Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

Franz Von Peppercorn

batgoat wrote: »

Are all the news sites lying?



Are the OPCW also misrepresenting their results? :rolleyes:

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-issues-report-on-technical-assistance-requested-by-the-united-kingdom/

No.

This statement.

“The results of the analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirms the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.”

Confirms it’s novichok but nothing else.

The spin is then suggesting that this formula of words proves it’s Russia.

The Dublin bombers are quite capable of poisoning a Russian and in fact have the motive.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Folkstonian wrote: »

It’s MI5, as in military intelligence, section 5. The M15 was a motorway in London.

Ludicrous pedantry.

Every profession has it’s careless and slovenly operators, even international espionage. As already mentioned, maybe you can read about the trail of radioactive breadcrumbs Lugovoy left all over London and right back to Heathrow airport for Scotland Yard to follow back in 2006.

The slovenly operators could well be the MI5. Or a rogue operator.

The Russians have shown yet again they have a total disregard for law and human life in the U.K. as they did in the Litvinenko episode

This kind of argument is called presuming the conclusion.

It wouldn’t come as any shock whatsoever if it does emerge the container used to transport the nerve agent was discarded in a public bin after the attack, only for drug addicts to come across it several weeks later.

Except we’ve been told that novichok is extremely volatile and degrades quickly.

Nobody should presume anything here. It’s possible the Russians deliberately implicated themselves by attacking a British resident for no sane reason except to bring the opobrium of the West, thus harming their economy even more than it has previously been harmed by sanctions.

Or the brains behind the Dublin bombings, the organisation that probably backed UVF killings of British citizens and numerous other atrocities, engaged in a false flag operation. To argue to incredulity that this couldn’t have happened is to show a surfeit of naivety and a deficit of critical thinking.

Dohnjoe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Confirms it’s novichok but nothing else.

They backed up the assessment of the UK gov that it was Novichok

I haven't seen anyone in recent posts claim that the OPCW fingered Russia. The article provided puts it badly with line 1 and line 3

Dohnjoe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s possible the Russians deliberately implicated themselves by attacking a British resident for no sane reason except to bring the opobrium of the West, thus harming their economy even more than it has previously been harmed by sanctions.

Why act so incredulous when Russians suspects offed Litvinenko in a similar deliberate calling card manner (coincidentally several months after a bill was passed in Russia sanctioning the killing of "foreign extremists")

The evidence of that attack damning. Not only that, one of the suspects in that attack was appointed as a Duma deputy - effectively making them immune from prosecution

No one questions the implausibility of Kim Jong Un murdering his estranged half brother with VX gas. But when the Kremlin, which literally has a direct history of doing this is suspected.. of doing this - some people (coincidentally the same people who always defend Putin) have a sudden crisis of critical thinking

Will the putinbot deniers disappear now with some lads who flew in from Moscow being implicated?

Traces found at the hotel they stayed at.

seamus

No, they can keep on denying. Those two Russian lads are already dead, they'll never be found.

Dohnjoe

seamus wrote: »

No, they can keep on denying. Those two Russian lads are already dead, they'll never be found.

Dead? they are likely to be hailed as "national heroes" or used as part of the information war

Assetbacked

It's easier to blame Russia then the laboratory near where the incidents occurred? It's very much a Malcolm Tucker level of spin to keep working the anti-Russia narrative, especially with the Novichok poisonings, quite enjoyable in some ways!

The media headline writers linking Russia to this new report are like a poor magician who fails at his levitation or disappearance trick. Business Insider;

"Independent inspectors back up UK assessment that Russia poisoned former spy"

This is absolutely incorrect! I'm not familiar with this publication but I don't hold much faith in it when the report merely confirms the chemical that was used - this isn't anything new!

Venom

I doubt the full truth regarding this attack will ever come out but it's funny how everytime May is taking hits over her handling of Brexit, this story pops up again in the news.

Cheerful Spring

glasso wrote: »

Will the putinbot deniers disappear now with some lads who flew in from Moscow being implicated?

