Peak Trans

bodice ripper

bodice ripper wrote: »

Not sure why you want me to respect price fixing. Nor do I know why you are getting in my face, I don't think you should have to put up with those things either.

I'm not getting in your face. I am not asking you to put up with their price fixing either. I just think that if you dislike their methods or price fixing, go somewhere else.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Oh my god it’s so tiresome reading posts like this. Where exactly did I say that I believe someone born with a vagina can be a man? Read my other post here:

If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

My apologies. I did put words in your mouth and that was unfair. I take that back.

And while I agree with your view and think it makes the most sense, I still think that people should be allowed cater for a specific gender (eg curves gym, barbers etc). I don't think the courts should be brought into it.

MadYaker

The transgender thing isn’t really relevant to what happened here at all but a lot of people don’t seem to able to view it that way.

PlaneSpeeking

MadYaker wrote: »

The transgender thing isn’t really relevant to what happened here at all but a lot of people don’t seem to able to view it that way.

Please explain how it's not a transgender issue ?

MadYaker

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Please explain how it's not a transgender issue ?

If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

The transgender thing isn’t really relevant to what happened here at all but a lot of people don’t seem to able to view it that way.

That's a good point but it is easy to see how people would get confused considering the tone of the article goes at length to push the fact that the person was a he.

PlaneSpeeking

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a good point but it is easy to see how people would get confused considering the tone of the article goes at length to push the fact that the person was a he.

Yes but as a woman if I went to a barbers to ask for a short back and sides and they refused - I guarantee I wouldn't be looking at 5 grand now.

Malayalam

MadYaker wrote: »

If you want a women’s haircut go to a hair salon. If you want a men’s haircut go to a barbers. Your gender should be irrelevant. This person wanted a mans haircut and went to a barbers, they were refused service because they were female. How can people not see that as straight up discrimination? Regardless of what agreement may or may not have existed with another business, you can’t refuse to serve someone because of their gender.

I can see your point particularly in this instance that does not involve overly intimate contact. But say I am a masseuse who has decided to only work with female clients, perhaps due to religion or prior sexual assault or simply because touching unknown men's bodies is outside my comfort zone. Can I refuse service to a person with male characteristics who identifies as a woman?

PlaneSpeeking

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Yes but as a woman if I went to a barbers to ask for a short back and sides and they refused - I guarantee I wouldn't be looking at 5 grand now.

If you do, let me know and I'll go with you as a witness and claim for 2.5k as I was traumatised by seeing such a violent and despicable act of mental cruelty

MadYaker

Malayalam wrote: »

I can see your point particularly in this instance that does not involve overly intimate contact. But say I am a masseuse who has decided to only work with female clients, perhaps due to religion or prior sexual assault or simply because touching unknown men's bodies is outside my comfort zone. Can I refuse service to a person with male characteristics who identifies as a woman?

I think you’d need to consult a solicitor on that one. If touching certain people’s bodies is outside your comfort zone why would you work as a masseuse?

I know that’s just a hypothetical example but I think in almost all of these situations if people could apply common sense a lot of problems would be avoided.

Malayalam

MadYaker wrote: »

I think you’d need to consult a solicitor on that one. If touching certain people’s bodies is outside your comfort zone why would you work as a masseuse?

I think in almost all of these situations if people could apply common sense a lot of problems would be avoided.

This would be so for lots of masseuses - for a variety of personal reasons they work only with their own sex. As a side line I teach movement classes, I have often taught unknown women privately but choose not to do so with men unless they are friends. This is due to prior assaults. It's not unreasonable to refuse due to gender

PlaneSpeeking

Malayalam wrote: »

This would be so for lots of masseuses - for a variety of personal reasons they work only with their own sex. As a side line I teach movement classes, I have often taught unknown women privately but choose not to do so with men unless they are friends. This is due to prior assaults. It's not unreasonable to refuse due to gender

Listen I read an article not long back where if lesbian women were to refuse to sleep with self identifying trans men (i.e. still packing) they were transphobic!

Aren't they just gay women who don't want to partake of the old meat and two veg ???

MadYaker

Malayalam wrote: »

This would be so for lots of masseuses - for a variety of personal reasons they work only with their own sex. As a side line I teach movement classes, I have often taught unknown women privately but choose not to do so with men unless they are friends. This is due to prior assaults. It's not unreasonable to refuse due to gender

Fair enough, I’m a man and have never been to a masseuse or anything like that so I don’t know how it usually works but I think in this day and age if business have practices like that they may want to reexamine the way they do things or it could cause them trouble. I’d imagine it’s a bit of a legal gray area with regards to transgender people.

I did work in a pub when I was in college and as I understood it we had the right to refuse to serve people and we didn’t have to give a reason why. Obviously that didn’t mean we could stick a sign on the door saying no women and no foreigners but businesses do have some leeway in this regard. But I’m an engineer not a lawyer so I could be wrong.

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Pot-kettle....

