Peak Trans

HappyAsLarE

Neyite wrote: »

Maybe, but a woman going in and saying short back and sides or asking for a number 2 all over is asking for the very same as a man, including the same standard. Now if she walked in asking for a blue rinse, wash and set, the barber had every right to send her up the road to the hairdressers, because it's a particular style that they might not be practised in, just like when all the 80's men got permed mullets, it was the hairdressers that had the training to do them..

Now I want to try a blue rinse.

You make a good point. But is it up to an employee to clearly break a rule such as this? Can the man/woman not accept that they are causing a conundrum.

How common is it for barbers and hairdressers in shopping centres to have contracts to not serve men or women. That seems mad.

"the barber, mistakenly believing he was a woman"

Lolz, she does appear to be female so it was an easy mistake to make.

HappyAsLarE

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

How common is it for barbers and hairdressers in shopping centres to have contracts to not serve men or women. That seems mad.

"the barber, mistakenly believing he was a woman"

Lolz, she does appear to be female so it was an easy mistake to make.

Except it wasn’t really a mistake was it...

The Bishop Basher

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Except it wasn’t really a mistake was it...

Was about to say..

Whats the mistake

ceadaoin.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

How common is it for barbers and hairdressers in shopping centres to have contracts to not serve men or women. That seems mad.

"the barber, mistakenly believing he was a woman"

Lolz, she does appear to be female so it was an easy mistake to make.

People are usually pretty good at identifying what sex another person is, it's an inbuilt thing. This person was correctly identied as a female by the barber. It's hard to override those instincts and there may not have been any malice in it at all. "Incorrectly believing he was a woman" is bordering on gaslighting IMO.

I still think there's no reason not to cut their hair though if they are asking for a standard cut that the barber would be used to doing.

The Bishop Basher

ceadaoin. wrote: »

People are usually pretty good at identifying what sex another person is, it's an inbuilt thing. This person was correctly identied as a female by the barber. It's hard to override those instincts and there may not have been any malice in it at all. I still think there's no reason not to cut their hair though if they are asking for a standard cut that the barber would be used to doing.

They have a deal with a local hairdresser not to cut women's hair..

The barber was new..

What was he supposed to do..

Sweetemotion

I don't think I have ever read an article before, with the word "he" written so many times.

An_Toirpin

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

How common is it for barbers and hairdressers in shopping centres to have contracts to not serve men or women. That seems mad.

"the barber, mistakenly believing he was a woman"

Lolz, she does appear to be female so it was an easy mistake to make.

Except it wasn’t really a mistake was it...

The client was a biological woman. That wouldnt be gettting male hormones if they were a man.

HappyAsLarE

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Except it wasn’t really a mistake was it...

True, I feel sorry for the barbers, 5 grand for that. Jaysus.

An_Toirpin

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

How common is it for barbers and hairdressers in shopping centres to have contracts to not serve men or women. That seems mad.

"the barber, mistakenly believing he was a woman"

Lolz, she does appear to be female so it was an easy mistake to make.

I still think there's no reason not to cut their hair though if they are asking for a standard cut that the barber would be used to doing.

The business person should be able to provide the service they wish. If you were a masseuse should the government be able to force you to serve the opposite gender?

The Rape of Lucretia

Where was The Christian Institute in this case is what I want to know.

Annasopra

seanrambo87 wrote: »

I read that earlier, couldn't believe it, very dangerous precedent imo.
Seemed very innocent. They had a no female hair cutting agreement with a local salon and the incident occurred weeks before "he" started the hormone therapy.
Mad world altogether.

He (not "he") started taking male hormones weeks before the incident not afterwards. I think the result of this is a great step torward to prevent discrimination.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

He (not "he") started taking male hormones weeks before the incident not afterwards. I think the result of this is a great step torward to prevent discrimination.

How the hell would the barber know that?

He made a perfectly reasonable assumption that she is a woman, which she is. Like it or not.

And it cost the barber 5k. Its lunacy.

I can't say I'm surprised by the ruling. It's absolutely ridiculous but it seems that's the world we live in now.

Annasopra

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

How the hell would the barber know that?

When he explained it.

He informed the barber that he was transgender and a trans man.

Annasopra

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

How the hell would the barber know that?

He made a perfectly reasonable assumption that she is a woman, which she is. Like it or not.

And it cost the barber 5k. Its lunacy.

Any chance you could stop deliberately misgendering him?

ceadaoin.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The business person should be able to provide the service they wish. If you were a masseuse should the government be able to force you to serve the opposite gender?

Don't get me wrong, I don't see a reason why they can't cut women's hair but I get that they have a right to enforce whatever policies they want. If I was in the market for a short back and sides and was turned away it wouldn't bother me. I certainly wouldn't be taking them to court, there's plenty of other places to go.