Traces found at the hotel they stayed at.

And no people spend the night in this room since these guys allegedly stayed there? If they finding traces of military grade never agent that room must be toxic. The narrative is silly.

All we got here are two random dudes pictured at different locations. These guys could be anyone. Where is the visa application, passport, show them coming off a plane we know came from Russia. Show the CTV at the airport with date time and stamped. There no images of them in the park or near Skipral home.

Could they be Russian citizens sure but that meaningless information? Russians arrive every day to England and are very innocent. They also could be Ukrainian spies or Russian gangsters who knows.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Could they be Russian citizens sure but that meaningless information? Russians arrive every day to England and are very innocent. They also could be Ukrainian spies or Russian gangsters who knows.

They are identified as Russians. The target was a Russian spy. The country suspected of being involved is Russia. The nerve agent used was originally developed by Russia. The internal evidence (that the public isn't privy to) pointed to Russian involvement, the dossier convinced many administrations with their own intelligence agencies. A Russian spy was poisoned before, the suspects were Russian. Those suspects were protected by... Russia.

"It can't be Russia.. it could be anyone" - incredulous posters who support Putin regardless of information or evidence. AKA the term Putinbots.

Cheerful Spring

Venom wrote: »

I doubt the full truth regarding this attack will ever come out but it's funny how everytime May is taking hits over her handling of Brexit, this story pops up again in the news.

An update on Skipral case also came when the jihadists carried out that chemical attack in Syria. Russia has just started bombing in Idlib Syria. The British are likely going to be involved in the new attack against Syria soon its perfect time to come out with this.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They are identified as Russians. The target was a Russian spy. The country suspected of being involved is Russia. The nerve agent used was originally developed by Russia. The internal evidence (that the public isn't privy to) pointed to Russian involvement, the dossier convinced many administrations with their own intelligence agencies. A Russian spy was poisoned before, the suspects were Russian. Those suspects were protected by... Russia.

"It can't be Russia.. it could be anyone" - incredulous posters who support Putin regardless of information or evidence. AKA the term Putinbots.

Theresa May said the information was classified they were Russian. Police claim they could be using aliases so they could be anyone. Theresa May is claiming they are GRU but will she show the evidence, doubtful.

Elmer Blooker

March 2018: 'highly likely' Russian state involvement.
September 2018: 'almost certainly' Russian state involvement.

I see the 'evidence' has really progressed over the past six months!

WinnyThePoo

Why is everyone talking about May. Scotland Yard released photos of the men. They certainly have more information than the 'it could be anybody' parade.

_Whimsical_

They mentioned on the news that the man who had been poisoned alongside his girlfriend who has since died, is now back in hospital and his brother has told media that he is close to death.

mcmoustache

Dohnjoe wrote: »

"It can't be Russia.. it could be anyone" - incredulous posters who support Putin regardless of information or evidence. AKA the term Putinbots.

What's mad about it all is that they'll ignore the mountain of evidence pointing at Russia and jump on the slightest, solitary hint that anyone else could be implicated. Basically, "It's never Russia. Even when it is".

WinnyThePoo

Fascinating and grinding work by the police. They went through 11,000 hourse of Cctv footage, to piece these guys movements.

WinnyThePoo

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Fascinating and grinding work by the police. They went through 11,000 hourse of Cctv footage, to piece these guys movements.

it is pretty meticulous work.

Obviously it is all nonsense and the cctv footage of two guys arriving from Moscow and hanging around the Skripal house on the morning of the attack is all a coincidence. Salisbury is one of the UK's biggest attractions for Russian tourists, so their presence there and the fact a Russian produced nerve agent was used on a former Russian spy are in no way connected.

it could have been anyone really and besides, Putin is a lovely guy and likes puppy dogs and unicorns and stuff.

or something like that

2smiggy

former UK ambassador Craig Murray not too convinced about the whole thing, but sur what would he know about anything ...

link

ohnonotgmail

2smiggy wrote: »

former UK ambassador Craig Murray not too convinced about the whole thing, but sur what would he know about anything ...

link

his synopsis basically breaks down to "they couldn't be russian agents because they are incompetent".

