Architect's consultation and fees

parazard

As we would like to maybe extend (quite a small extension) our house I got an initial assessment with an architect the aim of which was to get an idea of what might be feasible. We discussed what we would like and need as well as our budget which would be in the 30-50k region at a stretch. The architect gave a few ideas then said that he had done similar jobs around the 30k mark details of which he would send on. He said he would follow up with an outline of what with discussed as well as fees' proposal.
We received this which stated that what we had discussed could be completed for around 65k including vat. His fees would be 2800+vat, 2200+vat and 2500+vat for the three phases.

My questions:
1- is it me or he didn't fulfill the main purpose of the meeting i.e. identify what is possible WITHIN a certain budget (as opposed to in absolute terms)
2- his fees seem to work out just below the 12% of building costs when vat of building costs is included. Don't they seem a bit high?
3- he charged for this consultation... do I need to keep paying architects for this until I find the right one?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and please let me know if I am missing something and am being paranoid

kafka2018

Hi Parazard,

It is not unusually for an Architect to charge for the initial consultation, an Architect is giving up their time, advice and experience so a small fee for this is not unreasonable.

The latest RIAI fee survey suggests that Architects fees range from 5% to 15% of the estimate project costs. There is some useful information on the RIAI website in relation to fee scales and scope of work.

If you feel the Architect has gone over budget with his estimate then you should ask him what is viable for your 35-50k budget, it might mean reducing the proposed floor area or simplifying materials.

I hope the above is of some help. In the interest of full disclosure I am a fully qualified RIAI Architect.

Gumbo

parazard wrote: »

As we would like to maybe extend (quite a small extension) our house I got an initial assessment with an architect the aim of which was to get an idea of what might be feasible. We discussed what we would like and need as well as our budget which would be in the 30-50k region at a stretch. The architect gave a few ideas then said that he had done similar jobs around the 30k mark details of which he would send on. He said he would follow up with an outline of what with discussed as well as fees' proposal.
We received this which stated that what we had discussed could be completed for around 65k including vat. His fees would be 2800+vat, 2200+vat and 2500+vat for the three phases.

My questions:
1- is it me or he didn't fulfill the main purpose of the meeting i.e. identify what is possible WITHIN a certain budget (as opposed to in absolute terms)
2- his fees seem to work out just below the 12% of building costs when vat of building costs is included. Don't they seem a bit high?
3- he charged for this consultation... do I need to keep paying architects for this until I find the right one?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and please let me know if I am missing something and am being paranoid

Surely you don’t expect the architect to give you his ideas on power while only paying a consultation fee?

If you like him, then he will develop the idea into drawings etc
I wouldn’t expect any drawings from the consultation, a scribble sketch would be a bonus but noting with regards to any kind of viable drawing/sketch.

1. Exact budget cannot be determined until drawings are done and passed to a QS for definitive pricing.

2. Scale of provisions would probably apply. You’d find that the fees would be the same for a job half your price also, the % figure is just a guideline and not one that can be exactly worked out.

3. If you want constant consultations, then yes. Although some
Charge and some don’t for the initial meeting but most would in order to cover the time out of the office and travel/parking/tolls etc

parazard

Thank you and absolutely I wouldn't expect a free service and am very happy to pay professionals for their expertise. However I can't help but feel I didn't get what I paid for.

My question for the architect was what can be done for 35-50k, given we would like a,b and c. When we met he said it could be done for our budget, then came back with 'you can get a,b and c for 75k'. When I said that is all very well however my budget is much less so what can I get for that? His reply was a vague something if we make the right compromises (however my fees will only change should the scale of the work substantially change).

I'm none the wiser as to whether mine is a viable project at all, which I thought was the whole point of the assessment.

Gumbo

parazard wrote: »

Thank you and absolutely I wouldn't expect a free service and am very happy to pay professionals for their expertise. However I can't help but feel I didn't get what I paid for.

