Peak Trans

7aubzxk43m2sni

Malayalam wrote: »

I agree. This hair dressing story is more smoke than fire.


It might get trickier in other gender centric services like massage, sex work, waxing, whatever. Like recently I have seen a heated debate regarding transgirls periods....it's gonna be tough on gynaecologists when they start refusing to rummage past girldick to inspect the period producing organs...

Even airport security - if I identify as a women, can I get searched by a woman instead of a man?

PlaneSpeeking

Malayalam wrote: »

I agree. This hair dressing story is more smoke than fire.


It might get trickier in other gender centric services like massage, sex work, waxing, whatever. Like recently I have seen a heated debate regarding transgirls periods....it's gonna be tough on gynaecologists when they start refusing to rummage past girldick to inspect the period producing organs...

Don't we have similar nonsense to face her with the abortion legislation where it can't refer to pregnant "women". If you have womb and there's a foetus in it - you're a woman!

I always thought Life of Brian was a comedy but we are now genuinely approacing this:

Stan: "I want to have babies"
Reg: "You can't have babies"
Stan: "Don't you oppress me"
Reg: "You can't have babies - you haven't got a womb, where's the foetus going to gestate, in a box ?"

PlaneSpeeking

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Even airport security - if I identify as a women, can I get searched by a woman instead of a man?

Oh and vice versa, there's a fine looking blond lad at T2 in Dublin!

Asking for a friend...

7aubzxk43m2sni

MadYaker wrote: »

Nope. If this agreement did indeed exist it wasn’t legal. Regardless of what your views on the transgender issue are ( I don’t really understand it) what happened here was a barber refused to serve a customer because of their gender and that is discrimination plain and simple.



The barber refused to serve this person because they were a women. How is that not discrimination in your book? He was perfectly capable of providing the requested haircut.

Are you saying every hair salon should cut men and women's hair, and every barber should cut men and women's hair too?

padd b1975

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Don't we have similar nonsense to face her with the abortion legislation where it can't refer to pregnant "women". If you have womb and there's a foetus in it - you're a woman!

I always thought Life of Brian was a comedy but we are now genuinely approacing this:

Stan: "I want to have babies"
Reg: "You can't have babies"
Stan: "Don't you oppress me"
Reg: "You can't have babies - you haven't got a womb, where's the foetus going to gestate, in a box ?"

My old pal Coppinger is constantly droning on about pregnant "people".

She's always bang on trend.

Not so much with the fashion though....

Rory28

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Are you saying every hair salon should cut men and women's hair, and every barber should cut men and women's hair too?

they should offer their services to all. the barbers is the place to go to if you want a short back and sides. 12 - 15 euro job done. hairdressers are tad bit more expensive.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Rory28 wrote: »

they should offer their services to all. the barbers is the place to go to if you want a short back and sides. 12 - 15 euro job done. hairdressers are tad bit more expensive.

Ok. What about the example given earlier of curves - the women's only gym? Is that ok is should they also offer their services to all?

Annasopra

Neyite wrote: »

Well we don't have titles in this country.

In the UK where they do have titles, the proposed legislation will allow anyone to self identify as they like, when they like, be that part time or full time. However they drew the line at primogeniture. So the powers that be have decided that you can, to all intents and purposes identify as the opposite sex to the extent that you don't need to have had any surgeries or hormone treatment, and legally you must be treated accordingly, and that it's even illegal to ask or imply that they are anything other than the gender they state.

Except when it comes to inheriting your Da's title and all that goes with it.

Thats the law here for the last 3 years. The sky hasnt fallen in.

PlaneSpeeking

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Ok. What about the example given earlier of curves - the women's only gym? Is that ok is should they also offer their services to all?

Female only yeah, but that's "good discrimination" you see.

Like - women going topless with a fake beard into a male only hour at a pool - that kind of thing.

HappyAsLarE

Wait a minute. Please tell me that Facebook don’t actually have all those 50 genders available for selection? Please tell me this is a pee take.

Stop the world, I want to jump off.

Annasopra

Malayalam wrote: »

Some might laugh at the example regarding primogeniture laws but it is quite good for demonstrating the contradictions inherent in gender ideology and how it is becoming enshrined in legislation, education and social policy. If law protects gender as a social construct in one area it MUST protect it as a social construct in all areas or else the legislature and legislation as a device is wholly undermined. Something we do at our peril.


