Peak Trans

_Kaiser_

This nonsense of legitimising any random notion someone has now gone too far if this is what it leads to (and no I didn't click the link - the pictures above are bad enough).

If you're a grown adult of sound mental health then you can do/believe whatever you want about your sexuality so long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else - which includes not being entitled to whinge if not everyone recognises your choices. Tolerance and acceptance is a two way street.

Anything else however (especially where young children are concerned!) should be called out as the crap it is and those involved should get the mental help they need.

Malayalam

I agree. For adults. It is the conscription of children that I find very disturbing. And the moral relativism being cultivated in the wider population who are too afraid or apathetic to call it out.

And I have seen a lot of objections from LGBT people to it too.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Honestly, I would consider the act of putting prosthetic genitals on a child under five years old to be child abuse, plain and simple. As in.. your child is taken away from you and you are put on the sex offenders list child abuse.

robindch

Malayalam wrote: »

I really feel like exploding sometimes with the push of transgenderism on children.

I don't know where you get your information from.

FWIW, my kid has spent the last seven years in a school here in Dublin which would be regarded as amongst the most "progressive" in the country and she will be leaving it soon, knowing much more about catholicism and islam than she does about transgenderism, about which she - like the rest of her class and, so far as I'm aware, the rest of the school - knows virtually nothing.

The only people pushing the idea that transgenderism is a pervasive, societal threat, especially to children, are people like Jordan Peterson (who makes enormous sums of money from talking up this threat), groups like the Iona Institute (who make political capital from talking up this threat) and movements like the far-right/alt-right neo-Nazis and white supremacists (ditto).

Perhaps you could back up your fear that you will explode with some evidence that your fear is grounded in some kind of reality beyond the reality sold - at high price - by Peterson, the Iona Institute, neo-Nazis and similar people and groups of people?

A webpage selling "small-batch handmade" plastic dicks via a gmail address suggests that, whatever perceived problems there might be with transgenderism, it's going to be a long time before it sweeps Western Civilization off its feet.

DEFTLEFTHAND

We'll probably look back in disgust at this practice, trans children, in 50 yrs time.

The State are also opening up themselves to be sued to kingdom come.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Malayalam wrote: »

that's part of it. Divide and conquer. Take the sting out of real issues by making people crazy.

Apparently the CIA funded some radical feminist groups back in the day. Trade unionism threatens capitalism, identity politics doesn’t.

Franz Von Peppercorn

robindch wrote: »

Perhaps you could back up your fear that you will explode with some evidence that your fear is grounded in some kind of reality beyond the reality sold - at high price - by Peterson, the Iona Institute, neo-Nazis and similar people and groups of people?
.

That’s a list of two groups you don’t like and a Godwin.

And can you think of any other groups hostile to transgenderism, even on the left?

It was pretty big news in London yesterday.

JackTaylorFan

I see the usuals are out on force in this one...

Anyways...

I'll respond once, directly to the OP, and that will be it for this trash heap...

Malayalam wrote: »

I truly do not care what you do with your body or mind - it is your business completely. Feel free!

We will, thanks.

Malayalam wrote: »

But the treatment of children with gender dysphoria is the main social issue of my time with which I have the greatest difficulty.

Newsflash: It's not about you, or anyone else but the individual. Sorry to break it to you, but your privilege doesn't extend that far anymore.

Malayalam wrote: »

Blah... Blah... Blah... Transphobic rhetoric; use of big scary sounding words like "Insidious... Literally, has no medical qualifications and is entirely unsuited to determine the medical policies for an ailing cat, let alone another human... Blah... Blah... Blah... Throw in a few false equivalencies... Blah... Blah... Blah...[/B].

Oh, do go on with your ill-informed ignorance... this is fascinating...

Malayalam wrote: »

A lot of these kids left alone would desist, and/or accept that they are homosexual...

Subject also displays a worrying lack of understanding concerning sexuality, but continues to display a baffling amount of misplaced confidence in their argument.

Malayalam wrote: »

but they are being chaperoned by counsellors and medics to make rapid, irreversible changes. The chemicals will harm them -

"Chaperoned" is the loosest synonym for "cared for" I have ever come across, but okay...

Use of the word "chemicals" as an inherent negative, proving OP hasn't actually got a clue what they are talking about on a very rudimentary level of science - nevermind on an doctorate endocrinological level...

Claims of irreversible changes to children administered with entirely reversible blockers only - again, more moral panic arguments.

