Drought....Hosepipe Ban.... next they'll be calling for Water meters

railer201

So let's suppose we all have water meters and are being charged €3 per 1000 litres (ballpark charge in UK). We go to Lidl and buy that swimming pool - bring it home and fill it for € 21. Is that all, sure let's power hose the driveway while we're at it - another few euro.

Where's the incentive to conserve, sounds like a bargain to me - we're paying for it now - let's get value.

demanufactured

Hitman3000 wrote: »

They have water meters in much of the UK and pay charges yet frequent hose pipe bans.....

Because they pay council charges which covers an awful lot.

Blazer

Benteke wrote: »

But it will be privatised if it was happen and now you would be willing to pay, While you have a new change of attitude you might as well ask the government if you can pay your paye twice while you're at it

Did you see the part where I said that it should be enshrined into law that it must remain as part of the public ownership? Under no circumstances should it be allowed to be privatised. I think everyone who agreed we should pay for water etc would agree on this?

NIMAN

I drove past 3 different Road side car washs today in the nw, every one of them had a queue of cars waiting to be washed.

Do people not listen to the news?
In drought conditions, with hosepipe bans, do people really need their cars washed?

goat2

I have been using two water butts with last 5 yrs., washing cars, windows, footpaths, and watering plants, love them, I think they would save every one money , plenty rain falling most of the time, and all free, would never go back to the hose, I just use sponge with car wash product and then use watering can on the car to rinse it off, comes up great always,

wexie

NIMAN wrote: »

I drove past 3 different Road side car washs today in the nw, every one of them had a queue of cars waiting to be washed.

Do people not listen to the news?
In drought conditions, with hosepipe bans, do people really need their cars washed?

well.....they're not allowed to do it at home...

(also a lot of car washes actually recycle the water they use, not sure quite how efficient it is but it's not all draining away either)

Same here, I saw 4 cars getting washed at one time today at one car wash in Dublin.

NIMAN

wexie wrote: »

well.....they're not allowed to do it at home...

(also a lot of car washes actually recycle the water they use, not sure quite how efficient it is but it's not all draining away either)

Believe me, the guys I seen washing cars have zero recycling ability.

I would doubt they even pay taxes.

circadian

NIMAN wrote: »

I drove past 3 different Road side car washs today in the nw, every one of them had a queue of cars waiting to be washed.

Do people not listen to the news?
In drought conditions, with hosepipe bans, do people really need their cars washed?

You know as well I do that most Derry folk don't give a flying **** about what they're asked/told not to do.

wexie

NIMAN wrote: »

Believe me, the guys I seen washing cars have zero recycling ability.

I would doubt they even pay taxes.

Oh you mean not an actual carwash like? Just a few guys by the side of the road with buckets and sponges?

Geez, some bloody ban this is....

Everybody!! We gotta conserve water so we're implementing a hosepipe ban!

Well eh....what will you do if you ignore it?

Eh...well....dirty looks and some tut tutting

Righty.....carry on

:rolleyes:

jester77

RandomName2 wrote: »

A band aid over a gaping wound.

Meters don't make it rain more, or make the reservoirs bigger, or reduce the population of Dublin.

Even if there were meters in place it would only give a couple more weeks reprive before a hose-pipe ban got put in place. The drought isn't caused by a lack of metering. It's not even caused by the leaks in all the pipes. It due to the lack of rain.

Infrastructural investment, in the form of more numerous reservoirs, and replaced piping systems is important. Hopefully we might see it happen at some point. Nothing's stopping the government from investing in it.

We did invest a billion euro in Irish Water though. That's been really useful. :mad:

You got to start somewhere. I live in a city with a population of just under 2 million, this little bit of warm weather that Ireland is having is the norm here in the summer. Never any issues with water supply. Everyone has a meter and everyone pays, my monthly bill is €174, that covers cold water and warm water that is piped into the house, plus it covers the treatment of waste water leaving the house.

You don't get nice things if you don't pay for them.