People might think oh what harm in the gender unicorn at school but when extrapolated to its logical conclusion the result is transgender identified police persons with birth genitalia intact permitted under UK police guidelines to intimately search people of the gender with which they identify. For example.

(Look it up).

There are going to be so many areas of pushback where people just say No, and then public policy makers are going to either have to reach for extravagant enforcement measures or wake up one day and realize wtf were we thinking.

Only a minute you said "oh I cant comment"

Malayalam

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Only a minute you said "oh I cant comment"

Did I? Can't remember....

Oh well, now I identify as a 'commenter'

LLMMLL

Rennaws wrote: »

Because as has already been explained, this shop has a policy on only cutting male hair.

This customer didn’t just look female, they were female.

The Barber was new and trying to do the right thing and correctly deduced that this customer was a woman.

it ended up costing them €5k.

How is that fair on the barber ?

Because the customer was Male. A trans Male but still Male.

Rory28

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Ok. What about the example given earlier of curves - the women's only gym? Is that ok is should they also offer their services to all?

Is it really women only or is it like that car insurance crowd that target their marketing towards women? If it truly is a women's only gym then no I don't think they should be allowed discriminate against men in similar positions to the women that want judgement free place to get in shape.

Normal gyms are fine too by the way. I was always nervous to start going to the gym until i actually started going. the people I was afraid would laugh at me where instead really helpful. Showing me correct ways to use machines and how to get a good routine going. Great place altogether

P_1

Wibbs wrote: »

Because P it's based on simple logic and it fits any individual you care to mention and any gender and sexuality label out there, including every one of the labels Facebook reckons are valid.

I found said list and here it is in all its glory...

Agender
Androgyne
Androgynous
Bigender
Cis
Cisgender
Cis Female
Cis Male
Cis Man
Cis Woman
Cisgender Female
Cisgender Male
Cisgender Man
Cisgender Woman
Female to Male
FTM
Gender Fluid
Gender Nonconforming
Gender Questioning
Gender Variant
Genderqueer
Intersex
Male to Female
MTF
Neither
Neutrois
Non-binary
Other
Pangender
Trans
Trans*
Trans Female
Trans* Female
Trans Male
Trans* Male
Trans Man
Trans* Man
Trans Person
Trans* Person
Trans Woman
Trans* Woman
Transfeminine
Transgender
Transgender Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Man
Transgender Person
Transgender Woman
Transmasculine
Transsexual
Transsexual Female
Transsexual Male
Transsexual Man
Transsexual Person
Transsexual Woman
Two-Spirit

And believe me this isn't the most daft list by any stretch, there are dafter. For a start any label above that includes "trans" is the same bloody thing and fits into my intersex category. The ones containing "CIS" are also the same. Labels like "Agender" Neither, Neutrois, Two-Spirit, Bi-gender, Non-binary, Other, Pangender are nebulous at best, self indulgent identity politics at worst and again the individual will fit into either male, female or intersex. Androgyne and Androgynous again the same thing and again self identitifying and cultural with it(what one culture defines as androgynous differs from what another might).

That's fair enough and you are right some of the labels there are frankly ridiculous.

I actually think we might have a similar enough viewpoint on this but may be using different terms.

Annasopra

Rennaws wrote: »

Because as has already been explained, this shop has a policy on only cutting male hair.

This customer didn’t just look female, they were female.

The Barber was new and trying to do the right thing and correctly deduced that this customer was a woman.

it ended up costing them €5k.

How is that fair on the barber ?

Its not but the barber discrimated against the customer. Thats the consequences.

King of Kings

Rory28 wrote: »

The barber should have just cut the hair. My hoop the barber didn't know trans issues would pass whatever contract he had with the hairdressers. Like most in this thread I would be against transitioning kids or early teenagers but this was an adult. I dont see why they couldnt just cut his hair. You dont have to respect them but you should at least have manners when talking to someone.

Live and let live stops when we stop people using services in their own community.

the issue I have with identity politics is it forces itself on others into areas it never should go.

A person now must be cognisant of trans issues and whatever "offence" is currently in vogue to cut hair. To cut fcuking hair . For fear of being fined.
let that sink in...

The guy made a genuine call based on the lease ...he wasnt rude or offensive...and him or his business is down 5k..

I dispair when I read stuff like this.

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because the customer was Male. A trans Male but still Male.