Malayalam wrote: »

vascular disease, diabetes, bone density

Again, spurious claims at best. Not enough research has been done into the long term affects of trans healthcare. Also, transitioning males, on suitable hormone replacement therapy for their gender will receive healthy levels of testosterone on par with cis males. Testosterone a hormone, not a "chemical" that significantly aides in strengthening bone density. The other claims OP makes are again conjecture at best.

At this point it is worth pointing out that the OP's argument is skewed heavily on attacking trans females. I mean, I'm not saying he is obsessed... but it sounds like he has a stick up his arse about an issue that really is none of his business...

Bottom-line: It's their body; their choice.

Malayalam wrote: »

The ironic inherent contradiction in the ridiculous ideology when extrapolated to its conclusion is that children given puberty blockers when young are presenting for gender confirmation surgery at adulthood and finding they do not have sufficient genital tissue to accommodate the operation!

Simply wrong (and Ignoring the fact that, once again, OP seems overly concerned with transwomen...), there are other options for gender reassignment surgery for transwomen.

Take the example of Jazz Jennings, since I assume this is the OP's only frame of reference for their misguided opinion.

Here's the full story in two short and sweet links:

Dated June 20th, 2017 https://people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-transgender-bottom-surgery-complications/

And here is a quote from that article for those who will refuse to click, because they don't want to be educated - which, I highly suspect, is most users posting on this thread.

“There’s definitely been a lot of complications in terms of the bottom surgery,” Jennings explained on Tuesday’s PEOPLE Now. “We’ve been talking about it a lot. You’ll see in the show, there’s some problems because I’ve been on the hormone blockers and basically I haven’t had a lot of development — so we’re debating if I have enough material to work with.”

And this is, literally from this week https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jazz-jennings-says-shes-doing-great-after-gender-confirmation-surgery/


Congratulations to Jazz on her successful surgery, by the way.

Malayalam wrote: »

There is absolutely no need for this... blah... blah... blah... I am really upset about transpeople having full autonomy over their own bodies... and I don't even know why... but I typed all this hatred out because I desperately wanted people to listen to me whine about something that doesn't affect me in the slightest...

Malayalam wrote: »

It's quite perverted, because it emphasises sexuality in children to a degree that I find has positively pedophiliac undertones... Blah... Blah... Blah... certifiable nonsense

This is the rag to my bull this morning..... Honestly, I could punch these degenerates. NSFW https://transkids.biz/products/extra-small-silicone-packers

And here we get to the crux of OP's argument (if you can call this ****e that): OP, is obsessed with what children have in their pants - case and point: the link.

If trans boys want to have a prosthetic penis for the aesthetics of it all- what business is of yours? Literally, you are the one making it sexual. Think of it as contour wear for men. I mean, honestly how obsessed do you have to be with this topic to go seeking that out.

You may have a point about there being a pedophillic tone here, though - but that's probably just because you are projecting.


And on a final note:

Malayalam wrote: »

I really feel like exploding sometimes...

Oh, by all means, do.

Edit: a special shout out to all the mods on here, firmly with your hands down your pants as blatant transphobia ensues -it's like you get off on it too or something



Mod-Banned

Will I Am Not

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I see the usuals are out on force in this one...

Anyways...

I'll respond once, directly to the OP, and that will be it for this trash heap...



We will, thanks.



Newsflash: It's not about you, or anyone else but the individual. Sorry to break it to you, but your privilege doesn't extend that far anymore.



Oh, do go on with your ill-informed ignorance... this is fascinating...




Subject also displays a worrying lack of understanding concerning sexuality, but continues to display a baffling amount of misplaced confidence in their argument.



"Chaperoned" is the loosest synonym for "cared for" I have ever come across, but okay...

Use of the word "chemicals" as an inherent negative, proving OP hasn't actually got a clue what they are talking about on a very rudimentary level of science - nevermind on an doctorate endocrinological level...

Claims of irreversible changes to children administered with entirely reversible blockers only - again, more moral panic arguments.



Again, spurious claims at best. Not enough research has been done into the long term affects of trans healthcare. Also, transitioning males, on suitable hormone replacement therapy for their gender will receive healthy levels of testosterone on par with cis males. Testosterone a hormone, not a "chemical" that significantly aides in strengthening bone density. The other claims OP makes are again conjecture at best.

At this point it is worth pointing out that the OP's argument is skewed heavily on attacking trans females. I mean, I'm not saying he is obsessed... but it sounds like he has a stick up his arse about an issue that really is none of his business...

Bottom-line: It's their body; their choice.




