet accordingly. (like the Salisbury 'third suspect')
There will be a break for a time before the next episode of anti Russia propaganda is prepared for the masses.

^ As I said two days ago the latest "hacking" by Russia that incredibly the US, UK, Netherlands, Canada all uncovered at exactly the same time, will no longer be news. The only mention RTE made yesterday was the review of the papers on Morning Ireland and absolutely nothing after that.
Why do you think Georgia, Ukraine, Crimea, MH17, Donetsk, Donbass was discussed in this thread last night?
There will be a bit of a break for a while now before the anti Russia circus begins all over again. We haven't seen any pictures of Syrian babies being rescued for quite a while now have we? Maybe that's next as the public are bored with this hacking stuff. I think its a case of in one ear and out the other at this stage!

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

^ As I said two days ago the latest "hacking" by Russia that incredibly the US, UK, Netherlands, Canada all uncovered at exactly the same time, will no longer be news. The only mention RTE made yesterday was the review of the papers on Morning Ireland and absolutely nothing after that.
Why do you think Georgia, Ukraine, Crimea, MH17, Donetsk, Donbass was discussed in this thread last night?
There will be a bit of a break for a while now before the anti Russia circus begins all over again. We haven't seen any pictures of Syrian babies being rescued for quite a while now have we?

But you forgot to mention the russian plane shotdown by the Syrians that russia blamed on everyone else ,(seems planes and russians don't mix)

mcmoustache

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

^ As I said two days ago the latest "hacking" by Russia that incredibly the US, UK, Netherlands, Canada all uncovered at exactly the same time, will no longer be news. The only mention RTE made yesterday was the review of the papers on Morning Ireland and absolutely nothing after that.
Why do you think Georgia, Ukraine, Crimea, MH17, Donetsk, Donbass was discussed in this thread last night?
There will be a bit of a break for a while now before the anti Russia circus begins all over again. We haven't seen any pictures of Syrian babies being rescued for quite a while now have we? Maybe that's next as the public are bored with this hacking stuff. I think its a case of in one ear and out the other at this stage!

Are you saying that these countries just made it all up to make poor Russia look bad? I'm honestly not really sure what you're getting at other than your being incredulous for no reason. You seem to be unable to grasp the fact a country could commit fúckery in multiple countries and have multiple countries respond at a similar time.

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

But you forgot to mention the russian plane shotdown by the Syrians that russia blamed on everyone else ,(seems planes and russians don't mix)

Israel has carried out 200 strikes inside Syria. Iran and Syria when have they attacked Israel recently?

Israel is clearly a rogue state.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Are you saying that these countries just made it all up to make poor Russia look bad? I'm honestly not really sure what you're getting at other than your being incredulous for no reason. You seem to be unable to grasp the fact a country could commit fúckery in multiple countries and have multiple countries respond at a similar time.

Russia is engaged in intelligence activities against the west. That hardly a shocker though when the West is supporting their enemies in Syria, Ukraine. Nato bases surrounding Russia, they hardly just going to sit idle and watch. They need to gather the intelligence in case the **** really hit the fan. That's why I think we should talk to Russia, make them think differently about the choices they have.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Ukraine. Nato bases surrounding Russia,

Wrong NATO bases are not surrounding russia

Next

Gatling

Bellingcat strikes again ,
The have identified another suspect a Dr in the Russian intelligence noless

Alexander Petrov is Dr. Alexander Yevgenyevich Mishkin - according to Bellingcat investigators

Dohnjoe

Personal incredulity incoming, taking bets

"That photo doesn't look like him!"
"Lol why would the Kremlin send a doctor?"
"Bellingcat is propaganda! (but an English-speaking Russian state-controlled outlet is somehow legit, where several casters have literally quit live on air condemning the, wait for it, propaganda)

Elmer Blooker

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Personal incredulity incoming, taking bets

"That photo doesn't look like him!"
"Lol why would the Kremlin send a doctor?"
"Bellingcat is propaganda! (but an English-speaking Russian state-controlled outlet is somehow legit, where several casters have literally quit live on air condemning the, wait for it, propaganda)

Yawn. You know what a soap opera is? New characters have to brought in to the plot to keep the public interested. This Doctor whats-his-name will be forgotten tomorrow.
Next!
Forgotten already by Morning Ireland or most likely they can't even be bothered.