Heard on the radio this morning thaton top of the hose pipe ban, we are facing water being turned off overnight.

NIMAN

jester77 wrote: »

You don't get nice things if you don't pay for them.

Unfortunately we have bred a generation of people here in Ireland now who want everything for nothing, and refuse to pay for decent services.

Benteke

NIMAN wrote: »

Unfortunately we have bred a generation of people here in Ireland now who want everything for nothing, and refuse to pay for decent services.

Problem you're missing is we're already paying for it but sadly we have bred a generation of people in Ireland who like to bend over and get shafted and like to pay for everything twice for shoddy services

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Benteke wrote: »

Problem you're missing is we're already paying for it but sadly we have bred a generation of people in Ireland who like to bend over and get shafted and like to pay for everything twice for shoddy services

That argument just doesn't work. Some people pay the same taxes and have no public water or sewage provided. Others have all the services and pay nothing. Why not have free buses, as the tax payer can just subsidise Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus fully? Why do you pay for a passport or driver's licence when you've paid your taxes? Let's have free electricity and gas paid for from direct taxation.

Mr. teddywinkles

jooksavage wrote: »

This 100%. There are bigger things at stake here than rhetorical arguments about universal rights to this or that. The water situation in this country needs to be addressed and the money needs to come from somewhere. You can't drink your principles.

It's waste of tax payers money in various other areas of the countries budget is the problem. Nothing else.

goat2

It really is not about who is paying for the water, but how we use it, and car wash stations should not be operating, if we are banned at home from using it to wash cars at moment, I think that we should all try to have some water butts handy they are a great source of water when all else is gone, now there is talk of they stopping supply at night, right in the middle of tourist season, restaurant operation is going to be affected if this come into force,

wexie

goat2 wrote: »

It really is not about who is paying for the water, but how we use it, and car wash stations should not be operating, if we are banned at home from using it to wash cars at moment,

Many modern car washes use water reclamation/recycling systems.
Making them a lot more efficient than doing it at home using a hose. Considering they are paying for their water it makes sense for them to invest in a system that re-uses a resource they are paying for.

Not sure if it's a requirement of planning for one in Ireland (wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't to be honest) but it is in many other countries.

https://www.carwash.ie/water-treatment

Henwin

we run a dairy farm here and have our own well, the old one gave up so we sunk a new one. it cost 6000 all together, it also needs maintaining and uses a fair bit of electricity to run. I have no problem with this but i also feel that everyone should pay by usage for the amount they use. it costs money to get the water into ur house and dispose of it and there wud be less waste if u are charged

kurtainsider

NIMAN wrote: »

Unfortunately we have bred a generation of people here in Ireland now who want everything for nothing, and refuse to pay for decent services.

The point you're missing is that we already pay for it. The water metering scam was a shakedown to get us to pay or it twice.

Perhaps the government might offer an olive branch to the taxpayer next budget and reduce VAT on KY Jelly and Vaseline to 0% as a token of good will and an incentive for us all to lube up just another little bit.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

kurtainsider wrote: »

The point you're missing is that we already pay for it. The water metering scam was a shakedown to get us to pay or it twice.

What about those who currently don't pay anything? Or those, who by your reckoning, are paying and not receiving any? Or those paying, again by your reasoning, but using twice as much as others do?

suicide_circus

I presume people who are opposed to water charges are also opposed to inheritance tax on the basis that tax has already been paid on that cash and the principle of not paying twice still stands?

kurtainsider

Kyla Ambitious Sleepyhead wrote: »

What about those who currently don't pay anything? Or those, who by your reckoning, are paying and not receiving any? Or those paying, again by your reasoning, but using twice as much as others do?

What about them? I'm just making a simple point that the moronically clumsy attempt by the FG government to package the Irish people's water resources up and give them (not even sell them) to private owners was seen for the scam that it was. That's all.

