Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

seamus

2smiggy wrote: »

They were very quick to blame Russia for the attacks, so I presume they would have started looking at Russian passports coming in and out of the UK, starting with London Airports.

Looking for what, and why just London airports? Why just Russians (they had fake passports, they didn't have to be Russian)?

Even think about that as a task. "Get me the name and an airport photo of everyone who landed in from Russia or left an English airport to Russia from 14 days before to 48 hours after the Skripal's death".

Now what? There are 11 flights arriving in from Moscow to Heathrow *today*. Extrapolate out to every airport in a 200km radius of London over 10 days. How many passengers is that? Let's say conservatively that's 10,000 people.

Then you need to try and whittle them down. You can't really, they're all randomers, unknown to the authorities.

Right, so get the photos, and start trying to trace the movements of each passenger out of the terminal and onto public transport. Oh crap, that guy got in a taxi, where did that go? That guy got into a private car, ****.

You really seem to be operating from an assumption that the UK already knew these two guys did it and spent the last six months looking for proof it was them.

xckjoo

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The timestamp is interesting how likely they were walking through the same space down to the second? Seems a big fail on whoever uploaded these images?

These could be two different walkthroughs, have to know where this in the airport?

Are you're implying that they went to all the trouble of creating fake images of these guys but are simultaneously too incompetent to remember to change the large timestamp that takes up a big part of the image? Images that they then released with the knowledge that they'd be seen by millions of people around the world?

Hoboo

xckjoo wrote: »

Are you're implying that they went to all the trouble of creating fake images of these guys but are simultaneously too incompetent to remember to change the large timestamp that takes up a big part of the image? Images that they then released with the knowledge that they'd be seen by millions of people around the world?

Well the 'Murcans' littered ground zero with passports and documention of hijackers that were still alive and well in their home towns. Just because they're secret service doesn't make them our brightest or best.

ohnonotgmail

xckjoo wrote: »

Are you're implying that they went to all the trouble of creating fake images of these guys but are simultaneously too incompetent to remember to change the large timestamp that takes up a big part of the image? Images that they then released with the knowledge that they'd be seen by millions of people around the world?

well lets be honest it is much more logical than the alternative of the two guys being russian operatives who went to the home town of a russian double agent and tried to murder him and his daughter. Cheerful Springs critical thinking skills have the world beat yet again.

seamus

xckjoo wrote: »

Are you're implying that they went to all the trouble of creating fake images of these guys but are simultaneously too incompetent to remember to change the large timestamp that takes up a big part of the image? Images that they then released with the knowledge that they'd be seen by millions of people around the world?

To be fair, it does look a little suspect. But it was clarified that the images are taken from two different tunnels after the customs check. Before arrivals, crowds are split up into narrow tunnels; presumably there's some level of anti-terrorism and/or crowd control logic to this.

So as the two guys approached the tunnels, they went down different tunnels. Given that every tunnel is identical in layout, then it would make sense that they passed the camera(s) at the same second.

arcticthistle

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The timestamp is interesting how likely they were walking through the same space down to the second? Seems a big fail on whoever uploaded these images?

These could be two different walkthroughs, have to know where this in the airport?

So either Russians can move at the speed of light OR they walked from the same flight through 2 different walkthroughs at exactly the same time to the second OR
the pictures were doctored. Those are the only 3 explanations I can think of though there could be others.

seamus

arcticthistle wrote: »

they walked from the same flight through 2 different walkthroughs at exactly the same time to the second

Bingo.

Look at page 3 here:
https://www.gatwickairport.com/globalassets/documents/maps/gatwick_north_nov17.pdf

You can see as you come out into international arrivals, it splits into two channels. Why? Who knows.

Billy86

seamus wrote: »

Bingo.

Look at page 3 here:
https://www.gatwickairport.com/globalassets/documents/maps/gatwick_north_nov17.pdf

You can see as you come out into international arrivals, it splits into two channels. Why? Who knows.

