Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

Cheerful Spring

cnocbui wrote: »

I can think of someone i would like to see get a 100g dose of it.

Local effects are immediate like straight away. I guess they were vomiting and getting sick while having dinner?. Would you not go home and rest up if you feel unwell?

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you mean the report that was corrected because a reporter used the wrong units? that is the hill you want to die on? I think they know themselves how much of a sample they have. They are scientists after all so you should accept what they say.

I like the British police to release CTV of the skiprals returning home. That would make their case stronger these men are involved.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Are you saying that they weren't poisoned by novichok? It seems to me that you're just throwing shít at the wall hoping that it will stick.

Charles Rowley said he found a sealed box it was not open. There has to be another batch if it's sealed.

Elmer Blooker

This is what you are up against Cheerful Spring.
You are clearly asking "difficult" questions which is when the thinly veiled abuse starts.

I wouldn't even argue with this guy

You don't even have a slight grasp on reality

It seems to me that you're just throwing sh at the wall

clearly you are determined to prove how obstinate a human can be.

You are trolling again.

He'll just move on to another debunked conspiracy theory

This is getting more ridiculous than your 911 thread.

I wouldn't even argue with this guy

WinnyThePoo

Elmer what's that Russian conspiracy site you trust again,?

cnocbui

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Elmer what's that Russian conspiracy site you trust again,?

theworldaccordingtovlad.com

Cheerful Spring

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This is what you are up against Cheerful Spring.
You are clearly asking "difficult" questions which is when the thinly veiled abuse starts.

I know what they are so opposed to seeing CTV video of Skiprals returning home between 12 noon and 1pm. It would go a long way to proofing the Skiprals were poisoned in the place the British police claim it happened.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I like the British police to release CTV of the skiprals returning home. That would make their case stronger these men are involved.

can you respond to the post you quoted?

cnocbui

Oh, look, more conspiracies from two other countries now - the Netherlands and Switzerland this time.

It's a conspiracy, I tell you!

Two Russian men were arrested earlier this year on suspicion of spying on a Swiss laboratory investigating the poisoning of Sergei Skripal, a newspaper investigation has claimed.

Swiss publication Tages Anzeiger and Dutch paper NRC said they were arrested in the Netherlands earlier this year.

The Swiss lab analysed samples from the poisoning of the former Russian double agent in the UK.

It has also dealt with suspected chemical weapons from the war in Syria.

The two men were expelled from The Netherlands shortly after their arrest, which had not been reported until now.

A spokeswoman for Swiss intelligence told the BBC that the agency had been actively involved in "the case of the Russian spies", without mentioning the laboratory at Spiez, near Bern.

But Tages Anzeiger said the Swiss intelligence agency had confirmed the findings of its joint investigation with NRC.

The report says the two men had equipment that could have been used to break into the laboratory's computer systems, and also alleged that they worked for Russian intelligence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45522614

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can you respond to the post you quoted?

The director general of the international chemical weapons watchdog told the New York Times, it was not a reporter who made the claim. He thought it was feasible since he made the claim.

100 grams is equivalent to 100ml. They found some Novitchok in liquid perfume bottle they are usually 50ml or higher?

Elmer Blooker

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Elmer what's that Russian conspiracy site you trust again,?

You tell me, find an example of this "Russian conspiracies/propaganda" that I post.
Go on then, what are you waiting for?

I'm saying that the transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine by Soviet dictator Khrushchev was illegal, is that Russian propaganda or a conspiracy theory?

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The director general of the international chemical weapons watchdog told the New York Times, it was not a reporter who made the claim. He thought it was feasible since he made the claim.

the 100g number that was originally reported was incorrect and subsequently corrected. why do you find something so simple so difficult to understand?

On 3 May 2018, the head of the OPCW, Ahmet ümcü, informed the New York Times that he had been told that about 50-100g of the nerve agent was thought to have been used in the attack, which indicated it was likely created for use as a weapon and was enough to kill a large number of people.[75] The next day however the OPCW made a correcting statement that the "quantity should probably be characterised in milligrams", though "the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

ohnonotgmail

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You tell me, find an example of this "Russian propaganda" that I post.
Go on then, what are you waiting for?

I'm saying that the transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine by Soviet dictator Khrushchev was illegal, is that Russian propaganda?

the transfer was agreed at a much later date by the russian state. an agreement they broke when they invaded crimea.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the 100g number that was originally reported was incorrect and subsequently corrected. why do you find something so simple so difficult to understand?