2smiggy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

his synopsis basically breaks down to "they couldn't be russian agents because they are incompetent".

he is a long time calling this bullsh*t , if the best they can come up with is a few cctv photos 6 months after the event would you not have doubts too ?

ohnonotgmail

2smiggy wrote: »

he is a long time calling this bullsh*t , if the best they can come up with is a few cctv photos 6 months after the event would you not have doubts too ?

Given how much CCTV footage they had to go through i'm not surprised it has taken this long. I do remember him being interviewed when this all first started. I would question his motives. He is far too quick to dismiss any possibility that the russians were involved.

mcmoustache

2smiggy wrote: »

former UK ambassador Craig Murray not too convinced about the whole thing, but sur what would he know about anything ...

link

Which Craig Murray?

Disgraced former diplomat Craig Murray?
The one who left his wife for an uzbeki stripper?
The one who exchanged sex for visas?
The one who works for wikileaks?
The one who claims that Russians weren't interfering in the US elections?
The one who claims that the DNC emails were given to him in a wooded area after they had already been released?

The man's a crank.

Craig Murray has an agenda. Only people looking for what they want to hear would give him any credence.

ohnonotgmail

mcmoustache wrote: »

Which Craig Murray?

Disgraced former diplomat Craig Murray?
The one who left his wife for an uzbeki stripper?
The one who exchanged sex for visas?
The one who works for wikileaks?
The one who claims that Russians weren't interfering in the US elections?
The one who claims that the DNC emails were given to him in a wooded area after they had already been released?

The man's a crank.

I actually wasnt aware of that part of his history but it now makes much more sense.

2smiggy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Given how much CCTV footage they had to go through i'm not surprised it has taken this long. I do remember him being interviewed when this all first started. I would question his motives. He is far too quick to dismiss any possibility that the russians were involved.

who know's who or what was involved, just i'd be very slow in believing a repor 6 months after the fact. This was world wide news at the time, and it took 6 months to pick out a few cctv photos, and as they admit, probably fake names, and then put the blame on russian secret service ?? strikes me as very odd

2smiggy

glasso wrote: »

Craig Murray has an agenda. Only people looking for what they want to hear would give him any credence.

same as the bbc then , or british government you could argue

ohnonotgmail

2smiggy wrote: »

who know's who or what was involved, just i'd be very slow in believing a repor 6 months after the fact. This was world wide news at the time, and it took 6 months to pick out a few cctv photos, and as they admit, probably fake names, and then put the blame on russian secret service ?? strikes me as very odd

well it was a little bit more than a few cctv photos. Just because you cannot comprehend the enormity of the task facing the police does not make it suspicious.

mcmoustache

glasso wrote: »

Craig Murray has an agenda. Only people looking for what they want to hear would give him any credence.

Having an agenda isn't the worst thing in the world. It's possible to be honest and reliable even with an agenda.

The problem with Murray is that too many of his claims have been shown to be either mistaken or fabricated. His input should be valued about at much as a randommer down in the pub but some people think that he knows what he's at just because he was a failed diplomat in Uzbekistan once upon a time and runs a blog.

2smiggy

mcmoustache wrote: »

Which Craig Murray?

Disgraced former diplomat Craig Murray?
The one who left his wife for an uzbeki stripper?
The one who exchanged sex for visas?
The one who works for wikileaks?
The one who claims that Russians weren't interfering in the US elections?
The one who claims that the DNC emails were given to him in a wooded area after they had already been released?

The man's a crank.

i read his book years ago, liked it, think perhaps the british government did not like him , and so sullied his name ? all theory i know ..