Anything that involves intimate care or touching such as waxing or massage then absolutely I can see why some service providers may be more comfortable with members of their own sex, regardless of how the customer may identify and I don't think they should be forced to provide a service that makes them feel uncomfortable

An_Toirpin

ot Joeytheparrot wrote: »

seanrambo87 wrote: »

I read that earlier, couldn't believe it, very dangerous precedent imo.
Seemed very innocent. They had a no female hair cutting agreement with a local salon and the  incident occurred weeks before "he" started the hormone therapy.
Mad world altogether.

He (not "he") started taking male hormones weeks before the incident not afterwards. I think the result of this is a great step torward to prevent discrimination.

It is extremely dangerous. Forcing businesses to provide services against their will is slavery. Simply as. Trans are not analogous to blacks under Jim Crow laws in the US. Realistically trans folk have no barriers to getting hair cuts as often as they desire.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Any chance you could stop deliberately misgendering him?

Woman: "Adult human female"

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/woman

Annasopra

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is extremely dangerous. Forcing businesses to provide services against their will is slavery. Simply as. Trans areanalgous to blacks under Jim Crow laws. Trans folk have no barriers to getting hair cuts as often as they need.

He clearly did as he was discriminated against. This is merely ensuring that businesses do not discriminate. This "slavery" nonsense is crap. It is the law that they cannot discriminate. This is a perfectly good thing.

Annasopra

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Woman: "Adult human female"

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/woman

You are being transphobic in deliberately misgendering him.

Doctor Jimbob

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

When he explained it.

He informed the barber that he was transgender and a trans man.

While I sympathise with him, on the one hand I feel like that line of argument is a bit like saying someone should be served alcohol just because they said they're 18. Not as serious, obviously, but I'm not sure we should be believing everything someone says just because they say it. On the flip side, having to provide proof would be upsetting and embarrassing, so I don't really know where I stand on the issue.


Before anyone jumps at me for saying he, I don't know enough about trans issues to really comment either way, but calling someone what they wish to be called doesn't seem particularly difficult, and doesn't really harm anyone.

Annasopra

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

While I sympathise with him, on the one hand I feel like that line of argument is a bit like saying someone should be served alcohol just because they said they're 18. Not as serious, obviously, but I'm not sure we should be believing everything someone says just because they say it. On the flip side, having to provide proof would be upsetting and embarrassing, so I don't really know where I stand on the issue.


Before anyone jumps at me for saying he, I don't know enough about trans issues to really comment either way, but calling someone what they wish to be called doesn't seem particularly difficult, and doesn't really harm anyone.

Why on earth would someone lie that they were a trans man just to get a haircut. Bizarre thinking.

Agree with you on the latter. Common courtesy costs nothing.

Calhoun

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You are being transphobic in deliberately misgendering him.

Next comes the laws like in Canada this will soon become illegal, and we will have some level of prosecution or maybe huge financial penalties.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You are being transphobic in deliberately misgendering him.

is it transphobic to not immediately believe a stranger who looks like a woman, talks like a woman and has the genetic makeup as a woman when they say that they are in fact male?

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

is it transphobic to not immediately believe a stranger who looks like a woman, talks like a woman and has the genetic makeup as a woman when they say that they are in fact male?

Its transphobic to deliberately misgender them as is being done here.

I wouldnt necessarily believe it is transphobic to not believe someone that tells you they are trans but is very very bizarre. Why on earth wouldnt you believe them? If someones tells me they are a trans male why wouldnt I believe them. What is this? "Oh she only lied to get a haircut"? Ffs that is utter stupidity.

It is discrimination to turn that person away based on their gender identity yes.

Doctor Jimbob

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why on earth would someone lie that they were a trans man just to get a haircut. Bizarre thinking.

Agree with you on the latter. Common courtesy costs nothing.

To be honest I don't really know why haircuts are a gendered thing to begin with, so yeah that's a fair point.

TheValeyard

What if the person is gender neutral? whats the rules on where you get your hair cut?

An_Toirpin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Woman: "Adult human female"

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/woman

You are being transphobic in deliberately misgendering him.

Their sex is female. Their gender is nothing to do with anything. When we say he or she we refer to their sex.

pleas advice

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It is discrimination to turn that person away based on their gender identity yes.

He wasn't turned away because of his gender identity,

An_Toirpin

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why on earth would someone lie that they were a trans man just to get a haircut. Bizarre thinking.

Agree with you on the latter. Common courtesy costs nothing.

To be honest I don't really know why haircuts are a gendered thing to begin with, so yeah that's a fair point.

because men and women are looking for a different service.

Neyite

An_Toirpin wrote: »

because men and women are looking for a different service.

Can you explain the technical difference between a male short back and sides hair cut and a female short back and sides hair cut?