It was corrected based on the sample they received what don't you get.

Did you miss this part of the statement?

though "the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

OPCW cannot tell how much was used to poison the Skiprals.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It was corrected based on the sample they received what don't you get.

Did you miss this part of the statement?

though "the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

OPCW cannot tell how much was used to poison the Skiprals.

i think you need to go back to school.

WinnyThePoo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You tell me, find an example of this "Russian conspiracies/propaganda" that I post.
Go on then, what are you waiting for?

I'm saying that the transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine by Soviet dictator Khrushchev was illegal, is that Russian propaganda or a conspiracy theory?

Well, i want to thank Billy86 for the work.

but here....

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I noticed you ignored the link I posted earlier. I suppose that's propaganda?
I like off-guardian ... end of .. Any source that exposes the "rebels" in Syria for the blood thirsty terrorists that they are is good enough for me.
You stick to your sources and I'll stick to mine.

Oh and then Billy went further in a very informative post ,explained the site.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106482417&postcount=3284

So , I don't think anyone can you seriously or anything you post on Russian issues just like nobody can take CF seriously.

Couple of pees in a pod you could say.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i think you need to go back to school.

Quote though "the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

They could not determine the estimate or amount used is self-explanatory.

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Quote though "the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

They could not determine the estimate or amount used is self-explanatory.

the exact amount could not be determined. but the scale of the amount could be. would you agree that it was not tonnes of novichok? would agree it was not kg of novichoks? such amounts would be ludicrous. would you agree it was not micrograms of novichok? such small amounts would probably not be very effective. 1g of novichok would be enough to kill probably 1,000s. why would they bring that amount let alone 100g. can you understand how it is possible to logically deduce the scale of the amount used? can you understand now why trying to explain something to you is like trying to explain it to a 6 year old?

Elmer Blooker

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

So , I don't think anyone can you seriously or anything you post on Russian issues just like nobody can take CF seriously.

I read Billy's rantings six months ago, in fact it took almost six months to read it!
I said I like off-guardian, what's the big deal? I like BBC News 24 too, I know everything about Russia and Syria is fake news on that channel but I still watch it. I make my own mind up.

I noticed you ignored the link I posted earlier. I suppose that's propaganda?
I like off-guardian ... end of .. Any source that exposes the "rebels" in Syria for the blood thirsty terrorists that they are is good enough for me.
You stick to your sources and I'll stick to mine.

Cheerful Spring

Did some mapping of the men movements. In fact, the men were walking in the opposite direction from Skipral home. Still does mean they were not up there before 11.58?

Top left is Skipral house. And the red line is the direction they walking

Discodog

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There still no evidence these guys are Russian intelligence agents. What your proof they are? What if they are only Russian tourists? Can we really be certain they're not? Yes, I find their tourist story not credible, but that does not mean they were sent to Salisbury by Putin, to carry out out a hit.

You ignoring the evidence so far. The Skiprals left their home at just after 9 am, there no CTV footage released of them returning home. This is problematic because they were spotted leaving home and moving around to different locations in Salisbury town. If they did not return home they were not poisoned by Novitchok on the doorknob, the Russians did not arrive in Salisbury till late after 11 am The Skiprals turned off their phones at the same time British police confirmed this finding. It likely they were trying to avoid surveillance that day, and they possibly were heading out to meet someone? The Novitchok bottle found in Charlie Rowley home was plastic wrapped and sealed? Impossible this was the same batch used to poison Skipral and his daughter. There many discrepancies that you are overlooking.

What proof would you accept ? You expect them or Vlad to admit it ? You expect UK Intelligence to explain how they know & allow you special access to their methods ?

Billy86

Elmer yesterday...

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

If you think I'm going to read that rant you are mistaken.

Elmer today...

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I read Billy's rantings six months ago...

Seems like a reliable, trustworthy poster alright. :pac:

Fact is, Elmer says what suits at any given moment because Elmer can't actually refute what I showed him in that post - all he can do it ram his fingers in his ears and scream "lalalalala I can't hear you lalalalala", which says all it needs to.

Cheerful Spring

11.58: They are then spotted in Wilton Road in Salisbury, a short distance from Christie Miller Road, Mr Skripal’s address. Police say this is moments before the attack.


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/05/two-russians-named-as-suspects-behind-novichok-poisoning-in-salisbury-7915987/?ito=cbshare

That's not right the men were walking away in the opposite direction down the road.