Which also explains why the two photos are from slightly different angles - look at the top left corner and the view of the hand rail in the bottom right. If that were the same entrance way the angles would be identical.

Elmer Blooker

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well lets be honest it is much more logical than the alternative of the two guys being russian operatives who went to the home town of a russian double agent and tried to murder him and his daughter. Cheerful Springs critical thinking skills have the world beat yet again.

An ex British has been agent who bought a house in his own name and intended to live out his days retired in Salisbury ....... seems like he was no 1 on the Kremlin's hit list eh?
Wheres the evidence that these two guys brought the novi-joke to Salisbury?
I presume it is highly likely that they almost certainly probably did ........ all according to sources of course.

xckjoo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

An ex British has been agent who bought a house in his own name and intended to live out his days retired in Salisbury ....... seems like he was no 1 on the Kremlin's hit list eh?
Wheres the evidence that these two guys brought the novi-joke to Salisbury?
I presume it is highly likely that they almost certainly probably did ........ all according to sources of course.

<goalposts shifted>

ohnonotgmail

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

An ex British has been agent who bought a house in his own name and intended to live out his days retired in Salisbury ....... seems like he was no 1 on the Kremlin's hit list eh?
Wheres the evidence that these two guys brought the novi-joke to Salisbury?
I presume it is highly likely that they almost certainly probably did ........ all according to sources of course.

you mean an ex double agent. And putin has vowed death for all traitors to russia. It is really simple if you actually think about it.

mcmoustache

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you mean an ex double agent. And putin has vowed death for all traitors to russia. It is really simple if you actually think about it.

He was quite clear about it.

Putin wrote:

“Traitors will kick the bucket, believe me. Those other folks betrayed their friends, their brother in arms,” Mr Putin said.

“Whatever they got in exchange for it, those 30 pieces of silver they were given, they will choke on them.”

As you said, it's incredibly simple.

Putin threatens traitors. Traitors get killed by two Russians. Russia denies instead of handing over the two Russians.

Cheerful Spring

xckjoo wrote: »

Are you're implying that they went to all the trouble of creating fake images of these guys but are simultaneously too incompetent to remember to change the large timestamp that takes up a big part of the image? Images that they then released with the knowledge that they'd be seen by millions of people around the world?

The two guys were recorded at the exact same time in the same location. Even their position in the doorway is identical. That's odd.

That walkthrough is narrow only one person can fit in the space. The design choice is odd would the walkthrough not be bigger spaced to allow more people to walk? Could be an exclusive business class exit? Do we not need to get an accurate fix where exactly this area is in the airport? Are there any images online of this area we looking at?

seamus

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The two guys were recorded at the exact same time in the same location. Even their position in the doorway is identical. That's odd.

That walkthrough is narrow only one person can fit in the space. The design choice is odd would the walkthrough not be bigger spaced to allow more people to walk? Could be an exclusive business class exit? Do we not need to get an accurate fix where exactly this area is in the airport? Are there any images online of this area we looking at?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108018761&postcount=158

xckjoo

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The two guys were recorded at the exact same time in the same location. Even their position in the doorway is identical. That's odd.

That walkthrough is narrow only one person can fit in the space. The design choice is odd would the walkthrough not be bigger spaced to allow more people to walk? Could be an exclusive business class exit? Do we not need to get an accurate fix where exactly this area is in the airport? Are there any images online of this area we looking at?

Have you never been in an airport before? Are the straws your grasping at hurting your hands?


And just in case you try to ignore it, see Seamus post(s) for the unsurprising explanation.

Billy86

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

An ex British has been agent who bought a house in his own name and intended to live out his days retired in Salisbury ....... seems like he was no 1 on the Kremlin's hit list eh?
Wheres the evidence that these two guys brought the novi-joke to Salisbury?
I presume it is highly likely that they almost certainly probably did ........ all according to sources of course.

Says the guy who previously said he quite literally did not care that one of his more trusted sources was completely full of propaganda and lies, because it tells him what he wants to hear.