BTW - I'm taxed to the maximum legal limit by the Revenue but provide my own water from a private well but I'm not making anything of that. My view is that the people of Ireland shouldn't give away our valuable water resources to private ownership.

Outkast_IRE

My neighbour decided today was the day to hose down his driveway . Spraying it with a hose for 40mins, driveway was not noticeably dirty to begin with , some people are just ignorant cxxts

suicide_circus

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

My neighbour decided today was the day to hose down his driveway . Spraying it with a hose for 40mins, driveway was not noticeably dirty to begin with , some people are just ignorant cxxts

would he do that if he were paying by usage?

wexie

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

My neighbour decided today was the day to hose down his driveway . Spraying it with a hose for 40mins, driveway was not noticeably dirty to begin with , some people are just ignorant cxxts

Was driving home this afternoon and noticed a sprinkler coming over the hedge in one house of a group (with a group water scheme)...

Be interested to know how that's going to go over.

kurtainsider

suicide_circus wrote: »

would he do that if he were paying by usage?

Perhaps he would.
Isn't it a real shame that our stupid politicians didn't set out to manage our water resources for the common good instead of attempting to bundle them up as a present for private ownership. The whole problem could have been avoided.

Sycamore Tree

RandomName2 wrote: »

A band aid over a gaping wound.

Meters don't make it rain more, or make the reservoirs bigger, or reduce the population of Dublin.

Even if there were meters in place it would only give a couple more weeks reprive before a hose-pipe ban got put in place. The drought isn't caused by a lack of metering. It's not even caused by the leaks in all the pipes. It due to the lack of rain.

Infrastructural investment, in the form of more numerous reservoirs, and replaced piping systems is important. Hopefully we might see it happen at some point. Nothing's stopping the government from investing in it.

We did invest a billion euro in Irish Water though. That's been really useful. :mad:

Correct. How quickly people forget how disastrous the Irish Water project was and continues to be. Don't let them fool you.

Lest we forget, it was set up as an expensive, bloated, wasteful superquango with shockingly poor management and some very dodgy appointments and contracts. And the stupid taxpayer was expected to turn a blind eye and pay for it. HSE Mark II. No vision, no plan - just an expensive black hole.

Let's recall what Alan Duke said about it;

A glorious, god-awful mess has been made of Irish Water. We've ended up with a system now that no rational person would have invented if they had sat down to put this kind of system together. The hope must be that it will work lamely until some sort of coherent system is put in place.

railer201

suicide_circus wrote: »

would he do that if he were paying by usage?

Very possibly yes as the ballpark charge in UK for example is €3 per 1000 litres or metric tonne which can be visualised as a cube of water 1 metre each side - quite a bit of water. Bargain really and not much of an incentive to conserve.

beveragelady

kurtainsider wrote: »

The point you're missing is that we already pay for it. The water metering scam was a shakedown to get us to pay or it twice.

Perhaps the government might offer an olive branch to the taxpayer next budget and reduce VAT on KY Jelly and Vaseline to 0% as a token of good will and an incentive for us all to lube up just another little bit.

I grew up in a house with a rainwater supply because we were nowhere near mains. I now live in a house with a well, again nowhere near a mains supply. It costs money to maintain a private water supply, just like it costs money to maintain a public one. The problem is I'm paying for my private water supply but I'm also paying for yours though taxation. You're not contributing anything towards mine, though, are you?

You need to pay for your share of water so my taxes can go to things like healthcare, education and public transport instead of filling your kettle and washing your car. You don't expect me to pay for your lunches or your central heating, why am I paying for your water?

Water is not free. The user should pay, just like you pay for other things you use.

Franz Von Peppercorn

kurtainsider wrote: »

Perhaps he would.
Isn't it a real shame that our stupid politicians didn't set out to manage our water resources for the common good instead of attempting to bundle them up as a present for private ownership. The whole problem could have been avoided.

Irish water is a semi state.

The whole “might be privatised” was just an excuse.

I grew up in town, on the town supply.