Cheerful Spring

Discodog wrote: »

What proof would you accept ? You expect them or Vlad to admit it ? You expect UK Intelligence to explain how they know & allow you special access to their methods ?

Where were the Skiprals between 9 am and 1.30pm? I like to know that. There 3 hours they are unaccounted for. We know they left home at 9.15 am and then they reappeared again around 1.30pm. You see images of Skipral driving his BMW around after 1.30pm pm and again at close to 3 pm, you can't see his daughter the images are not high resolution.

We know these men were not up at Skipral home at 11.58. If they were up there it was before that probably between 11.30 and 11.50. That's a good walk on foot.

Discodog

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Where were the Skiprals between 9 am and 12 noon? I like to know that. There 3 hours they are unaccounted for. We know they left home at around 9am and then they reappeared again around 1.15 or 1.30pm. You see images of Skipral driving his BMW around after 1 pm and again at close to 3 pm, you can't see his daughter the images are not high resolution.

We know these men were not up at Skipral home at 11.58. If they were up there it was before that probably between 11.30 and 11.50. That's a good walk on foot.

You copy Vlad & just ignore the question. You really think that all the evidence is on the internet just for you. Of course the police will show their hand ? :rolleyes:

Cheerful Spring

Discodog wrote: »

What proof would you accept ? You expect them or Vlad to admit it ? You expect UK Intelligence to explain how they know & allow you special access to their methods ?

The case rests on the Skiprals returning home between 9 am and 1 pm. If they have not these guys are innocent.

We know Skipral left after 9 am in his BMW so he must have returned. Why is there no CTV of him returning they have not released an image yet of this happening.

Cheerful Spring

Why are people assuming Skipral did not know these guys? Is it possible they came to meet Skipral and they attacked him then? Nobody seems to care where Skipral was between 9 am and 1 pm. Knowing his movements from 9 am to 1 pm we have a better understanding of what has taken place.

Cheerful Spring

What I think happened is the Skiprals were poisoned somewhere on the streets near the Zizzi restaurant it was only a short time later they were found. If you look where Dawn Sturgess was living she was around the opposite corner staying in a shelter. The culprit probably dropped the bottle in the rubbish nearby when they made their escape. It was wrapped in plastic that could have just been around the box.

Police have a lot of explaining to do how a bottle with Novitchok ended up in the rubbish in Amesbury that literally 8 miles north of Salisbury. But if Charles Rowley found a bottle near Dawn home that would explain how he got the bottle.

Cheerful Spring

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I read Billy's rantings six months ago, in fact it took almost six months to read it!
I said I like off-guardian, what's the big deal? I like BBC News 24 too, I know everything about Russia and Syria is fake news on that channel but I still watch it. I make my own mind up.

The more I think about it nothing about this adds up. There has to be another Russian hit team for this narrative to work.

Charlie Rowley finding a novitchok bottle has put a spanner in the works. There no possible way Charlie Rowley found a Novitchok bottle near Skipral home.

That Dawn Sturgess just lives around the corner from the Zizzi Resturant is a big clue where they were poisoned. The UK is just looking to blame Russians and ignoring the evidence.

mcmoustache

Could the Russians here tell me if this is fake?

There's a report saying that the poisoner's' passports are a little suspect. My Russian isn't great and I's not too familiar with the non-state media landscape over there.

The leaked document in the link suggest that the two people are GRU operatives.

UsedToWait

Yiz are wasting your brain cells debating with a 9/11 conspiracy loon.

mcmoustache

UsedToWait wrote: »

Yiz are wasting your brain cells debating with a 9/11 conspiracy loon.

You're correct but it's important sometimes to correct nonsense. The longer he spends tinfoil-hatting, the more discredited he becomes. Anyone who wasn't familiar with the event who winds up in here for whatever reason will see that it's almost all nonsense that conjures up images of Charlie Day with a whiteboard.

batgoat

mcmoustache wrote: »

You're correct but it's important sometimes to correct nonsense. The longer he spends tinfoil-hatting, the more discredited he becomes. Anyone who wasn't familiar with the event who winds up in here for whatever reason will see that it's almost all nonsense that conjures up images of Charlie Day with a whiteboard.

Also worth noting that the other incredibly pro Russia poster spent days defending Russia on MH17 crash, claiming that they didn't supply weapons that resulted in it being shot down. Still would I imagine...

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

You're correct but it's important sometimes to correct nonsense. The longer he spends tinfoil-hatting, the more discredited he becomes. Anyone who wasn't familiar with the event who winds up in here for whatever reason will see that it's almost all nonsense that conjures up images of Charlie Day with a whiteboard.