Cheerful Spring

seamus wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108018761&postcount=158

I have had not a lot of time to look into this. But from the images, I just looked at they are two exits to the North Terminal and South terminal when you come off international flights. I can't find images yet for what we see posted but I keeping looking.

Billy86

seamus wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108018761&postcount=158

It's almost worth bookmarking this post just to have the lin on hand for the sheer number of times the same few posters will try to keep pushing it despite it already big covered.

xckjoo

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I have had not a lot of time to look into this. But from the images, I just looked at they are two exits to the North Terminal and South terminal when you come off international flights. I can't find images yet for what we see posted but I keeping looking.

Good luck with that search. They generally frown on people taking photos of airports and their security areas and posting them online.

Dohnjoe

arcticthistle wrote: »

Facts are needed and facts that are provable. If that is too "so yesterday" for you then you might want to stop discussing anything, specifically if you think "highly likely" means SLAM DUNK

Nope, this is the nonsense I am referring to. There has been no court case yet, so they have to use the phrase "highly likely". There are two men with enough evidence to take them to court, they will never see court or trial (will be protected by Russia) so it is unlikely to happen

Another aspect to the "highly likely" phrase is that it's next to impossible to prove if these men were ordered by to do so by the Kremlin. Another level of impossibility would be to prove that Putin did it. Putin can literally have people murdered in other countries with nerve agents, calling cards, sloppy work, pointing directly to Russia (as intended) and there is almost zero chance of it ever coming back to him because there are so many layers and buffers between him and the final culprits

Likewise the same thing happened with Litvinenko, the evidence was damning, they literally left a trail of radioactive Polonium behind them, but the suspects couldn't be taken to court because they were protected by.. Russia.

Likewise MH17 was shot down, the evidence in the subsequent investigations was overwhelming, the people involved could not be held to account, why? they are protected by .. Russia

arcticthistle

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Nope, this is the nonsense I am referring to. There has been no court case yet, so they have to use the phrase "highly likely". There are two men with enough evidence to take them to court, they will never see court or trial (will be protected by Russia) so it is unlikely to happen

Another aspect to the "highly likely" phrase is that it's next to impossible to prove if these men were ordered by to do so by the Kremlin. Another level of impossibility would be to prove that Putin did it. Putin can literally have people murdered in other countries with nerve agents, calling cards, sloppy work, pointing directly to Russia (as intended) and there is almost zero chance of it ever coming back to him because there are so many layers and buffers between him and the final culprits

Likewise the same thing happened with Litvinenko, the evidence was damning, they literally left a trail of radioactive Polonium behind them, but the suspects couldn't be taken to court because they were protected by.. Russia.

Likewise MH17 was shot down, the evidence in the subsequent investigations was overwhelming, the people involved could not be held to account, why? they are protected by .. Russia

There has been no court case so there has been no establishment of guilt, right?
Yet punishment has been dished out wholesale in the form of sanctions and diplomatic expulsions.

You seem to have a rigid respect for the integrity of jurisprudence in some situations and a 'couldn't-give-a-toss' approach in other circumstances

xckjoo

arcticthistle wrote: »

There has been no court case so there has been no establishment of guilt, right?
Yet punishment has been dished out wholesale in the form of sanctions and diplomatic expulsions.

You seem to have a rigid respect for the integrity of jurisprudence in some situations and a 'couldn't-give-a-toss' approach in other circumstances

Britain are free to take whatever diplomatic decisions the feel are prudent with Russia (or anywhere else) at any given time. That's not the same thing as finding individual people guilty of a crime in a court of law.

Dohnjoe

arcticthistle wrote: »

There has been no court case so there has been no establishment of guilt, right?
Yet punishment has been dished out wholesale in the form of sanctions and diplomatic expulsions.

They can't take it to court.

So instead they use political action and pressure to deal with cases like this where the guilt of another nation is "highly likely". It's also made more complex by the fact that they can't make public the private intelligence (the Kremlin knows this)

It's also not an isolated case, it's happened before. And it's just another small part of a wider scale of information and hybrid warfare conducted by Moscow. Each case acting as a consensus towards it's broader doctrine. Foreign nations affected by this type of warfare can and will take action. In this case it was many nations.