My question for the architect was what can be done for 35-50k, given we would like a,b and c. When we met he said it could be done for our budget, then came back with 'you can get a,b and c for 75k'. When I said that is all very well however my budget is much less so what can I get for that? His reply was a vague something if we make the right compromises (however my fees will only change should the scale of the work substantially change).

I'm none the wiser as to whether mine is a viable project at all, which I thought was the whole point of the assessment.

Can you roighlynoutline here what you want for 35-50k
Maybe we can offer some free advice.

Calahonda52

How long was he with you?
what did he charge for the consultation plus the document he sent you.
I would go back to him and tell him that 65 is beyond your budget.
30 to 50 is a bit wide really so tighten up the range and give him a number to work with

parazard

kceire wrote: »

Can you roighlynoutline here what you want for 35-50k
Maybe we can offer some free advice.

Thank you that's a very kind offer. I have a terraced period house about 80m2 with a tiny kitchen in a dubious extension at the back (about 3.5x1.5m). I'm looking to rebuild the extension and connect it to the rest of the house (it's to one side only now, it could be stretched to the back of the sitting room to get an extra 1m or so). I can't go too far out as only have a smallish yard at rear (maybe 5x6m). We also have a very small bathroom and would be nice to make it bigger to fit a bath by building up also. Nice to have would be some minor reconfiguration of existing living space so as to create two separate living spaces instead of the one only we have at the moment.

All ideas very welcome!

parazard

Calahonda52 wrote: »

How long was he with you?
what did he charge for the consultation plus the document he sent you.
I would go back to him and tell him that 65 is beyond your budget.
30 to 50 is a bit wide really so tighten up the range and give him a number to work with

He charged 250 for it. I had said budget was 30-40, 50 at a maximum stretch. Would it be reasonable to ask him to tell me what my budget could get me in more detail at this stage rather than what he thinks could be done and how much that would cost (which is interesting but not very useful)

Gumbo

parazard wrote: »

Thank you that's a very kind offer. I have a terraced period house about 80m2 with a tiny kitchen in a dubious extension at the back (about 3.5x1.5m). I'm looking to rebuild the extension and connect it to the rest of the house (it's to one side only now, it could be stretched to the back of the sitting room to get an extra 1m or so). I can't go too far out as only have a smallish yard at rear (maybe 5x6m). We also have a very small bathroom and would be nice to make it bigger to fit a bath by building up also. Nice to have would be some minor reconfiguration of existing living space so as to create two separate living spaces instead of the one only we have at the moment.

All ideas very welcome!

50 would be the bare minimum here in my opinion.
Terrace house, everything has to go through it in a wheelbarrow!

Does your budget include the planning process?

The 6x5 extension will eat up 40-45k on its own. That’s before you budget for materials being hand carried through the house. Then upstairs will require structural work and this then brings in the planning process. Then the reconfiguration of the existing house. 50 is not enough to think about it.

parazard

kceire wrote: »

50 would be the bare minimum here in my opinion.
Terrace house, everything has to go through it in a wheelbarrow!

Does your budget include the planning process?

The 6x5 extension will eat up 40-45k on its own. That’s before you budget for materials being hand carried through the house. Then upstairs will require structural work and this then brings in the planning process. Then the reconfiguration of the existing house. 50 is not enough to think about it.

Thank you. I forgot to mention there is very good access through the rear so that wouldn't be an issue. Also the ground extension would only be Max 3x4m (4x6 is the size of the yard). Would that change things?

Mellor

parazard wrote: »

1- is it me or he didn't fulfill the main purpose of the meeting i.e. identify what is possible WITHIN a certain budget (as opposed to in absolute terms)

If you read your OP as well as post #7, that's not what you actually asked.

We discussed what we would like and need as well as our budget which would be in the 30-50k region at a stretch

You told him what you wanted. And what the budget was. But those two aren't connected. So he told you what it would cost to get what you wanted.

