Peak Trans

Malayalam

Fair play to you LLMMLL, though. You are assailed from all sides. It's a tough job You have the stamina of a (non-binary) horse.

_Kaiser_

Malayalam wrote: »

That's kind of life, though. Navigating the obstacle course between one tosser after another :pac:

This is the point though - life isn't fair or easy most of the time, and there are a lot of rules/laws or just general practises that everyone runs into that they disagree with or affect them.

For the main though we live in a very relaxed, open and tolerant society and that's definitely a good thing.

But where trivial difficulties arise, you can get outraged and hurt about it, or just get on with it or go elsewhere.

It's simply impossible to try and accommodate every randomer's individual opinion or feeling on an issue, and even less so to legislate for it.

All that happens is that people get fed up and desensitised to the far larger and more damaging issues.

HappyAsLarE

LLMMLL wrote: »

This is all just your personal opinion. I’ve no idea what 100 scientists and doctors would say. Neither do you. If you think you do then you’re also “lying”.

I have a good idea. Maybe I’m smarter than a real scientist.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sigh all you like, but regardless of whether someone is born in what they perceive to be the wrong body, no matter of surgery will change the fact that they are biologically a man or a woman.

They’ll lack some of the typical Biological markers associated with women (many cis women do too), and they’ll gain some.

LLMMLL

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

I have a good idea. Maybe I’m smarter than a real scientist.

You don’t. You’ve just made up a fake appeal to authority. I could do that too but I think it’s silly and ultimately futile so I won’t bother.

kubjones

kildare lad wrote: »

Im sorry but thats child abuse in my eyes. Kids have a hard enough time in school without being confused by their weird parents. Let kids be kids, and shove your PC genderist agenda up your arse.

Its fairly normal in Sweden though and doesn't really harm the children or prove anything.

Children that were born as as male almost always gravitate towards traditionally masculine patterns even more-so than other western countries, and likewise with women.

I don't think its harmful, but studies also show that its not really productive either. You're changing language just for the sake of keeping a few outliers happy.

Rory28

Malayalam wrote: »

Fair play to you LLMMLL, though. You are assailed from all sides. It's a tough job You have the stamina of a (non-binary) horse.

have to agree here. LLMMLL playing a blinder in here today. Fair play dude.

Sal Butamol

Peak lunacy

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

They’ll lack some of the typical Biological markers associated with women (many cis women do too), and they’ll gain some.

But what about those inconvenient biological markers called chromosomes? You know, DNA? Genes? The actual hard science of molecular genetics? The actual fundamental map, blueprint, software that determines the human body?

LLMMLL

o1s1n wrote: »

No, as the original example we were discussing (which is a little lost in all of the posts) was based on a situation where a trans woman hadn't told anyone they were trans (and still dressed as a male). Therefore I pointed out that they were, to everyone else, still a man.

You refuted that by saying they were 'a woman'.

My question was 'to whom?'.

What we subjectively experience in our minds and identify as and what other people identify us as upon seeing and interacting with us are two different things.

Yes but I would expect someone to know whether they are Male or female themselves. Other people can be mistaken.

Just as some people assume gay people are straight. I’d assume the person themselves know better.

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

But what about those inconvenient biological markers called chromosomes? You know, DNA? Genes? The actual hard science of molecular genetics? The actual fundamental map, blueprint, software that determines the human body?

Those only came into it when people discovered that their other “objective criteria” were being assailed.

I fully expect that if someday we can change our chromosomes to those typically associated with Male or
Female then people on this thread will still claim a transgender woman is a man and come up with some other criteria.

For the moment you are right. DNA can’t be changed. Just like a womb can’t be gained.

Neyite

kubjones wrote: »

Its fairly normal in Sweden though and doesn't really harm the children or prove anything.

Children that were born as as male almost always gravitate towards traditionally masculine patterns even more-so than other western countries, and likewise with women.

I don't think its harmful, but studies also show that its not really productive either. You're changing language just for the sake of keeping a few outliers happy.

How much of that is unconscious treatment by the adults around them though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes but I would expect someone to know whether they are Male or female themselves. Other people can be mistaken.

Just as some people assume gay people are straight. I’d assume the person themselves know better.

Why do people conflate homosexuality with transgenderism? They are not the same thing. Not even remotely close.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

Those only came into it when people discovered that their other “objective criteria” were being assailed.