Both grannys houses and our farm all had their own wells/river supply for about the first 20 years of my life. All undrinkable.

A creamery can or 20 litre bucket was used for storing drinking water and this went on for years along with pump breakdowns, well cleaning etc etc.

Eventually we paid up and both got connected to a group scheme (metered and billed). Its was a luxury to go out there and knowing (a) the water would be running and (b) it was drinkable.

Folks who have never experience being off the mains supply just would never experience this.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Irish water is a semi state.

The whole “might be privatised” was just an excuse.

Exactlt. Now the bills have gone, the whole thing has blown over and will be forgotten about.

(at least until we have shortages...like today:pac:)

Sycamore Tree

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Irish water is a semi state.

The whole “might be privatised” was just an excuse.

The FG minister who helped set up Irish Water thought differently.

http://www.thejournal.ie/fergus-odowd-irish-water-agendas-privatisation-1825719-Dec2014/

Former minister who set up Irish Water says 'forces' at work to privatise company

Speaking about his role in the setting up of Irish Water in the Dáil last night, he said that he always wanted it to be included in legislation that Irish Water could never be privatised and would remain a public company.

He said he was very surprised then to see in the number two Bill there was no provision guaranteeing the utility remaining a public body.

kurtainsider

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Exactlt. Now the bills have gone, the whole thing has blown over and will be forgotten about.

(at least until we have shortages...like today:pac:)

I think that people are trying to rewrite history by giving the impression that Denis O Brien's Siteserv were set up to build huge reservoirs to store loads of cool refershing water against this drought.
Sorry - their intent was to install meters to make people pay twice for their water. They weren't going to add a single cubic inch of storage capacity.

alan partridge aha

beveragelady wrote: »

kurtainsider wrote: »

The point you're missing is that we already pay for it. The water metering scam was a shakedown to get us to pay or it twice.

Perhaps the government might offer an olive branch to the taxpayer next budget and reduce VAT on KY Jelly and Vaseline to 0% as a token of good will and an incentive for us all to lube up just another little bit.

I grew up in a house with a rainwater supply because we were nowhere near mains. I now live in a house with a well, again nowhere near a mains supply. It costs money to maintain a private water supply, just like it costs money to maintain a public one. The problem is I'm paying for my private water supply but I'm also paying for yours though taxation. You're not contributing anything towards mine, though, are you?

You need to pay for your share of water so my taxes can go to things like healthcare, education and public transport instead of filling your kettle and washing your car. You don't expect me to pay for your lunches or your central heating, why am I paying for your water?

Water is not free. The user should pay, just like you pay for other things you use.

You are correct sir but also most people with private wells also have septic tanks/bio units + percolation areas.
We built in 2010/11. Cost to drill well was €1000 . €1250 for pump, pipes and fittings. €4000 for biocycle. That's a total of €6250. I don't have price of pipe plus labour for pipe from pump to dwelling. Also labour/materials for waste pipes from house to biocycle. Also pipes,distribution box,p gravel and soil plus labour for percolation area. Probably another €1000 min.
Now also don't forgot pump for water runs on electricity as does motor in biocycle. This runs 24/7 at 70watts per hour.

If anything thing goes wrong ie pumps etc plus emptying sewerage every 5 years WE pay for that.

kurtainsider

beveragelady wrote: »

I grew up in a house with a rainwater supply because we were nowhere near mains. I now live in a house with a well, again nowhere near a mains supply. It costs money to maintain a private water supply, just like it costs money to maintain a public one. The problem is I'm paying for my private water supply but I'm also paying for yours though taxation. You're not contributing anything towards mine, though, are you?

You need to pay for your share of water so my taxes can go to things like healthcare, education and public transport instead of filling your kettle and washing your car. You don't expect me to pay for your lunches or your central heating, why am I paying for your water?

Water is not free. The user should pay, just like you pay for other things you use.