Simply wrong (and Ignoring the fact that, once again, OP seems overly concerned with transwomen...), there are other options for gender reassignment surgery for transwomen.

Take the example of Jazz Jennings, since I assume this is the OP's only frame of reference for their misguided opinion.

Here's the full story in two short and sweet links:

Dated June 20th, 2017 https://people.com/tv/jazz-jennings-transgender-bottom-surgery-complications/

And here is a quote from that article for those who will refuse to click, because they don't want to be educated - which, I highly suspect, is most users posting on this thread.



And this is, literally from this week https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jazz-jennings-says-shes-doing-great-after-gender-confirmation-surgery/


Congratulations to Jazz on her successful surgery, by the way.




And here we get to the crux of OP's argument (if you can call this ****e that): OP, is obsessed with what children have in their pants - case and point: the link.

If trans boys want to have a prosthetic penis for the aesthetics of it all- what business is of yours? Literally, you are the one making it sexual. Think of it as contour wear for men. I mean, honestly how obsessed do you have to be with this topic to go seeking that out.

You may have a point about there being a pedophillic tone here, though - but that's probably just because you are projecting.


And on a final note:



Oh, by all means, do.

Edit: a special shout out to all the mods on here, firmly with your hands down your pants as blatant transphobia ensues -it's like you get off on it too or something

Disgusting accusations.

sabat

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

...
Bottom-line: It's their body; their choice...



... If trans boys want to have a prosthetic penis for the aesthetics of it all- what business is of yours? Literally, you are the one making it sexual. Think of it as contour wear for men. I mean, honestly how obsessed do you have to be with this topic to go seeking that out.

Given the shocking suicide rate and high levels of regret following sex change operations it's obvious that many men are not making a true free choice but are being coerced by the medical and media industries into thinking certain mental health problems are something else entirely.
Placing a plastic phallus against a 5 year old girl's vagina and telling her she'll feel better with it there is an act of paedophilia.

deco nate

sabat wrote: »

Given the shocking suicide rate and high levels of regret following sex change operations it's obvious that many men are not making a true free choice but are being coerced by the medical and media industries into thinking certain mental health problems are something else entirely.
Placing a plastic phallus against a 5 year old girl's vagina and telling her she'll feel better with it there is an act of paedophilia.

Holy fcuk, that's enough internet for you tonight..... Or ever!

sabat

deco nate wrote: »

Holy fcuk, that's enough internet for you tonight..... Or ever!

That's exactly what the op describes.

deco nate

sabat wrote: »

That's exactly what the op describes.

It's the last part of your post about paedophilia that was a holy fcuk moment.

Malayalam

robindch wrote: »

I don't know where you get your information from.

FWIW, my kid has spent the last seven years in a school here in Dublin which would be regarded as amongst the most "progressive" in the country and she will be leaving it soon, knowing much more about catholicism and islam than she does about transgenderism, about which she - like the rest of her class and, so far as I'm aware, the rest of the school - knows virtually nothing.

The only people pushing the idea that transgenderism is a pervasive, societal threat, especially to children, are people like Jordan Peterson (who makes enormous sums of money from talking up this threat), groups like the Iona Institute (who make political capital from talking up this threat) and movements like the far-right/alt-right neo-Nazis and white supremacists (ditto).

Perhaps you could back up your fear that you will explode with some evidence that your fear is grounded in some kind of reality beyond the reality sold - at high price - by Peterson, the Iona Institute, neo-Nazis and similar people and groups of people?

A webpage selling "small-batch handmade" plastic dicks via a gmail address suggests that, whatever perceived problems there might be with transgenderism, it's going to be a long time before it sweeps Western Civilization off its feet.

I did say in the OP that the issue is largely for the moment in the US and Australia - you can check out legislation such as California's FAIR Education Act 2017, or the Genderbread Person used in Queensland schools. But it seems to be mostly in internet spaces that children with gender dysphoria congregate and are informed. Referals of children with serious gender identity issues to the Tavistock Institute in the UK rose 10 fold between 2006 and 2016. Ireland went from 1 referal in 2011 to 35 referals in 2017. I have mentioned elsewhwere in this thread about other signifiers that lead me to believe this ideology is attempting to slip into regular life - eg childhood books with no gender designation, or drag kids lauded in mainstream publications. The President of the American College of Pediatricians has described the infiltration of transgender ideology into childhood as large scale child abuse. I am not going to provide exhaustive sources to back up my opinion - you can take it or leave it. You can disagree, that's fine. I may be wrong. That's also fine. Plastic dicks for children however is in my opinion the public sale of highly sexualised paraphanelia for what amounts to toddlers, and not as irrelevant as you seem to find it.