I could think up many objective criteria that would prove it was a woman.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Rory28 wrote: »

Is it really women only or is it like that car insurance crowd that target their marketing towards women? If it truly is a women's only gym then no I don't think they should be allowed discriminate against men in similar positions to the women that want judgement free place to get in shape.

Normal gyms are fine too by the way. I was always nervous to start going to the gym until i actually started going. the people I was afraid would laugh at me where instead really helpful. Showing me correct ways to use machines and how to get a good routine going. Great place altogether

I'm not sure how the second paragraph is relevant, but cheers.

I'm fairly confident that curves really only serves women, and I appreciate that you're consistent in your belief that a business should not be able to only serve one gender.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not but the barber discrimated against the customer. Thats the consequences.

You agree it's unfair?

Omackeral

Wibbs wrote: »

Agender
Androgyne
Androgynous
Bigender
Cis
Cisgender
Cis Female
Cis Male
Cis Man
Cis Woman
Cisgender Female
Cisgender Male
Cisgender Man
Cisgender Woman
Female to Male
FTM
Gender Fluid
Gender Nonconforming
Gender Questioning
Gender Variant
Genderqueer
Intersex
Male to Female
MTF
Neither
Neutrois
Non-binary
Other
Pangender
Trans
Trans*
Trans Female
Trans* Female
Trans Male
Trans* Male
Trans Man
Trans* Man
Trans Person
Trans* Person
Trans Woman
Trans* Woman
Transfeminine
Transgender
Transgender Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Man
Transgender Person
Transgender Woman
Transmasculine
Transsexual
Transsexual Female
Transsexual Male
Transsexual Man
Transsexual Person
Transsexual Woman
Two-Spirit

More accurate list.

PlaneSpeeking

Omackeral wrote: »

More accurate list.

Perhaps it's me but you know the progressive crowd who mock religious people (the mad lot, creationists for example) - their argument is always rooted in science. Richard Dawkins - for one.

Yet when it comes to gender - suddenly it's not using science to block beliefs, it's using beliefs and threats of cases like the barber to block science!

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I could think up many objective criteria that would prove it was a woman.

Not sure you know the meaning of objective.

P_1

Omackeral wrote: »

More accurate list.

To be fair there is male and female. There is also somewhere in between for some people. Without getting into the minefield that is gender identity politics I think most people get that.

Also remember that in a lot of cases the emptiest vessel makes the most noise.

bodice ripper

I don't see how it's OK to turn down work on the basis of gender. Sure, if a woman comes into the barber looking for layers and a full head of highlights, you don't do that so tough ****. But if it's a short back and sides, what's the ****ing problem?
I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not sure you know the meaning of objective.

Not influenced by personal beliefs.

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not sure you know the meaning of objective.

Pot-kettle....

How about:

Female features
Female voice
Female figure

Where do you want to stop ? They are "objective" (and yes I know the meaning of that and lots of other words!) criteria to assume someone is female.

Familiar with your work, so have at the response L.

BarryD2

There's money to be made out of it and where there's money to be made, people will exploit the opportunity.

I agree that it is insidious. Many teenagers go through a questioning period when things are uncertain for them. And this push to question gender identity exploits those normal doubts which would vanish or resolve themselves given a bit of time.

ELM327

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I could think up many objective criteria that would prove it was a woman.

Like "his" vagina?

PlaneSpeeking

bodice ripper wrote: »

I don't see how it's OK to turn down work on the basis of gender. Sure, if a woman comes into the barber looking for layers and a full head of highlights, you don't do that so tough ****. But if it's a short back and sides, what's the ****ing problem?
I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

And you've a fair point there - i have short hair and I'm buggered if I'm paying 50 quid a go!

However, the local barbers in my town will cut women's hair if they want a short back and sides. But this barber had a condition on his lease forbidding him cutting women's hair (something to do with competition with the hairdresser sharing the unit ?)

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

Like "his" vagina?

And the internal workings....!

ELM327

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And the internal workings....!

Can you direct me to the male sanitary towel department please?

Rory28

King of Kings wrote: »

the issue I have with identity politics is it forces itself on others into areas it never should go.

A person now must be cognisant of trans issues and whatever "offence" is currently in vogue to cut hair. To cut fcuking hair . For fear of being fined.
let that sink in...

The guy made a genuine call based on the lease ...he wasnt rude or offensive...and him or his business is down 5k..