Discodog

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They can't take it to court.

So instead they use political action and pressure to deal with cases like this where the guilt of another nation is "highly likely". It's also made more complex by the fact that they can't make public the private intelligence (the Kremlin knows this)

It's also not an isolated case, it's happened before. And it's just another small part of a wider scale of information and hybrid warfare conducted by Moscow. Each case acting as a consensus towards it's broader doctrine. Foreign nations affected by this type of warfare can and will take action. In this case it was many nations.

They can take it to Court & the Litvenyenko murderer if Putin hands them over but he won't especially Lugavoy who now runs one of Putins favourite restaurants.

Discodog

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I have had not a lot of time to look into this. But from the images, I just looked at they are two exits to the North Terminal and South terminal when you come off international flights. I can't find images yet for what we see posted but I keeping looking.

There used to be comment here about your "motives". Strangely whenever the Kremlin spout another lie, you copy it almost word for word.

Dohnjoe

Discodog wrote: »

They can take it to Court & the Litvenyenko murderer if Putin hands them over but he won't especially Lugavoy who now runs one of Putins favourite restaurants.

Indeed but Putin will never hand them over - hence it will never go to court

Apart from a few token outlets, most of the media are heavily influenced, controlled and subjugated. The opposition are non-existent, powerless, under house arrest or murdered. The internal and domestic intelligence and security services are directly under Putin's control, as are the judiciary. The Duma simply rubberstamp everything from Putin's party

The only real threat to this autocracy are ex-spies and insiders

Want to reveal inside info about Putin and the Kremlin? don't be surprised to be murdered or poisoned on foreign soil with an exotic "calling card". It's the ultimate deterrent.

seamus

At this point Putin, is literally pointing and laughing at the UK. He's not even trying to be clever about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/0913/993495-russia-skripal-case/

The two lads were just tourists at the wrong place and time apparently.

- They fly into the UK.
- They stay in a ****ty hotel.
- They take a day trip to Salisbury (this would be like taking the Luas to Tallaght to see the sights).
- Twice.
- The second time they happen to be right outside the Skripal's house
- After which, they go straight to the airport and leave
- They happened to stay in the only hotel room in the UK where traces of Novichok were found.

Incredible set of coincidences.

What a joke.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

At this point Putin, is literally pointing and laughing at the UK. He's not even trying to be clever about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/0913/993495-russia-skripal-case/

The two lads were just tourists at the wrong place and time apparently.

- They fly into the UK.
- They stay in a ****ty hotel.
- They take a day trip to Salisbury (this would be like taking the Luas to Tallaght to see the sights).
- Twice.
- The second time they happen to be right outside the Skripal's house
- After which, they go straight to the airport and leave
- They happened to stay in the only hotel room in the UK where traces of Novichok were found.

Incredible set of coincidences.

What a joke.

Two Russian men in what, their mid thirties, decide to travel to London for a weekend and the only thing they want to see is Salisbury Cathedral, 150 km away.

sounds legit.

mcmoustache

seamus wrote: »

What a joke.

It's what they do. They want the world to know that they did it while at the same time they want to deny it. It's little more than trolling on the world stage.

ohnonotgmail

mcmoustache wrote: »

It's what they do. They want the world to know that they did it while at the same time they want to deny it. It's little more than trolling on the world stage.

how long before one of the usual suspects chimes in to support what putin said?

Elmer Blooker

Aegir wrote: »

Two Russian men in what, their mid thirties, decide to travel to London for a weekend and the only thing they want to see is Salisbury Cathedral, 150 km away.

sounds legit.

Don't forget that they did a bit of window shopping ("what will we bring back for Vlad, Boris?"):pac: before they put the novijoke on the Skripal doorknob ... or was it Zizzi's restaurant? ... maybe it was the pub? ... it could have been Mr Skripal's BMW? .. there was something about an industrial estate wasn't there? ... of course there was the park bench too!
It was also disclosed that there was traces of the "deadly" novichok in that cheap looking east London hotel .... six months later! Have other residents who stayed at the hotel at the same time as these two men been traced so that they can get medical treatment after being exposed to a ........ "deadly" agent?

how long before one of the usual suspects chimes in to support what putin said?