On the subject of far-right/alt-right neo-nazis, I am aware of their existence in passing and find them to be repulsive mouth breathers with low IQs. So no, I do not waste my valuable time on earth listening to them.
I have never knowingly read a single word issued by the Iona Institute, nor been inveigled into any of their opinions, as far as I know.
I listened in the very, very early days to Jordan Peterson, and found him moderately interesting at first. But I often disagreed with him, even then. I do not espouse his promotion of Jung for example. Or Nietzsche, for that matter. I have since become rather bored of his ubiquity, and while I do not feel neagtively towards him - he fulfils some sort of function- I find him generally too repetitive for my tastes,. I like to be stimulated by new ideas and JBP has reached his limit for me in that sense. Funnily enough I have never heard him speak to the issue of transgenderism in children. Or the use of childhood hormones and social transitioning. Perhaps he has. I have never heard it. So I could not have been propagandised by him on this matter.


Jack Taylor Fan, I will not be engaging with you. We have gone a few rounds in the past for which privilege I received unpleasant mail from you. You are entitled to your opinions and I have read them. That is all.

Padraig Mor

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Bottom-line: It's their body; their choice.

At 5 years old? Their body, but someone else's choice is the reality presumably.

Annasopra

sabat wrote: »

Given the shocking suicide rate and high levels of regret following sex change operations it's obvious that many men are not making a true free choice but are being coerced by the medical and media industries into thinking certain mental health problems are something else entirely.
Placing a plastic phallus against a 5 year old girl's vagina and telling her she'll feel better with it there is an act of paedophilia.

A the high levels of suicide are caused mistly by external factors - Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system
B What high level of regret are you referring to?
C Being transgender is no longer considered a mental illness

wexie

Padraig Mor wrote: »

At 5 years old? Their body, but someone else's choice is the reality presumably.

I have a nearly 5 year old and he can't decide from one day to the next if he's more interested in dressing up in his sisters princess dresses and painting his nails or going outside to smash things in his tractor. On occasion he likes to do both at the same time (while wearing his minion wellies).

There's really nothing to be read into that beyond the fact that he's a fickle nearly five year old (or really just a nearly five year old cause they're probably all fickle)

So consequently we just let him at it and treat him like a nearly 5 year old child...

Have to say though I find it amazing to see that believing kids under 10 aren't equipped to make life changing decisions somehow makes me transphobic.

Learn something new about myself every day

Malayalam

wexie wrote: »

I have a nearly 5 year old and he can't decide from one day to the next if he's more interested in dressing up in his sisters princess dresses and painting his nails or going outside to smash things in his tractor. On occasion he likes to do both at the same time (while wearing his minion wellies).

There's really nothing to be read into that beyond the fact that he's a fickle nearly five year old (or really just a nearly five year old cause they're probably all fickle)

So consequently we just let him at it and treat him like a nearly 5 year old child...

Have to say though I find it amazing to see that believing kids under 10 aren't equipped to make life changing decisions somehow makes me transphobic.

Learn something new about myself every day

Sounds exactly like my youngest at that age. Mine also would never be caught dead without wearing his nylon swimming cap.

Thing is the plastic dicks are really just a gross and random visual representation of something more worrying, in my opinion. The administration of puberty blockers at ever younger ages results in invisible changes in the childs sexual development, including less developed genitals (something I saw recently referred to as girldick) and I find making children's mutable sexuality the subject of early intervention chemicals to be genuinely troubling.

Interesting links, thats the first I have heard of Jazz Jennings.

It sounds like fairly strong and serious treatment that she has gone through.

She has had surgery which i presume is irreversible? She seems awfully young for this.


(Mainly I have only heard this discussed on twitter where it is all about beating "terfs")

benjamin d

OP I don't even have a horse in this race but you might want to head over to feedback and defend your honour from this little weasel. This is some shocking behaviour from JackTaylorFan and I'll be disgusted if Boards allows it.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057889376/1/#post107461007

wexie

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

She has had surgery which i presume is irreversible? She seems awfully young for this.

Not old enough to get a tattoo....