I dispair when I read stuff like this.

I dont think thats the case here at all. We dont have to be up to date on trans issues just treat people courteously. When the customer said they were a trans man that should have been it. The fine is because it was ruled he discriminated. He will now take a case against whoever made the lease that said he couldn't serve women. a ridiculous lease in fairness.

Now I just want to point out I'm not saying I agree with all that 50+ gender nonsense or that we should call ourselves cis men and cis women. You dont call a swan a white swan and all that. Just that if someone asks me to call them a man/woman i'm happy to do so but I will call you as I see you until told otherwise.

bodice ripper

bodice ripper wrote: »

I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

Well then they should have gone to an alternative barber who didn't have an agreement with a hairdressers that he wouldn't cut female client's hair.

I don't want to pay for extra in car insurance or suffer harsher prison sentences or be a lesser parent in the eyes of the court because I have the temerity to have a penis

PlaneSpeeking

BarryD2 wrote: »

There's money to be made out of it and where there's money to be made, people will exploit the opportunity.

I agree that it is insidious. Many teenagers go through a questioning period when things are uncertain for them. And this push to question gender identity exploits those normal doubts which would vanish or resolve themselves given a bit of time.

I read a terrifying article not long ago written by a gay man.

He knew he was gay from 12-13 (to be honest, fitting in with most of the people I know who are gay - the may not come out till later but that's when they know).

His mother tries to convince him he was trans. Bought him female clothes, called him by a feminine version of the name (if memory serves he was called Alex and she called him Alice). They even took him to something called The Mermaid Group ? Not familiar there I'm afraid.

That poor lad just wanted to be who he was but well meaning but wholly misguided parents messed up big time.

They could have had a perfectly, healthy, normal, gay son. But that poor lad - still not an adult - will be recovering from this for some time.

Like I've said before, I'm not trans, or gay - just a bog standard straight female tomboy. My parents bought me Scalextrics, and took me to play and watch footy.

I'm not a parent but I imagine that if you give your kids what THEY need, not what you think they SHOULD need, you'll be left with happy adults who love the bones of you.

MadYaker

Braelyn Stocky Stew wrote: »

Are you saying every hair salon should cut men and women's hair, and every barber should cut men and women's hair too?

No I’m not saying that. If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

Seems pretty straightforward to me and I’d imagine that’s the way the judge looked at it.

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

Can you direct me to the male sanitary towel department please?

Ooh don't go there!!!!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/13/pc-criticised-warning-feminine-care-supermarket-signs-sexist/

SnazzyPig

bodice ripper wrote: »

I don't see how it's OK to turn down work on the basis of gender. Sure, if a woman comes into the barber looking for layers and a full head of highlights, you don't do that so tough ****. But if it's a short back and sides, what's the ****ing problem?
I had the side of my head shaved for years, and I encountered this a few times. I don't want to pay double or triple in the hairdressers because I have the temerity to have a vagina.

The article says it was a condition of the lease not to compete with the nearby ladies salon by cutting women's hair.

Rory28

Rory28 wrote: »

I dont think thats the case here at all. We dont have to be up to date on trans issues just treat people courteously. When the customer said they were a trans man that should have been it. The fine is because it was ruled he discriminated. He will now take a case against whoever made the lease that said he couldn't serve women. a ridiculous lease in fairness.

I disagree with that. Why should someone have to take a strangers word on anything? According to his lease (which admittedly was stupid) he couldn't cut women's hair. Just because they said they were a man despite evidence to the contrary, you think they should just be believed? If a young person went into a bar and just told the barman they were 18 despite looking and sounding younger, should the barman just believe them?

If you have the issue with the fact it was discrimination, would you fully support me if I went to curves gym and sued them because they wouldn't allow me to join?

Rory28

SnazzyPig wrote: »

The article says it was a condition of the lease not to compete with the nearby ladies salon by cutting women's hair.

Is such a lease even legal tho?

Rory28

disagree with that. Why should someone have to take a strangers word on anything? According to his lease (which admittedly was stupid) he couldn't cut women's hair. Just because they said they were a man despite evidence to the contrary, you think they should just be believed? If a young person went into a bar and just told the barman they were 18 despite looking and sounding younger, should the barman just believe them?

If you have the issue with the fact it was discrimination, would you fully support me if I went to curves gym and sued them because they wouldn't allow me to join?