I'm not just supporting what Putin said, this was a hoax from DAY ONE.

Billy86

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how long before one of the usual suspects chimes in to support what putin said?

Turns out it was literally two minutes.

Elmer Blooker

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I'm not just supporting what Putin said, this was a hoax from DAY ONE.

like when thousands of military aged private Russian civilians decided to paint a load of lorries green, put on combat fatigues and go on vacation to Ukraine?

That kind of hoax?

gandalf

seamus wrote: »

At this point Putin, is literally pointing and laughing at the UK. He's not even trying to be clever about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/0913/993495-russia-skripal-case/

The two lads were just tourists at the wrong place and time apparently.

- They fly into the UK.
- They stay in a ****ty hotel.
- They take a day trip to Salisbury (this would be like taking the Luas to Tallaght to see the sights).
- Twice.
- The second time they happen to be right outside the Skripal's house
- After which, they go straight to the airport and leave
- They happened to stay in the only hotel room in the UK where traces of Novichok were found.

Incredible set of coincidences.

What a joke.

Its pathetic. Do they really expect people to believe two lads flew four hours from Moscow to London on a Friday and all they wanted to do was visit Salisbury? And then they flew back to Moscow Sunday morning?

Putin is trolling the British now.

Sal Butamol

It's not nearly as pathetic as the "Carry On" story concocted by the Brits.

robinph

They need to put in a complaint to their cathedral spire spotting guide book. Salisbury cathedral isn't famous. I'm from not a major distance away and wouldn't have been confident on guessing if it even had a cathedral.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

They need to put in a complaint to their cathedral spire spotting guide book. Salisbury cathedral isn't famous. I'm from not a major distance away and wouldn't have been confident on guessing if it even had a cathedral.

Really? I've heard it as an answer on loads of quizzes, tallest spire I believe.

xckjoo

gandalf wrote: »

Its pathetic. Do they really expect people to believe two lads flew four hours from Moscow to London on a Friday and all they wanted to do was visit Salisbury? And then they flew back to Moscow Sunday morning?

Putin is trolling the British now.

They don't expect everyone to believe it, just enough so they can leverage the doubt. That's why the "troll army" portion of the work is so important and effective. If it was just Putin making a statement, only a tiny percentage of people would believe him, but add in the paid shills and bots that swamp social media platforms to spread doubt and suddenly the perception is that it's a widely held opinion and is in fact the "real truth" (people love thinking they see a truth where others don't). It's quite ingenious and a real problem.

Billy86

Aegir wrote: »

like when thousands of military aged private Russian civilians decided to paint a load of lorries green, put on combat fatigues and go on vacation to Ukraine?

That kind of hoax?

Elmer is already on record as saying he doesn't care if what he reads is Russian propaganda because he wants to believe it, so it's really not worth your time to be honest.

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? I've heard it as an answer on loads of quizzes, tallest spire I believe.

But that only makes it famous amongst spire nerds, and if that is what they really were they would have gone to Lincoln to see the worlds tallest building (until 15 something) or St Davids for the smallest city with a cathedral or St Pauls in London because it's ...well in London.

Anyway we are at least all in agreement that they are talking rubbish. Can we get Google to check where the Salisbury tourist board website was run through their translate app from over the last couple of days?

Elmer Blooker

robinph wrote: »

They need to put in a complaint to their cathedral spire spotting guide book. Salisbury cathedral isn't famous. I'm from not a major distance away and wouldn't have been confident on guessing if it even had a cathedral.

Seems like a major tourist attraction to me.

Salisbury Cathedral and its surrounding Close attract some 500,000 visitors each year. Many come as tourists, to worship or to attend concerts, workshops and art installations. There is nearly 800 years of history to explore, including Britain’s tallest spire, the best preserved of only four surviving 1215 Magna Carta documents and the world’s oldest working mechanical clock.