Based on

This is partially based on the legal principle that a minor cannot enter into a legal contract or otherwise render informed consent for a procedure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_tattooing_in_the_United_States

Odd times indeed

dudara

benjamin d wrote: »

OP I don't even have a horse in this race but you might want to head over to feedback and defend your honour from this little weasel. This is some shocking behaviour from JackTaylorFan and I'll be disgusted if Boards allows it.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057889376/1/#post107461007

The Feedback forum is not a place to continue an argument from another forum. Feedback is welcome but continued argument is not.
dudara

benjamin d

dudara wrote: »

The Feedback forum is not a place to continue an argument from another forum. Feedback is welcome but continued argument is not.
dudara

You're right, I apologise. I just felt some posters in this thread should be aware of the accusations being thrown around over there.

wexie

dudara wrote: »

The Feedback forum is not a place to continue an argument from another forum. Feedback is welcome but continued argument is not.
dudara

Apologies Dudara, I just posted there, not sure I can still remove it but please do if you feel it's unsuitable for the feedback forum.

If this is a "shockingly transphobic thread", then I think Ireland is doing very well in its progressiveness.

dudara

wexie wrote: »

Apologies Dudara, I just posted there, not sure I can still remove it but please do if you feel it's unsuitable for the feedback forum.

AFAIC, the Feedback topic is if discussions of this type are transphobic. If posts stick to that theme, then we’re fine

wexie

dudara wrote: »

AFAIC, the Feedback topic is if discussions of this type are transphobic. If posts stick to that theme, then we’re fine

Well then I think we're good.

I'm afraid not everyone will agree though

Malayalam

benjamin d wrote: »

OP I don't even have a horse in this race but you might want to head over to feedback and defend your honour from this little weasel. This is some shocking behaviour from JackTaylorFan and I'll be disgusted if Boards allows it.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057889376/1/#post107461007

Nah, honestly, i know they have skin in the game and thus can be naturally quite impassioned. I genuinely think adults can sort themselves as they see fit. I can be quite strident myself if pushed and it's naturally a divisive topic. Just feel that we must have the right to question what is happening, policy wise. I'm not ever going to roll over and accept that gender is divorced from chromosomes. Maybe that makes me a stuffy anachronism but they will just have to wait till I am dead before I stop contributing that pov to the discussion

King of Kings

i read elsewhere that a trans child is like a vegan cat..we all know who really is making the decisions

seems quite accurate

wexie

Malayalam wrote: »

Maybe that makes me a stuffy anachronism

I worry about that myself sometimes, but whenever I sit down and try to think it through I can't help but come to the conclusion that's not what it is.

I think it's much more a case of 'slow down, you're gonna hurt yourself'.

And I'm sure there'll be people who'll want to give me a load of abuse for that comparison....<meh>

I don't really have a lot of time or patience for the kind of person that rather than explain their convictions and try to persuade people they are right will take an attitude of 'if you're not 100% with me then you're against me'.

Beliefs that aren't open to being questioned and examined are dangerous things if you ask me. Of whatever variety they may be.

peasant

If someone were to feed their young boy steroids and anabolica because they wanted them to have the best start in life as a future body builder ...surely that would be considered child abuse

If someone were to stuff a young girl with oestrogen and growth hormones so that they could make a career as a plus size model...again, surely that would be considered to be abuse

But to treat them with hormones to delay/interrupt their puberty to facilitate a future gender change operation...that's supposed to be ok?

How?

Seriously...why does that even need to be discussed?
It just should not be an option.

Am I just naive or "old fashioned"?
Am I missing something?

Malayalam

I don't so much worry about it, as be aware of it. Individual stories of gender identity issues can be very compelling and generate great compassion in me....and I would hate to lose that response. Some of the kids though can seem like narcissistic arseholes, and their parents are even worse. I did an analysis of Pink Boy (a documentary about a transgender child) for a college project, and the child was adorable and seemed genuine. Still though, while I think there is no harm in the child expressing themselves in a gender ''creative'' way and being as feminine as he likes (likewise a tomboy girl), I would not like to see him put on Lupron or Histrelin which will fundamentally alter the glandular system in the developing body. Given the chance to go through puberty the child might learn how to love being in the body that naturally emerges - things so fundamentally change over that time, they might be simply gay and happy to behave in a manner characteristic of the opposite sex but retain fully functioning genitals and fertility... with proper support there is no need for them to hate their pre-adult body. I see LGB people saying that transgender ideology imposed via social policy in childhood is actually a form of rejection of homosexuality.

For me it is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It is too much, too fast, too ideological. And I am not a lone ''phobic'' voice on the matter. Professionals in the field are questioning it too.