2smiggy

2smiggy wrote: »

who know's who or what was involved, just i'd be very slow in believing a repor 6 months after the fact. This was world wide news at the time, and it took 6 months to pick out a few cctv photos, and as they admit, probably fake names, and then put the blame on russian secret service ?? strikes me as very odd

Matching up pictures of two men in Salisbury, with images of the same two men arriving in to Gatwick (which handles over 120,000 passengers per day) and then departing from Heathrow (which handles over 200,000 passengers per day) is pretty time consuming I would guess.

seamus

2smiggy wrote: »

who know's who or what was involved, just i'd be very slow in believing a repor 6 months after the fact. This was world wide news at the time, and it took 6 months to pick out a few cctv photos, and as they admit, probably fake names, and then put the blame on russian secret service ?? strikes me as very odd

The level of denialism to convince yourself of this is nothing short of amazing.

Two people are found in a near-death state in a small park in a quiet part of London, poisoned, with no witnesses nor any trace of the poison.

And you're surprised that it took this long to get CCTV images of the suspects? Are you fncking serious?

We should be amazed they have anything at all.

Are you pro-Russia, or do you just hate the Brits, so distrust them by default?

mcmoustache

2smiggy wrote: »

i read his book years ago, liked it, think perhaps the british government did not like him , and so sullied his name ? all theory i know ..

That's possible and I can't rule out the idea that the the Brits would disgrace him.

What set off alarm bells for me was the association with Julian Assange and his insistence that Russia had nothing to do with the 2016 US election and the fact that Hannity refers to him a lot. When I looked further into him, it turned out that he was always just taking the Russian line on everything.

2smiggy

Aegir wrote: »

Matching up pictures of two men in Salisbury, with images of the same two men arriving in to Gatwick (which handles over 120,000 passengers per day) and then departing from Heathrow (which handles over 200,000 passengers per day) is pretty time consuming I would guess.

i guess. or maybe they would have facial recognition software that would work quicker than 6 months

i presume they have something quicker than commodore 64's

2smiggy

mcmoustache wrote: »

That's possible and I can't rule out the idea that the the Brits would disgrace him.

What set off alarm bells for me was the association with Julian Assange and his insistence that Russia had nothing to do with the 2016 US election and the fact that Hannity refers to him a lot. When I looked further into him, it turned out that he was always just taking the Russian line on everything.

won't disagree that he is definitely leaning towards the russian side. probably due to his distrust after his own dealings with the british government.

still bringing out these names and photos after 6 months would surely seem odd at best. he was fired by the same government that told us about Iraq's stockpile of nuclear weapons, after he raised concern about torture by US and British agency's in the country where he was the British ambassador

ohnonotgmail

2smiggy wrote: »

i guess. or maybe they would have facial recognition software that would work quicker than 6 months

i presume they have something quicker than commodore 64's

you've probably watched too much CSI.

Discodog

The Police had these images they just delayed their release until they knew there was no prospect of arrests. You don't alert the criminals that you are on to them.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Which Craig Murray?

Disgraced former diplomat Craig Murray?
The one who left his wife for an uzbeki stripper?
The one who exchanged sex for visas?
The one who works for wikileaks?
The one who claims that Russians weren't interfering in the US elections?
The one who claims that the DNC emails were given to him in a wooded area after they had already been released?

The man's a crank.

You misrepresenting what actually happened.

The human rights abuses were worse in Uzbekistan than in Iraq, thought Murray in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, but the latter was being invaded while the government of the former was being supported. In an internal document by Murray, later leaked to the Financial Times, he commented that Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) used intelligence provided by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from the Uzbek authorities gained through torture. "Tortured dupes are forced to sign up to confessions showing what the Uzbek government wants the US and UK to believe", he wrote. "It is moral, legally and practically wrong to continue to receive this material. It is hypocritical and fatally undermines our moral standing," he wrote in a July 2004 dispatch.

The British Government went after him for leaking and made up fake evidence to have him removed. They were later forced to drop all charges. Craig has a moral compass, people in government don't like people knowing the truth.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Given how much CCTV footage they had to go through i'm not surprised it has taken this long. I do remember him being interviewed when this all first started. I would question his motives. He is far too quick to dismiss any possibility that the russians were involved.

He uses logic and common sense.

At 09.15 on Sunday 4 March the Skripals’ car was seen on CCTV driving through three different locations in Salisbury.