How about:

Female features
Female voice
Female figure

Where do you want to stop ? They are "objective" (and yes I know the meaning of that and lots of other words!) criteria to assume someone is female.

Familiar with your work, so have at the response L.

Well the above would be terrible objective criteria.

Female features: the least objective criteria possible. How will we define a wheel lads? Uhhhh it has wheel like features. Problem solved.

Female voice: plenty of cis men with that.

Female figure: Cis men with breast tissue.

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well the above would be terrible objective criteria.

Female features: the least objective criteria possible. How will we define a wheel lads? Uhhhh it has wheel like features. Problem solved.

Female voice: plenty of cis men with that.

Female figure: Cis men with breast tissue.

So it's you who fail to understand the word "objectively". Thought as much.

ELM327

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well the above would be terrible objective criteria.

Female features: the least objective criteria possible. How will we define a wheel lads? Uhhhh it has wheel like features. Problem solved.

Female voice: plenty of cis men with that.

Female figure: Cis men with breast tissue.

How do we define a man? Well it has penis like features.
How do we define a woman? Well it has a vagina and ovaries, amongst many other biological differences.


Job's a good 'un.
Boy, I'm glad I didn't skip those biology lessons in school

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Not influenced by personal beliefs.

Right so you’re going to provide criteria that aren’t influenced by personal belief.....

ELM327

LLMMLL wrote: »

Right so you’re going to provide criteria that aren’t influenced by personal belief.....

I can personally believe I have a penis, or I can believe I'm superwoman.
Doesn't change the actuality that I do have a penis and am not superwoman.

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I read a terrifying article not long ago written by a gay man.

He knew he was gay from 12-13 (to be honest, fitting in with most of the people I know who are gay - the may not come out till later but that's when they know).

His mother tries to convince him he was trans. Bought him female clothes, called him by a feminine version of the name (if memory serves he was called Alex and she called him Alice). They even took him to something called The Mermaid Group ? Not familiar there I'm afraid.

That poor lad just wanted to be who he was but well meaning but wholly misguided parents messed up big time.

They could have had a perfectly, healthy, normal, gay son. But that poor lad - still not an adult - will be recovering from this for some time.

Like I've said before, I'm not trans, or gay - just a bog standard straight female tomboy. My parents bought me Scalextrics, and took me to play and watch footy.

I'm not a parent but I imagine that if you give your kids what THEY need, not what you think they SHOULD need, you'll be left with happy adults who love the bones of you.

What???

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

I can personally believe I have a penis, or I can believe I'm superwoman.
Doesn't change the actuality that I do have a penis and am not superwoman.

I don't have a penis and am currently beginning the lovely pastoral journey of menopause.

Hang on - MENopause ?

Bloody patriatchy.

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

What???

Try to form a question, use your words.

MadYaker

ELM327 wrote: »

I can personally believe I have a penis, or I can believe I'm superwoman.
Doesn't change the actuality that I do have a penis and am not superwoman.

What if a women got the necessary surgeries to make her a man? Would then consider her a man?

PlaneSpeeking

MadYaker wrote: »

What if a women got the necessary surgeries to make her a man? Would then consider her a man?

Absolutely 100% in my opinion.

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

So it's you who fail to understand the word "objectively". Thought as much.

Nope you provided incredibly SUBjective criteria.

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Try to form a question, use your words.

Ok what relevance does your personal story have to the issue at hand?

ELM327

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I don't have a penis and am currently beginning the lovely pastoral journey of menopause.

Hang on - MENopause ?

Bloody patriatchy.

It's always the damn men -even ruining such fun things as menopause.

MadYaker wrote: »

What if a women got the necessary surgeries to make her a man? Would then consider her a man?

I have 2 male to female trans friends in my social cycle, and I would address them as they wish to be addressed, which is as a woman.


At the end of the day, biologically it's the equivalent of putting a dress on a man with a female brain. The body is still male. The adams apple, the jaw line, the testosterone, the shoulders, the different shaped waist/hip/lower back areas, larger hands and feet. It goes on.


I will always respect these people's right to dress or live however they want, but I do not agree with pandering to these people.

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ok what relevance does your personal story have to the issue at hand?

It's called an opinion.

I know you would hate for us to continue to have those but sorry, they will survive.

ELM327

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope you provided incredibly SUBjective criteria.

Is a penis subjective?
Do you ever utter the misnomer "her penis".
It's a thing apparently (pardon the pun)


Link (one of many)

LLMMLL

ELM327 wrote: »

Is a penis subjective?
Do you ever utter the misnomer "her penis".
It's a thing apparently (pardon the pun)


Link (one of many)

The presence of a penis isn’t subjective. It’s use as a criteria is.

And I would say “her penis” if a trans woman still had a penis.

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

It's always the damn men -even ruining such fun things as menopause.






I have 2 male to female trans friends in my social cycle, and I would address them as they wish to be addressed, which is as a woman.