Grayson

King of Kings wrote: »

i read elsewhere that a trans child is like a vegan cat..we all know who really is making the decisions

seems quite accurate

Not really. You're saying that that the child is not displaying any characteristics which would be called trans. That it's a completely random decision taken by a parent.

Now I do believe that any decision involving children should not be taken lightly. And I'd even agree that parents wouldn't be the ones who make the decisions. It should be medical professionals and that it shouldn't be a decision that should be taken lightly by them either. Any sort of treatment of a child should be a method of last resort if they are 100% certain that it is the only course of action and it's 100% necessary at that point. It may be that it needs to be decided by a panel of doctors who are top of their fields.

I say all that because I'm not qualified to make that decision. Neither is anyone here. The vast majority of people here have no experience with trans people or gender dysmorphia. Even those that do have experience have a very limited experience, especially on the medical side.

Anyone who says that it's never, ever a decision that should be taken is not basing that on years of extensive medical experience. It is the definition of an ill informed decision.

_Kaiser_

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I see the usuals are out on force in this one...

Anyways...

I'll respond once, directly to the OP, and that will be it for this trash heap...


....


And here we get to the crux of OP's argument (if you can call this ****e that): OP, is obsessed with what children have in their pants - case and point: the link.

If trans boys want to have a prosthetic penis for the aesthetics of it all- what business is of yours? Literally, you are the one making it sexual. Think of it as contour wear for men. I mean, honestly how obsessed do you have to be with this topic to go seeking that out.

You may have a point about there being a pedophillic tone here, though - but that's probably just because you are projecting.


.....



Edit: a special shout out to all the mods on here, firmly with your hands down your pants as blatant transphobia ensues -it's like you get off on it too or something

There is so much wrong with this post, I really don't know where to begin. The victim-hood, the nonsense about "privilege", the name-calling and the particularly vile accusations at the end, with a dig at the moderation thrown in for good measure. Honestly, the use of the term "trash heap" in this post is probably the most ironic thing of all given what follows.

Now to be fair, having read the Feedback thread linked I see that the poster is trans themselves and so the above makes a bit more sense in that they obviously feel personally attacked by the views and opinions on this thread.. and that's fair enough (albeit unfortunate that they feel that way) - except that as with most of these "controversial" topics, it's far more important to read the actual content and intent of the posts rather than just jumping to feeling offended because those posts don't just echo your own position.

In a country which has made huge societal progress in even the past 10 years about how we view people of different sexualities beyond the traditional male/female hetero "default", I think it's extremely unfair to level some of the accusations that were made in the above post.
No one (in my view anyway) has expressed any hatred or fear of transgenderism, but rather a legitimate concern about performing medical procedures and the use of prosthetics on what are little more than toddlers.

As the parent of a 6 year old myself, it's blatantly obvious to me that these decisions are being made by adults in-line with their own worldview and perception of what the(ir) child's behaviour "means", but that is a fundamental violation of a parent's duty to protect their child IMO.

By all means, provide a supportive, judgement-free safe environment for them to "be themselves" (which again should be what EVERY parent strives for), but they're simply too young at that age to be reading anything more into it than simple curiosity or play.
Now if they continue to show a bias towards behaviour more associated with the opposite sex as they enter their teens, then maybe it's time to start thinking about other supports... but that should absolutely not happen until the child themselves can express a desire or questions for it.

In my view, THAT is how you support a child who may or may not be trans... not "projecting" (to borrow from the poster above) your own adult biases and agendas onto a toddler who may just like dressing up like mammy occasionally because she's probably the most important person in his life.



As a side note, I manage a team of people and one of them (based in the US) has actually begun the transition from male to female in the past year. They have had some work done on their voice and changed their physical appearance/clothing and chosen a new name, and I'm glad to say that there has been absolutely no issues during this time and indeed everyone locally has been very supportive, but equally the individual themselves realises that it is a change and adjustment for people too, and has been very understanding of the occasional "name-slip" etc.

For me personally it makes absolutely no difference to how I perceive them as a employee. They're still the same good, proactive dedicated member of the team they've always been and in my view that's how it SHOULD be... someone's sexuality shouldn't be a factor in the workplace. It SHOULD be a "non-issue".


The same thing applies here.... as adults with the capability of making informed choices and decisions about their lives, I don't think anyone here has a problem with how someone else chooses to live theirs.

But children are a different matter, and until they reach a stage where they too can make those informed decisions, no-one else should be making such life-changing decisions for them.. not even their parents.

peasant

Grayson wrote: »

Anyone who says that it's never, ever a decision that should be taken is not basing that on years of extensive medical experience. It is the definition of an ill informed decision.