I'm still questioning the legalities of the lease and I already answered the curves question.

MadYaker

SnazzyPig wrote: »

The article says it was a condition of the lease not to compete with the nearby ladies salon by cutting women's hair.

I find this very hard to believe as such an agreement would almost certainly be illegal. It sounds like a lame excuse to me.

PlaneSpeeking

Rory28 wrote: »

Is such a lease even legal tho?

Possibly/probably not but I know if my livelihood depended on it, I'd side with the landlord and err on the side of caution.

elbyrneo

If someone is asked to leave either a male or female dressing room in a public swimming pool, on the basis of mistaken gender, are they entitled to sue for discrimination similar to the barber story?

At least in the case of the barber, there are (perhaps dubiously) mitigating circumstances- the barber understood there was a lease agreement based on men only services to prevent competition with a nearby ladies salon, and his skillset was better suited to mens hair.

What would happen say for a biological born man transitioning to a woman and scaring the bejaysus out of ladies in a dressing room (partic if in the early stages of transition) and then screaming "but I'm a woman" when being escorted out by security. Easy money......

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

I find this very hard to believe as such an agreement would almost certainly be illegal. It sounds like a lame excuse to me.

It is a mad world we live in where you think an agreement between two competing hairdressers is a lame excuse and unbelievable but can wholesale believe that someone born with a vagina can be a man.

Are we at the stage now where we deny there are natural differences between sexes and establishments should be able to cater specifically for one or the other otherwise.....DISCRIMINATION?

Jesus Christ.

PlaneSpeeking

elbyrneo wrote: »

If someone is asked to leave either a male or female dressing room in a public swimming pool, on the basis of mistaken gender, are they entitled to sue for discrimination similar to the barber story?

At least in the case of the barber, there are (perhaps dubiously) mitigating circumstances- the barber understood there was a lease agreement based on men only services to prevent competition with a nearby ladies salon, and his skillset was better suited to mens hair.

What would happen say for a biological born man transitioning to a woman and scaring the bejaysus out of ladies in a dressing room (partic if in the early stages of transition) and then screaming "but I'm a woman" when being escorted out by security. Easy money......

Four female prisoners were sexually assaulted recently when a fully functioning male rapist "identified" as a woman and was moved there:

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/07/18/whats-current-trans-identified-male-inmate-sexually-assaults-four-inmates-uk-womens-prison/

Rory28

Rory28 wrote: »

I'm still questioning the legalities of the lease and I already answered the curves question.

Apologies, I missed it.

So you would agree that I should be able to sue Curves? That's mental.

MadYaker

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is a mad world we live in where you think an agreement between two competing hairdressers is a lame excuse and unbelievable but can wholesale believe that someone born with a vagina can be a man.

Are we at the stage now where we deny there are natural differences between sexes and establishments should be able to cater specifically for one or the other otherwise.....DISCRIMINATION?

Jesus Christ.

Oh my god it’s so tiresome reading posts like this. Where exactly did I say that I believe someone born with a vagina can be a man? Read my other post here:

If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

bodice ripper

Deleted User wrote:

Well then they should have gone to an alternative barber who didn't have an agreement with a hairdressers that he wouldn't cut female client's hair.

I don't want to pay for extra in car insurance or suffer harsher prison sentences or be a lesser parent in the eyes of the court because I have the temerity to have a penis

Not sure why you want me to respect price fixing. Nor do I know why you are getting in my face, I don't think you should have to put up with those things either.

Neyite

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

His mother tries to convince him he was trans. Bought him female clothes, called him by a feminine version of the name (if memory serves he was called Alex and she called him Alice). They even took him to something called The Mermaid Group ? Not familiar there I'm afraid.

That poor lad just wanted to be who he was but well meaning but wholly misguided parents messed up big time.

They could have had a perfectly, healthy, normal, gay son. But that poor lad - still not an adult - will be recovering from this for some time.

Sadly there are still many parts of society where it's more palatable for some parents to have a trans (straight) child than a gay one. Or where the parents jump on gendered inclinations and overly push them on the child as a form of attention seeking for the parents.

Children are incredibly malleable. Even the most abusive parent has a child that loves them and tries to follow the 'rules' to please that parent - whatever those rules may be. And if a child feels they might be different but has a homophobic parent, it might be less terrifying to go to mum and dad with the feeling that they are simply the wrong gender rather than the 'wrong' sexuality.