Hello there beveragelady - had you continued following the thread you'ed have seen that I pay all my taxes and then provide my own water and wastewater requirements on my own after tax money -that's beside the point.
My point is that the setting up of Irish Water was done in a manner so incompetent and disingenuous that it would have been morally wrong of the people of Ireland to support it. We deserve so much better for all our tax money.

GreeBo

kurtainsider wrote: »

I think that people are trying to rewrite history by giving the impression that Denis O Brien's Siteserv were set up to build huge reservoirs to store loads of cool refershing water against this drought.
Sorry - their intent was to install meters to make people pay twice for their water. They weren't going to add a single cubic inch of storage capacity.

This "paying twice" nonsense is really aggravating.

Its already been pointed out, but lets try one more time.

You cant use the "already paid for it" argument unless you are paying a thing thats specifically used for water.
General taxation pays for Education, Health, Roads, lighting, etc, etc and while some of it goes towards water, not enough goes to get or keep our water supply in the state we require it to be in.

Your argument is equivalent to expecting a free dessert because you already paid for your main course.

As for privatisation, do you really believe there is a crowd of people just dying to take over an entity that needs over €10 Billion spent on it before it will be economical to run and also its a service that they currently have no way of correctly identifying how much each user consumers?

Why would anyone in their right mind want to take over that business model?

We have a shortage of potable water because, again as pointed out earlier, it takes effort to treat and store drinkable water. Someone earlier made the poor argument that for other countries this weather is typical and they have no water issues....I'm assuming that person is aware this this is not normal weather for Ireland, anymore than they metres of snow we had 3 months ago were?

If you want a system that can guarantee potable water when the weather hits record highs and record lows for rainfall, then you can expect to pay massively over the odds for it....oh thats right, you dont want to pay at all because you think PAYE will magically cover it....its not loaves and fishes people.

beveragelady

kurtainsider wrote: »

I pay all my taxes and then provide my own water and wastewater requirements on my own after tax money -that's beside the point.

Why then do you continue to spout nonsense about being asked to pay for water twice? I want everybody to pay ONCE!

Ardent

beveragelady wrote: »

I grew up in a house with a rainwater supply because we were nowhere near mains. I now live in a house with a well, again nowhere near a mains supply. It costs money to maintain a private water supply, just like it costs money to maintain a public one. The problem is I'm paying for my private water supply but I'm also paying for yours though taxation. You're not contributing anything towards mine, though, are you?

You need to pay for your share of water so my taxes can go to things like healthcare, education and public transport instead of filling your kettle and washing your car. You don't expect me to pay for your lunches or your central heating, why am I paying for your water?

Water is not free. The user should pay, just like you pay for other things you use.

Well said.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Hector Bellend wrote: »

Yeah. It's about time we grew up and paid for our excess water.

Fixed that for you, Hector, no probs.

bluewizard

My strawberries are dead. I am filling in a claim against Irish Water.

nthclare

Irish water are a joke, they claim to own whats above and below the ground....

So whatever blows in from the atlantic is theirs, that's absolute bllsht...

Anybody who wants to harvest water or even start a water farm hasn't a leg to stand on....

They're lazy, they haven't come up with any transparent plans for anything.

I could design a water farm in my head that would work perfectly.

Another semi state body full of red tape etc

bluewizard

nthclare wrote: »

Irish water are a joke

..but, but sure the consultants, water meters, all worth millions...




****ers. Burn in hell.

beveragelady

nthclare wrote: »

Irish water are a joke, they claim to own whats above and below the ground....

So whatever blows in from the atlantic is theirs, that's absolute bllsht...

Anybody who wants to harvest water or even start a water farm hasn't a leg to stand on....

Are you saying they claim to own all the water?

kurtainsider

GreeBo wrote: »

This "paying twice" nonsense is really aggravating.

Its already been pointed out, but lets try one more time.

You cant use the "already paid for it" argument unless you are paying a thing thats specifically used for water.
General taxation pays for Education, Health, Roads, lighting, etc, etc and while some of it goes towards water, not enough goes to get or keep our water supply in the state we require it to be in.