Wait until the first person who got their puberty medically interfered with only to find out afterwards that their chosen gender is what it was at birth and is now severely disfigured/disturbed, sues the living daylights out of the medical profession and the state for facilitating this...then let's have this discussion again.

Malayalam

Well put Kaiser. I think your attitude reflects the approach of most reasonably minded people. We meet people as individuals and we all have our struggles.

The encroachment of ideology is at the foundations of this ...well...I am going to call it 'hysteria' towards gender affirmation in childhood. Ideas have to be implanted first before they can take off in the physical world. And ideas ARE being implanted. As an example here is a production from Planned Parenthood Ottawa, dated May 2017, as far as I can make out



This is just anti-science post-modern malarkey. There is no ''truth'', there is just your feelings about things. :rolleyes: It does not make for more broad minded children, it just makes for idiocy.
Edit - elementary school students are 6-13 years old

Grayson

peasant wrote: »

Wait until the first person who got their puberty medically interfered with only to find out afterwards that their chosen gender is what it was at birth and is now severely disfigured/disturbed, sues the living daylights out of the medical profession and the state for facilitating this...then let's have this discussion again.

I bet a panel of medical experts had never ever considered that. This is the kind of knowledge that the entire medical profession is missing and it's the reason why you're far better at making these decisions than experts.

That was of course sarcasm. I'm pointing that out because it needs to be pointed out. You seem to actually think that doctors don't consider that they might make a bad decision and err on the side of caution and that a doctor had never ever considered being sued for malpractice.

wexie

Grayson wrote: »

That was of course sarcasm. I'm pointing that out because it needs to be pointed out. You seem to actually think that doctors don't consider that they might make a bad decision and err on the side of caution and that a doctor had never ever considered being sued for malpractice.

Personally I would like to think that is the case, but apparently there seems to be a movement out there with the idea that all that is needed to start transitioning is the consent of the patient.

Something to do with the fact that examining the belief of the patient being trans would somehow invalidate them and be considered transphobic in and of itself.

Annasopra

wexie wrote: »

Personally I would like to think that is the case, but apparently there seems to be a movement out there with the idea that all that is needed to start transitioning is the consent of the patient.

Something to do with the fact that examining the belief of the patient being trans would somehow invalidate them and be considered transphobic in and of itself.

No

You seem to misunderstand. Legal transition is self declared here in Ireland. Medical transition would require much more than self declared consent.

Ulysses Gaze

Malayalam wrote: »

Well put Kaiser. I think your attitude reflects the approach of most reasonably minded people. We meet people as individuals and we all have our struggles.

The encroachment of ideology is at the foundations of this ...well...I am going to call it 'hysteria' towards gender affirmation in childhood. Ideas have to be implanted first before they can take off in the physical world. And ideas ARE being implanted. As an example here is a production from Planned Parenthood Ottawa, dated May 2017, as far as I can make out



This is just anti-science post-modern malarkey. There is no ''truth'', there is just your feelings about things. :rolleyes: It does not make for more broad minded children, it just makes for idiocy.
Edit - elementary school students are 6-13 years old

This no different to Flat-Earthers.

Madness.

wexie

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No

You seem to misunderstand.

That is entirely possible

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Legal transition is self declared here in Ireland. Medical transition would require much more than self declared consent.

I presume that's the case everywhere no?

Like I said it's entirely possible I'm misinformed but it was my understanding Ireland is still quite conservative in these matters?

Wibbs

Grayson wrote: »

I bet a panel of medical experts had never ever considered that. This is the kind of knowledge that the entire medical profession is missing and it's the reason why you're far better at making these decisions than experts.

Actually there are serious concerns within medical science over the last few years over dubious scientific "research" being taken as medical fact. The Lancet has noted it more than once in editorials. Never mind that medical science is not static(which is good, that's how science works), it's not immune to social, financial and political influence and "fashions" and there are plenty of examples of medical science and experts getting it partially or wholly wrong for quite long periods of time. EG operations for glue ear, electroshock therapy, lobotomy, routine tonsillectomies and routine circumcision have all come and gone with the full support of medical experts and medical science. Indeed one can predict going by age group or culture which of those procedures you're likely to have had. This kinda thing didn't magically stop because it's the present day, though every generation tends to think that.

Consider this: Transexuality was down as a mental illness until how recently? And experts were pretty sure of that diagnosis. Often the same ones who agree with the new definitions. Just because a position has changed in a way that some may find more acceptable doesn't mean it's correct and it didn't mean it was correct in the past.