But the Metropolitan Police state that Boshirov and Petrov did not arrive in Salisbury until 11.48 on the day of the poisoning. That means that they could not have applied a nerve agent to the Skripals’ doorknob before noon at the earliest.

They left home sometime before 1.30pm and were perfectly fine at 3.35pm they were spotted outside a fitness store.

This slowest working military grade nerve agent ever made!

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

He uses logic and common sense.

At 09.15 on Sunday 4 March the Skripals’ car was seen on CCTV driving through three different locations in Salisbury.

But the Metropolitan Police state that Boshirov and Petrov did not arrive in Salisbury until 11.48 on the day of the poisoning. That means that they could not have applied a nerve agent to the Skripals’ doorknob before noon at the earliest.

They left home sometime before 1.30pm and were perfectly fine at 3.35pm they were spotted outside a fitness store.

This slowest working military grade nerve agent ever made!

You mean the police have more evidence now and what they thought initially was the timeline is not correct?

Cheerful Spring

seamus wrote: »

The level of denialism to convince yourself of this is nothing short of amazing.

Two people are found in a near-death state in a small park in a quiet part of London, poisoned, with no witnesses nor any trace of the poison.

And you're surprised that it took this long to get CCTV images of the suspects? Are you fncking serious?

We should be amazed they have anything at all.

Are you pro-Russia, or do you just hate the Brits, so distrust them by default?

They were found on a bench at around 4 pm or after 4.15pm the emergency services were made aware of two people acting strangely.

If the novitchok was spayed on a doorknob why did it take 3 hours to react? The police timeline is they left home again before 1.30pm.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You mean the police have more evidence now and what they thought initially was the timeline is not correct?

CTV shows the Skiprals arriving at the Mill pub at 1.40pm. They never returned home.

Cheerful Spring

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

He uses logic and common sense.

At 09.15 on Sunday 4 March the Skripals’ car was seen on CCTV driving through three different locations in Salisbury.

But the Metropolitan Police state that Boshirov and Petrov did not arrive in Salisbury until 11.48 on the day of the poisoning. That means that they could not have applied a nerve agent to the Skripals’ doorknob before noon at the earliest.

They left home sometime before 1.30pm and were perfectly fine at 3.35pm they were spotted outside a fitness store.

This slowest working military grade nerve agent ever made!

except he misses the bit where the agents also travelled to Salisbury the day before as well.

Cheerful Spring

Aegir wrote: »

except he misses the bit where the agents also travelled to Salisbury the day before as well.

Who cares they were poisoned on the 4th of March and it alleged these two men sprayed the Novitchok on the door of their home

The CTV clear shows them at the Mill Pub at 1.40pm and they left there to head to Zizzi Restaurant at 2.20pm. They spend an hour there. From there they were spotted out a fitness store at 3.35pm.

Novitchok is supposedly 10 times deadlier than VX, yet they fine for hours.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

CTV shows the Skiprals arriving at the Mill pub at 1.40pm. They never returned home.

perhaps you should take a look at the timeline. They arrived in the UK on March 2nd.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45429894

2smiggy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you've probably watched too much CSI.

i only have to look at my phone to unlock it, you think they don't use facial recognition ?

ohnonotgmail

2smiggy wrote: »

i only have to look at my phone to unlock it, you think they don't use facial recognition ?

you should probably stick to watching tv shows.

2smiggy

2smiggy wrote: »

i only have to look at my phone to unlock it, you think they don't use facial recognition ?

so you mean why can't they press a button and carry out facial recognition of all images taken on all cctv cameras in the uk like they do in the movies?

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

perhaps you should take a look at the timeline. They arrived in the UK on March 2nd.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45429894

They are just two guys they could be anyone. They could be Ukranian intelligence, Russian gangsters, patsies who knows. That they were spotted on March 2th is irrelevant.

The alleged incident took place on the 4th of March. The Skiprals were clearly fine from 1.30pm to 4 pm. Somewhere between 3.30pm and 4 pm, they felt unwell that's obviously when the preparators made their move.