HappyAsLarE

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You are being transphobic in deliberately misgendering him.

Mindless tolerance of everything.

An_Toirpin

Neyite wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

because men and women are looking for a different service.

Can you explain the technical difference between a male short back and sides hair cut and a female short back and sides hair cut?

It is a different service, driven by the consumer.

HappyAsLarE

Neyite wrote: »

Can you explain the technical difference between a male short back and sides hair cut and a female short back and sides hair cut?

There is a difference in men’s and women’s haircuts. €100 vs €10.

Wibbs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You are being transphobic in deliberately misgendering him.

Ah will you go away with the transphobic stuff as an argument. This is getting bloody ridiculous at this stage. Most folks upon meeting this person would think "woman" and biology would back that up. How they might feel and identify as would be another matter and one where I would agree with your take below.

Common courtesy costs nothing.

In this I agree with you 100%. It's always my fallback position, if in doubt go to basic manners. If I were a barber and someone comes in for a haircut and I think that they're a woman - and in this case I'll be honest my go to first call would be "gay woman" - but they then told me they were trans, again I'll be honest and would think OK... However, I would fall back on basic manners and treat them the way they wanted to be treated and just cut their hair, regardless of whether I thought of them as male or female. No need to be a prick about it, though the barber in question seemed more confused and increasingly so on the day.

2 Scoops

I found this clip of Ben Shapiro being threatened of being sent home in an ambulance and grabbed around the neck by a transgender woman not lady like. "I'll see you outside!"

Will I Am Not

There was a doctor on Ray D’Arcy today, echoing a lot of concerns about puberty blockers and talking about post-op regret in patients that he is dealing with.

HappyAsLarE

You need the be lying down at the bottom of a hierarchy for someone to care.

I'm heading to Curves gym tomorrow and see if they let me sign up

Doctor Jimbob

An_Toirpin wrote: »

because men and women are looking for a different service.

In general, sure. But there are exceptions. Plenty of men have long hair that might need more care, and plenty of women have shorter hair that might just need a quick trim, and that's before even mentioning trans people. It makes sense as a general rule, but it seems a bit daft to actually refuse a customer over it.

HappyAsLarE

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

In general, sure. But there are exceptions. Plenty of men have long hair that might need more care, and plenty of women have shorter hair that might just need a quick trim, and that's before even mentioning trans people. It makes sense as a general rule, but it seems a bit daft to actually refuse a customer over it.

No, if that was true then there would be a blurred line between hairdressers and barbers. The market sets the rules. Plenty of = fcuk all.

HappyAsLarE

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm heading to Curves gym tomorrow and see if they let me sign up

Are they for women only? My oh my opportunity for a few pound in compo. See you there.

Doctor Jimbob

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

No, if that was true then there would be a blurred line between hairdressers and barbers. The market sets the rules. Plenty of = fcuk all.

Of course, there's no blurring of the lines at all. No crossover between men and women's hairstyles at all. That's why unisex hairdressers don't exist.

Annasopra

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah will you go away with the transphobic stuff as an argument. This is getting bloody ridiculous at this stage. Most folks upon meeting this person would think "woman" and biology would back that up. How they might feel and identify as would be another matter and one where I would agree with your take below.

In this I agree with you 100%. It's always my fallback position, if in doubt go to basic manners. If I were a barber and someone comes in for a haircut and I think that they're a woman - and in this case I'll be honest my go to first call would be "gay woman" - but they then told me they were trans, again I'll be honest and would think OK... However, I would fall back on basic manners and treat them the way they wanted to be treated and just cut their hair, regardless of whether I thought of them as male or female. No need to be a prick about it, though the barber in question seemed more confused and increasingly so on the day.

I'm glad you acknowledge deliberate misgendering is essentially being a prick.

HappyAsLarE

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Of course, there's no blurring of the lines at all. No crossover between men and women's hairstyles at all. That's why unisex hairdressers don't exist.

I actually don’t know of any unisex hairdressers nor have I ever heard one man saying he went to a hair dresser.

Doctor Jimbob

Doctor Jimbob wrote:

Of course, there's no blurring of the lines at all. No crossover between men and women's hairstyles at all. That's why unisex hairdressers don't exist.

That's why the person should have gone to a unisex salon perhaps.

HappyAsLarE

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm glad you acknowledge deliberate misgendering is essentially being a prick.

There is a difference between being polite and cordial with someone face to face and then saying what you really think on an anonymous forum.

Annasopra

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

There is a difference between being polite and cordial with someone face to face and then saying what you really think on an anonymous forum.

Like you know as wibbs put it you can be a prick about it online basically

HappyAsLarE

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Like you know as wibbs put it you can be a prick about it online basically

In your opinion it is prickish. You take the moral high ground. Pour out compassion so everyone else can’t make a point because we are all pricks.