Malayalam wrote: »

This is just anti-science post-modern malarkey. There is no ''truth'', there is just your feelings about things. :rolleyes: It does not make for more broad minded children, it just makes for idiocy.
Edit - elementary school students are 6-13 years old

Note how they drop in the emotive stuff about how kids just "get it". Let's get real here for a moment and set aside this disneyfication of childhood of the last century, kids get feck all about this stuff at that age, they base the reality of the world on how it's presented by their culture and parents. Those same kids if they were from 1950's Ireland would "get it" in a less palatable way for the poster authors.

Malayalam

Wibbs wrote: »

EG operations for glue ear, electroshock therapy, lobotomy, routine tonsillectomies and routine circumcision have all come and gone with the full support of medical experts and medical science.

Good clear uncontroversial examples. thanks Wibbs. There are also some studies showing bad side effects for blockers given many years ago for precocious puberty eg bone density problems.

Grayson

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually there are serious concerns within medical science over the last few years over dubious scientific "research" being taken as medical fact. The Lancet has noted it more than once in editorials. Never mind that medical science is not static(which is good, that's how science works), it's not immune to social, financial and political influence and "fashions" and there are plenty of examples of medical science and experts getting it partially or wholly wrong for quite long periods of time. EG operations for glue ear, electroshock therapy, lobotomy, routine tonsillectomies and routine circumcision have all come and gone with the full support of medical experts and medical science. Indeed one can predict going by age group or culture which of those procedures you're likely to have had. This kinda thing didn't magically stop because it's the present day, though every generation tends to think that.

Consider this: Transexuality was down as a mental illness until how recently? And experts were pretty sure of that diagnosis. Often the same ones who agree with the new definitions. Just because a position has changed in a way that some may find more acceptable doesn't mean it's correct and it didn't mean it was correct in the past.

Note how they drop in the emotive stuff about how kids just "get it". Let's get real here for a moment and set aside this disneyfication of childhood of the last century, kids get feck all about this stuff at that age, they base the reality of the world on how it's presented by their culture and parents. Those same kids if they were from 1950's Ireland would "get it" in a less palatable way for the poster authors.

But none of that changes the fact that medical experts know a heel of a lot more than you or me. Sure you can point at some conflicting studies but that just shows disagreement about a few particular points, it doesn't disprove the vast majority of evidence along with the overwhelming experience of trans people. Now if you want to we can take the disputed study you're referring to and we can use that to reject all studies in this area and say that the experts here know nothing of value, but that's kinda getting into the area of conspiracies and denying science.

I stand by my position that decisions about this are best left to people who have extensive knowledge and experience and that any knowledge posters here have, including me, is extremely limited.

The Bishop Basher

Like many here I couldn’t give a monkeys what gender you want to call yourself as long as you don’t..

1) Expect me to deny scientific fact
2) Require me to change my behavior

Trans people form less then .5% of the population. We live in a very straight and binary world. Everyone should be accommodated and treated equally to a point but there will always be minority groups who feel hard done by..

Life’s not fair.

Taytoland

Sick and tired of hearing about LGBT all the time, daily on TV or radio etc, propaganda which can be smelled a mile off.

Grayson

Taytoland wrote: »

Sick and tired of hearing about LGBT all the time, daily on TV or radio etc, propaganda which can be smelled a mile off.

Would you be in favor of a Russian styled law which would ban it?

The strange thing is that I don't hear this stuff all day long. And when I do it doesn't bother me. Maybe you should ask why it bothers you.

An_Toirpin

Extraordinary how far FG have gone down the road of the science-denying road of progressive transism.

An_Toirpin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No

You seem to misunderstand. Legal transition is self declared here in Ireland. Medical transition would require much more than self declared consent.

Exactly. We already have a law that gives into to this lunacy.

Wibbs

Grayson wrote: »

But none of that changes the fact that medical experts know a heel of a lot more than you or me. Sure you can point at some conflicting studies but that just shows disagreement about a few particular points, it doesn't disprove the vast majority of evidence along with the overwhelming experience of trans people.

The WHO had being trans as a mental disorder as late as 2016. So not exactly decades ago. And as I said many of the same experts who were OK with it being described as such are now not OK with it and the "vast majority of evidence" supported both positions until quite recently. Personally I wouldn't have labeled it a mental illness, though could see why it was and many trans people present with mental illnesses because of their condition. I would label it a gender condition, with a side order of dysmorphia.