Your argument is equivalent to expecting a free dessert because you already paid for your main course.

As for privatisation, do you really believe there is a crowd of people just dying to take over an entity that needs over €10 Billion spent on it before it will be economical to run and also its a service that they currently have no way of correctly identifying how much each user consumers?

Why would anyone in their right mind want to take over that business model?

We have a shortage of potable water because, again as pointed out earlier, it takes effort to treat and store drinkable water. Someone earlier made the poor argument that for other countries this weather is typical and they have no water issues....I'm assuming that person is aware this this is not normal weather for Ireland, anymore than they metres of snow we had 3 months ago were?

If you want a system that can guarantee potable water when the weather hits record highs and record lows for rainfall, then you can expect to pay massively over the odds for it....oh thats right, you dont want to pay at all because you think PAYE will magically cover it....its not loaves and fishes people.

Hello there GreeBo. Could I suggest that you do a bit of research into the politics of the whole setting up of Irish Water? While you're at it you might take a look at the rail privatization in the UK. Or even the banking system in Ireland over the last 15 years.

There's no risk to private owners because the government guarantees that they'll be made rich by taking it on and if things go south it'll be lobbed back onto the taxpayer to pick up any losses. It's the quintessential crony win win.

There is no question of a private operator putting up 10 billion. The taxpayer will put up the 10 billion and get things up to standard - then the private operator will take it over and milk it for their shareholders. If problems emerge they will bow out and the taxpayer (the people who indignantly tell anyone who'll listen that water must be paid for) will obligingly step up to relieve the private shareholders of their responsibilities.
It's a fantastically simple system actually - you just have to be amoral extremely cynical.

K.Flyer

Here's the thing, Irish Water couldn't organise the proverbial pi**up in a brewery. They have tried to re-invent the wheel too often when it came to water charging and f**ked it up so badly nobody has any faith in them ever getting it right and no government, for the moment, is willing to touch it because it is still a toxic subject.
Secondly, Irish Water have No Plans in place to meter Any apartment buildings, they never had.
This means, no matter what convoluted sh*te they come up with to try to charge for water, it will never be fair unless each and every property on a mains water supply is correctly metered.
For now, all we can hope for is to try and educate people on reducing excessive water consumption and fix leaks in a timely manner.
The message is getting through to some, I replaced 15 leaking ballcocks last week alone!
But others, unfortunately, will still have the attitude of FTW I'm filling the pool.

kurtainsider

beveragelady wrote: »

Why then do you continue to spout nonsense about being asked to pay for water twice? I want everybody to pay ONCE!

Beveragelady - water has been treated and distributed in the state since the year dot paid from general taxes. A few years ago they decided the install water meters and send people water bills. Taxes were't reduced to reflect the fact that water was no longer funded from taxation. That's an attempt the shake people down twice for water.
If you're happy to pay twice well good for you. I'm happy to pay just the once.

kurtainsider

Ardent wrote: »

Well said.

Well said, well said,well said,
You're the bull, you're the bull, you're the bull,

beveragelady

kurtainsider wrote: »

Beveragelady - water has been treated and distributed in the state since the year dot paid from general taxes. A few years ago they decided the install water meters and send people water bills. Taxes were't reduced to reflect the fact that water was no longer funded from taxation. That's an attempt the shake people down twice for water.
If you're happy to pay twice well good for you. I'm happy to pay just the once.

So water should be provided for free to a section of the population just because that's the way it has always been? Nonsense. Progress happens when people realise that "the way it has always been" isn't good enough.

You say all this as though there's a line on my paycheque telling me how much has been deducted specifically to pay for water. I pay tax, and it goes in a huge number of directions to keep the country running. I don't like paying tax but I don't have a choice so I try to be philosophical about it. It is, however, unjust that I pay for water for other people when it is possible to measure how much they use so they can pay for it themselves.

Your arguments are based on hypotheticals and hot air.