At the end of the day, biologically it's the equivalent of putting a dress on a man with a female brain. The body is still male. The adams apple, the jaw line, the testosterone, the shoulders, the different shaped waist/hip/lower back areas, larger hands and feet. It goes on.


I will always respect these people's right to dress or live however they want, but I do not agree with pandering to these people.

If there is no OBJECTIVE difference between the male and female form - why are clothes designed differently ? You know to encompass the fact that women tend go in at the middle for one!

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

The presence of a penis isn’t subjective. It’s use as a criteria is.

And I would say “her penis” if a trans woman still had a penis.

So in your mind, millennia of biology should be ignored ???

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

If there is no OBJECTIVE difference between the male and female form - why are clothes designed differently ? You know to encompass the fact that women tend go in at the middle for one!

Um aren’t you the one saying you dress in Male clothes?

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

So in your mind, millennia of biology should be ignored ???

Well I wouldn’t take TOO seriously what the Greeks and Persians etc thought about biology.

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

Um aren’t you the one saying you dress in Male clothes?

Yes.

And they come from a men's clothes shop, or the men's section in Tesco or Dunnes.

Or the Jacamo catalogue (for men).

Because there is a difference.

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Yes.

And they come from a men's clothes shop, or the men's section in Tesco or Dunnes.

Or the Jacamo catalogue (for men).

Because there is a difference.

But they mustn’t fit you if there’s an immutable difference in the Male and female form. Are you saying you dress badly?

PlaneSpeeking

And Louise goes on ignore. Only so much nonsense you can read without coffee.

ELM327

LLMMLL wrote: »

The presence of a penis isn’t subjective. It’s use as a criteria is.

And I would say “her penis” if a trans woman still had a penis.

Right
Thanks for identifying yourself as one of those people. Now I can add you to my ignore list, as I have no interest in pandering to social justice warriors.

PlaneSpeeking

LLMMLL wrote: »

But they mustn’t fit you if there’s an immutable difference in the Male and female form. Are you saying you dress badly?

No I'm saying I'm overweight and they fit me better.

But yeah thanks for making me feel bad.

Yay feminism.

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

It's called an opinion.

I know you would hate for us to continue to have those but sorry, they will survive.

What’s the relevance of your opinion to this thread.

One woman treated her child as trans when he was gay. What’s the opinion you’re expressing?

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

Right
Thanks for identifying yourself as one of those people. Now I can add you to my ignore list, as I have no interest in pandering to social justice warriors.

Welcome to the club Elm!

ELM327

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Welcome to the club Elm!

It's great isnt it


LLMMLL This message is hidden because LLMMLL is on your ignore list.

LLMMLL

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

No I'm saying I'm overweight and they fit me better.

But yeah thanks for making me feel bad.

Yay feminism.

Whats that got to do with feminism?

If your restrictive criteria make you feel bad maybe you should drop the criteria.

Both Male and female bodies come in many different shapes and forms.

I support that.

I’m happy for you to have your own body and to dress that way you like. I have no restrictive criteria.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

The presence of a penis isn’t subjective. It’s use as a criteria is.

And I would say “her penis” if a trans woman still had a penis.

Wow.

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wow.

Yeah, that's some mental gymnastics alright.

BattleCorp

LLMMLL wrote: »

The presence of a penis isn’t subjective. It’s use as a criteria is.

And I would say “her penis” if a trans woman still had a penis.

"her penis"

Does not compute.

ELM327

BattleCorp wrote: »

"her penis"

Does not compute.

We're through the looking glass people.
Her penis. And someone defending it.

MadYaker

To be honest if one of my male friends wanted to identify as a women I’d just go with it. So what if I have to refer to him as “her”. The fact that in my thoughts I may still consider this person as male is hardly relevant is it?

PlaneSpeeking

ELM327 wrote: »

We're through the looking glass people.
Her penis. And someone defending it.

Like I said before, not an owner of one but in my youth I'd be fair renter of same - never thought of them as "mine"!!

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

To be honest if one of my male friends wanted to identify as a women I’d just go with it. So what if I have to refer to him as “her”. The fact that in my thoughts I may still consider this person as male is hardly relevant is it?

I'd be the same. However, if a friend INSISTED that I call him a woman, I'd tell him to **** off. Respect has to work both ways

ELM327

MadYaker wrote: »

To be honest if one of my male friends wanted to identify as a women I’d just go with it. So what if I have to refer to him as “her”. The fact that in my thoughts I may still consider this person as male is hardly relevant is it?

Yeah that's my thoughts too, as I said previously

ELM327 wrote: »

I have 2 male to female trans friends in my social cycle, and I would address them as they wish to be addressed, which is as a woman.


At the end of the day, biologically it's the equivalent of putting a dress on a man with a female brain. The body is still male. The adams apple, the jaw line, the testosterone, the shoulders, the different shaped waist/hip/lower back areas, larger hands and feet. It goes on.


I will always respect these people's right to dress or live however they want, but I do not agree with pandering to these people.