I have researched 9/11 and you haven't so your opinion is just that an opinion. If you can support the official version you free to debate me on it.

I use common sense do you think the Russians travelled to Amesbury 8 miles from Salisbury. Is not a fact the British police claim the Russians headed to train station and left for London, that day? So who planted the Novitchok in Amesbury?

mcmoustache

I found an article on bellingcat with some interesting information. I'm not too familiar with them but according to mediabiasfactcheck, they are respectable enough.

Original Russian documents reviewed by Bellingcat and The Insider confirm definitively that the two men were registered in the central Russian resident database under the names Alexander Yevgenievich Petrov and Ruslan Timurovich Boshirov, respectively, and were issued internal passports under these names in 2009. However, no records exist for these two personas prior to 2009. This suggests the two names were likely cover identities for operatives of one of the Russian security services. Crucially, at least one man’s passport files contain various “top-secret” markings, which, according to at least two sources consulted by Bellingcat, are typically reserved for members of secret services or top state operatives.

These findings, along with peculiarities in the two men’s bookings of their flight to London, make Russia’s official statements that Petrov and Boshirov are civilian tourists implausible, and corroborate UK authorities’ claims that they are in fact officers of a Russian security service.

Aeroflot’s passenger manifest, reviewed by Bellingcat and The Insider, discredits Petrov and Boshirov’s claims, made in the RT interview, that they had been planning their visit to Salisbury for a long time. The manifest records the times of booking, check-in, and boarding of each passenger. In the case of the two suspects, they made their initial booking – and checked in online – at 20:00 GMT (22:00 Moscow time) on 1 March 2018, the night before their short trip to London and Salisbury.

Alexander Petrov’s passport dossier is marked with a stamp containing the instruction “Do not provide any information”. This stamp does not exist in standard civilian passport files. A source working in the Russian police force who regularly works with the central database confirmed to Bellingcat and The Insider that they have never seen such a stamp on any passport form in their career. That source surmised that this marking reserved for operatives of the state under deep cover.

Adding additional credence to the hypothesis that Alexander Petrov’s persona is a cover identity comes from another page in his passport file, which is reserved for input of biographical data. In Mr. Petrov’s case, this page is left blank, and in addition to the same stamp “Do not provide information”, a hand-written note is added with the text “There is a letter. S.S.”. Per the same source interviewed for this story, S.S. is a common abbreviation for “sovershenno sekretno”, Russian for “top secret”.

As I said, I'm not too familiar with the non-state media landscape in Russia but given the shíte being spewed here already, this information is rather interesting.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I have researched 9/11 and you haven't so your opinion is just that an opinion. If you can support the official version you free to debate me on it.

I'm not debating 9/11 with you. Your style is to posit an argument, get it debunked, move on to another, get it debunked and go back to the first one. It's like you have no memory.

Cheerful Spring

UsedToWait wrote: »

Yiz are wasting your brain cells debating with a 9/11 conspiracy loon.

You guys often get hot and bothered when real questions are asked. Throwing tantrums and insulting me and others is just a childish tactic.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm not debating 9/11 with you. Your style is to posit an argument, get it debunked, move on to another, get it debunked and go back to the first one. It's like you have no memory.

You can't answer my question just admit it. Have you any theory at all?

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You can't answer my question just admit it. Have you any theory at all?

Yeah. A bunch of Saudis hijacked some planes and flew them into the twin towers.


What do you think of the report from bellingccat that I provided? Do you still think these guys aren't GRU?

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Yeah. A bunch of Saudis hijacked some planes and flew them into the twin towers.


What do you think of the report from bellingccat that I provided? Do you still think these guys aren't GRU?

So that's your answer? There was a Novitchok perfume found and British police claim it was found in Amesbury, 8 miles north of Salisbury. When they get the time to head out there?

The timeline is they got off the train, headed to skipral house, walked back jumped on the train and headed to London and caught a flight home.

Yes, Saudis hijacked and crashed planes, I agree. But is that the extent of your knowledge watching the events on TV?

Cheerful Spring

They only theory that makes sense is Charlie Rowley found the bottle near Dawn Sturgess home. Which just happened to be around the corner where the Skiprals were having dinner at 3.30pm. Does light up not go off in your head mcmoustache that this likely the area the Skiprals were attacked? That a woman who died from Novichok was living close by and a bottle of this stuff was found by her boyfriend who likely took it home with him?