If you wanted to spend 40k, so shouldn't have said "we have 40k what would you suggest?". At this point I'd go back and work that into the correspondence.

2- his fees seem to work out just below the 12% of building costs when vat of building costs is included. Don't they seem a bit high?

Smaller projects will typically have higher % fees. Economies of scale and all that.

3- he charged for this consultation... do I need to keep paying architects for this until I find the right one?

So charge, some don't, some do both.
Generally you'll get a more detailed consult for a small fee.

As I said, I'd go back, see what's suggested for your budget.
They get two more quote from other professionals.

parazard

Thank you all. This is all quite useful.

snowcat

On a side note make sure you are dealing with an actual architect. I lost a lot of money to a conman in Limerick advertising as '....... Plannng and Architectural Services'. Turned out he was not an architect and has conned a lot of other people. Seemingly there is nothing illegal about using the word 'Services".

Calahonda52

parazard wrote: »

Thank you all. This is all quite useful.

The key is can you work with him, if you sense you can't then ask for the clarification that Mellor outlines and then move on.

Nothing worse, for client or professional, if the personal chemistry to work well professionally together is not there: e.g.: neither party wants the reaction when they see phone call for email, "Oh not him again..."

Gumbo

parazard wrote: »

Thank you. I forgot to mention there is very good access through the rear so that wouldn't be an issue. Also the ground extension would only be Max 3x4m (4x6 is the size of the yard). Would that change things?

Are you aware that planning is required then?

In your other post you mention 5x6, where did this come from?

Once planning is obtained and paid for then, 3x4 extension could be about 20-25k basic building. Then finishes.

Upstairs size?
Renovation.
Even at this smaller size, I don’t think 50k will finish it.

jmBuildExt

OP said ..." I have a terraced period house about 80m2 with a tiny kitchen in a dubious extension at the back (about 3.5x1.5m). I'm looking to rebuild the extension"
Im assuming it goes 1.5m beyond the existing house and runs 3.5m along it.

Then OP said...."and connect it to the rest of the house (it's to one side only now, it could be stretched to the back of the sitting room to get an extra 1m or so)"
So im assuming op wants to rebuild it but make it "the length of the itting room" longer, running adjacent to the existing house.

Then op said " I can't go too far out as only have a smallish yard at rear (maybe 5x6m)"
Thats the size of the garden part.

Then op said "We also have a very small bathroom and would be nice to make it bigger to fit a bath by building up also."
This is where your planning comes in parazard..

If you decide to leave this out and just do the ground floor extension, check your measurements on the rest of the back garden to make sure you leave 25 sqm - if remainder is less, planning will kick in again.
Cant offer any idea on pricing you might be best off talking to a builder to get a feel for it.
Be mindful though that a builder might spec minimal materials to make it cheaper. That may not be better - i.e. you may end up with poorly insulated structure for example. If i were you id consult an engineer once you decide what you want or can afford.
Sometimes this stuff is catch 22 and hard to get info sometimes without significant outlay.

Mellor

snowcat wrote: »

On a side note make sure you are dealing with an actual architect. I lost a lot of money to a conman in Limerick advertising as '....... Plannng and Architectural Services'. Turned out he was not an architect and has conned a lot of other people. Seemingly there is nothing illegal about using the word 'Services".

If he didn't say he was an architect, then not being an architect doesn't make him a conman. Architects aren't the only design professionals capable of offering architectural services.

parazard

kceire wrote: »

Are you aware that planning is required then?

In your other post you mention 5x6, where did this come from?

Once planning is obtained and paid for then, 3x4 extension could be about 20-25k basic building. Then finishes.


Upstairs size?
Renovation.
Even at this smaller size, I don’t think 50k will finish it.

Yes I am aware we will need permission. 5x6 is the approximate size of the yard to give an idea of how much (or little) space we have to extend.