Turns out it was literally two minutes.

Wrong. I called this Austin Powers farce a hoax SIX MONTHS ago.

Billy86 post:
1. I said I like off-guardian.org and that hasn't changed.
2. If you think I'm going to read that rant you are mistaken.
3. I NEVER said I "don't care if what I read is Russian propaganda" - stop making up stuff, you can do better than that!

Dohnjoe

xckjoo wrote: »

They don't expect everyone to believe it, just enough so they can leverage the doubt.

Yup, it's about putting out anything that can muddy the waters and give people any reason to question all information

It's extremely effective in countries like Russia where information and media are heavily controlled/influenced

Cheerful Spring

Aegir wrote: »

Two Russian men in what, their mid thirties, decide to travel to London for a weekend and the only thing they want to see is Salisbury Cathedral, 150 km away.

sounds legit.

My gut is telling me that tourist explanation is bull****. You can never judge someone by looks alone but they don't look like your typical tourist. I think we need to see what kind of VISA they travelled to the UK with.

Billy86

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Billy86 post:
1. I said I like off-guardian.org and that hasn't changed.
2. If you think I'm going to read that rant you are mistaken.
3. I NEVER said I "don't care if what I read is Russian propaganda" - stop making up stuff, you can do better than that!

I showed you beyond doubt that OffGuardian was Russian propaganda, you didn't dispute it because you simply couldn't such is how obvious it is. And so, predictably as the day is long, and as you have shown here again, you just rammed your fingers in your ears and declared you like it anyway lalalalalalalala not listening lalalalalalala. It's as simple as that. This is why you can't be taken serious on matters involving Russia other than to fall under a good example of a troll (I don't think you are one to be honest) or a "useful idiot" as the term goes.

Dohnjoe

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Wrong. I called this Austin Powers farce a hoax SIX MONTHS ago.

It's your own personal belief not supported by anything credible. A belief that coincides exactly with your fringe world views (not the facts). There are people who believe the world is flat, that the moon landings are a hoax.

ohnonotgmail

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Seems like a major tourist attraction to me.

Exactly the sort of place that 2 russian men of military age would go to for the weekend.

robinph

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Seems like a major tourist attraction to me.

Half a million people a year is nothing, and that is probably counting the same few people who turn up every Sunday every time as well. Here is the top 50 tourist attractions, and there are three other cathedrals/ abbeys in there with 1 million + visitors each year:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uks-top-50-visitor-attractions-7509660

To show what a nonsense those kinds of numbers are though you'll notice that at number 11 is Birmingham Library?!?! It is an odd looking building admittedly, but those 2 million people are not flying 8 hours over from Moscow to come and see it on a day trip they are not even buying an "I 'heart' Birmingham Library" tshirt or soft toy.

suicide_circus

could they not have chosen a couple of agents that didn't look quite so stereotypically assassinish?

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Exactly the sort of place that 2 russian men of military age would go to for the weekend.

They're not civilians visiting the UK sites I not buying that for a second. Putin could be protecting them because they are Russian gangsters or rogue agents. The Russian state will still look after them if it was a rogue operation carried out. Putin ordered this is what stupidity to carry out a chemical attack on UK soil.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Half a million people a year is nothing, and that is probably counting the same few people who turn up every Sunday every time as well. Here is the top 50 tourist attractions, and there are three other cathedrals/ abbeys in there with 1 million + visitors each year:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uks-top-50-visitor-attractions-7509660

To show what a nonsense those kinds of numbers are though you'll notice that at number 11 is Birmingham Library?!?! It is an odd looking building admittedly, but those 2 million people are not flying 8 hours over from Moscow to come and see it on a day trip they are not even buying an "I 'heart' Birmingham Library" tshirt or soft toy.

maybe they were heading to stonehenge and got lost, or the "Slush" put them off. I doubt two Russians would be able to cope with a bit of snow.