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They only theory that makes sense is

No. You have shown yourself to not know sense. When something is obvious and verifiable, it doesn't make sense to you. When other's point out that your ideas make no sense, you don't understand it.


It has became clear that your incapable of making or understanding sense but that's not surprising since that's the whole point of Russian state media - nothing makes sense, the truth is unknowable and every crackpot idea is equally probable.

VonZan

mcmoustache wrote: »

Could the Russians here tell me if this is fake?

There's a report saying that the poisoner's' passports are a little suspect. My Russian isn't great and I's not too familiar with the non-state media landscape over there.

The leaked document in the link suggest that the two people are GRU operatives.

The Intercept piece cited in that article is quite an interesting read as you say. Something tells me this isn't going away any time soon.

indioblack

mcmoustache wrote: »

No. You have shown yourself to not know sense. When something is obvious and verifiable, it doesn't make sense to you. When other's point out that your ideas make no sense, you don't understand it.


It has became clear that your incapable of making or understanding sense but that's not surprising since that's the whole point of Russian state media - nothing makes sense, the truth is unknowable and every crackpot idea is equally probable.

The poster you're responding to seems more interested in proving others wrong - a person died in this business.

mcmoustache

VonZan wrote: »

The Intercept piece cited in that article is quite an interesting read!

I didn't see an intercept piece there.



I don't know the non-state Russian-language media to trust the source. If it was the BBC, NYT, WaPo or Al Jazeera, I'd be more confident in their findings.

mcmoustache

indioblack wrote: »

The poster you're responding to seems more interested in proving others wrong - a person died in this business.

It's simpler than that. He's pulling a Hannity when it comes to tides. He just says "It makes no sense".


It's just the firehose of falsehood. If you consumed enough RT bollox, you'd probably end up the same.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I have researched 9/11 and you haven't so your opinion is just that an opinion. If you can support the official version you free to debate me on it.

Yeah, "researched" 911 in the same way moon landing hoaxers have "researched" their favorite subject

You have a pattern of supporting ridiculous far-fetched theories, you support holocaust denial, you are a keen supporter of Kremlin propaganda - fine, those are your opinions

But the issue is that you often state them as fact and drag them into countless current affairs threads. People then need to correct the misinformation - but that only results in opening a Pandora's box of whataboutery and more nonsense, which is what all these threads seem to descend into

It's the new Godwin.

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Yeah, "researched" 911 in the same way moon landing hoaxers have "researched" their favorite subject

You have a pattern of supporting ridiculous far-fetched theories, you support holocaust denial, you are a keen supporter of Kremlin propaganda - fine, those are your opinions

But the issue is that you often state them as fact and drag them into countless current affairs threads. People then need to correct the misinformation - but that only results in opening a Pandora's box of whataboutery and more nonsense, which is what all these threads seem to descend into

It's the new Godwin.

Well, this thread should be of interest to you. Since you always accusing me of lying about 9/11. Seems some of your friends on the JREF forum are waking up to some of the realities of 9/11.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331859&page=2

Oystein comments should be of interest since his the most popular 9/11 Skeptic on JREF

Are you going claim Oystein doesn't know anything his highly regarded in the Skeptic 9/11 community?

Quote
Too many in this forum are too quick, in my opinion, to dismiss out of hand hypotheses that true higher-ups in the Saudi power elite - I am talking government and Princes level - have knowingly co-conspired and willingly enabled 9/11. There IS initial evidence that, specifically, Prince Bandar had a hand in it all, and there IS some evidence that whatever was known about those ties before 9/11 has been handled in such a sorry way that closer scrutiny is warranted.

Dohnjoe why don't you inform people to who Prince Bandar is?

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

I found an article on bellingcat with some interesting information. I'm not too familiar with them but according to mediabiasfactcheck, they are respectable enough.


As I said, I'm not too familiar with the non-state media landscape in Russia but given the shíte being spewed here already, this information is rather interesting.

I have only gone through some of this but this could be why they could not find records prior. In 2006 biometric passports were introduced in Russia. Russians will be replacing their old passports with new ones. That Bellingcut could not find their names on records prior to 2009 they made the leap they must be Russian spies? Maybe their names were not computerised yet on whatever system the Russians were using in the update?

Cheerful Spring

A comment that I found funny but informative.

So, you can go to the central Russian Passport registration database and look-up to see if anyone is a government spy. What a marvellous system! I wonder why MI6 didn’t know it was this simple.