Upstairs would have to me smaller so roughly 2x3. No renovation needed otherwise maybe knocking a non bearing wall and maybe putting up a sliding door between two rooms.

diggerdigger

50k sounds tight for what you are looking to do. But, you could also get an engineer to do the drawings if you know what you want, slightly cheaper.

If you keep it withing the planning exemptions, you don't need to go through the planning process; area of house is not increased more than 40sqm, for terraced/semi-d extension above ground level does not exceed 12 sqm, extension above grnd fl must be 2m from boundary and garden cannot be reduced below 25sqm.

An engineer can spec the build to whatever standard you want, but it needs to be within regs. The builder will build it. then engineer certifies compliance. It would probably cost 2-3k+vat for engineer.

But, engineers are not architects, and you may end up with a lesser "designed" product from a light, flow and usability perspective. Personally I think its easy to spot the extension that was done with just a builder, an engineer and a builder, and the architect+all. You kinda get what you pay for.

And you will have to do all the tendering with the builders yourself, which an architect would usually handle, and would also know the reputations, etc.

snowcat

Mellor wrote: »

If he didn't say he was an architect, then not being an architect doesn't make him a conman. Architects aren't the only design professionals capable of offering architectural services.

This guy takes up to 5 applications a week in Limerick alone. He takes everything extensions, new builds, commercial, change of use. Promises everything. Asks to be paid upfront. Submits some planning application which is typically returned with more information required. Then he disappears and blames the client for giving him incorrect information. I personally know 20 plus people he has conned with this tactic. There is potentially hundreds as he is operating nationwide. Limerick city council are well aware of him but there is little they can do according to them.

Mellor

snowcat wrote: »

This guy takes up to 5 applications a week in Limerick alone. He takes everything extensions, new builds, commercial, change of use.

That's not unusual tbh.

Submits some planning application which is typically returned with more information required. Then he disappears and blames the client for giving him incorrect information.

RFI's are not unusually either.
What happens after that? If he is dropping the job, surely he loses the rest of the fee.

snowcat

Mellor wrote: »

That's not unusual tbh.



RFI's are not unusually either.
What happens after that? If he is dropping the job, surely he loses the rest of the fee.

He usually charges about 70% upfront. He has his money at that stage. Ignores phone calls emails after that and has an office with a door that is never open or opened.
It is not unusual to see people outside his door looking in the windows trying to locate him.

BryanF

One rotten apple doesn’t mean the whole industry should be avoided. As an arch tech I would fall into the category of ‘architectural services’.

report this individual to the guards and leave the hearsay to the pub

Mellor

snowcat wrote: »

He usually charges about 70% upfront.

If somebody pays 70% of build costs upfront they are a fool tbh.
If what you say is true, I'm sure this guy is getting clean out regularly in court. Open and shut case.

snowcat

BryanF wrote: »

One rotten apple doesn’t mean the whole industry should be avoided. As an arch tech I would fall into the category of ‘architectural services’.

report this individual to the guards and leave the hearsay to the pub

He has been reported and been arrested and released but is still continuing to do the same.
He is not even a tech. Has some cert in planning. Not even sure if that cert is legit or made up.
Either way what he is doing is not illegal so people beware. Anyone can set up a Planning and Architectural Services business with zero qualifications and start accepting large sums of money with practically zero repercussions. Seemingly if you do some sort of drawings and submit the application you are covered under law.
Some sort of regulation is needed to keep conmen out of your business. At a minimum if you advertise Planning or Architectural Services you should be obliged to have minimum relevant qualifications.

snowcat

Mellor wrote: »

If somebody pays 70% of build costs upfront they are a fool tbh.
If what you say is true, I'm sure this guy is getting clean out regularly in court. Open and shut case.

Not build costs. Planning costs. Typically 1.5k plus. Its not an open and shut case as any lawyer will tell you. Its difficult to sue someone for being incompetent. His defence is that he drafted the drawings and submitted the application. Unless it is a very simple application he disappears and blames the client for the failed application or refused permission.