I fully expect that if someday we can change our chromosomes to those typically associated with Male or
Female then people on this thread will still claim a transgender woman is a man and come up with some other criteria.

For the moment you are right. DNA can’t be changed. Just like a womb can’t be gained.

So, at genetic level humans are male or female, and occasionally intersex?

Rory28

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do people conflate homosexuality with transgenderism? They are not the same thing. Not even remotely close.

He didn't. Some gay guys are known "Straight Acting". Not a fan of the term myself. It was an analogy.

kubjones

Neyite wrote: »

How much of that is unconscious treatment by the adults around them though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

Impossible to determine. From looking at Sweden over the last 20 years, the main information that can be discerned is that when gender archetypes are removed from the system from everything other than the parents can influence, the rate that children fell into traditionally normal gender roles was greater than the 20 years previously and also in many Western countries which can be argued enforce gender archetypes.

LLMMLL

Rennaws wrote: »

I didn’t ask if there was a clear boundary. You said a significant number of people with penis’s claim to be women. I asked you what is that significant number ?



Well how many people with penis’s have to proclaim themselves as women before we have a large enough percentage to revisit the criteria by which we determine genders ? What percentage would be statistically relevant. Surely this would be bread and butter to a scientist.

Any scientist would recognise that these things are undefinable.

Statistically relevant has no meaning in the sense you are saying. After many calculations There are certain probabilities that a hypothesis about a population is false. A result is statistically SIGNIFICANT if the probability it is false is below 5% (usually).

Statistics can’t be used to come up with a percentage of the population that share a feature which becomes scientifically interesting though.

Rory28

Rory28 wrote: »

He didn't. Some gay guys are known "Straight Acting". Not a fan of the term myself. It was an analogy.

Fair enough, I just have seen gay people brought into this argument on more than a couple of occasions and find it odd.

_Kaiser_

Neyite wrote: »

How much of that is unconscious treatment by the adults around them though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

The biggest problem with that video IMO is dressing the kids up in "opposite" clothing and referring to them by different names to satisfy an "experiment".

Kids are kids and should be let find their own way, but you cannot deny biology, and rejecting social norms purely to push an agenda or appear "progressive" is far more damaging.

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

So, at genetic level humans are male or female, and occasionally intersex?

I actually have no idea what the biological differences are at the genetic level apart from the whole “XX” vs “XY” chromosomes.

But the concepts of Male and female have been around a lot longer than our knowledge of genetics.

Let’s be honest here. What attracts people to that criteria is (as yet) it cannot be changed.

If at some point in the future we can change things at the genetic level, then those people who claim this is the defining criteria will retreat to bleating “oh but you were born with a penis”.

KrustyUCC

Don't forget: Dublin's first ever Trans Pride March takes place tomorrow

“This is a protest for all of us, not just some.”

On their Facebook page, the organisers outline what they are marching for.

All our posters are up around Dublin City! Thank you so much to the volunteers who put them up! #DublinTransPride #TakeBackPride pic.twitter.com/9UsYKZAhnx
— Trans Pride Dublin (@DubTrans) July 26, 2018

These demands include:
Free trans healthcare.
An end to IGM (Intersex genital mutilation).
Legislation for non-binary people.
An end to violence against trans people.
Funding for trans-inclusive mental health services.
An end to direct provision.
Funding for social housing.
A reformed justice system that treats victims of hate crimes, transphobic violence and sexual assault with respect and dignity.
Free access to PrEP.
A ban on conversion therapy.
An end to the blood ban.
Decriminalisation of sex work.
Free, safe and legal access to abortion.
They also call for the separation of church and state, the introduction of inclusive sex education, an end to gender segregated schools and school uniforms.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/dublins-first-ever-trans-pride-march-takes-place-tomorrow-4151594-Jul2018/

kildare lad

kubjones wrote: »

Its fairly normal in Sweden though and doesn't really harm the children or prove anything.

Children that were born as as male almost always gravitate towards traditionally masculine patterns even more-so than other western countries, and likewise with women. .

Thats the point though, it doesnt prove anything or benefit the child so why bother. If i was the principal, id think the parent was a weirdo. Whatever happened to the innocence of childhood. Where kids could be kids withoot their parents pushing their gender crap on them. Im a liberal enough bloke, i voted for gay marriage and abortion, but the more SJW crap i see and read about its starting to really bug me.

whisky_galore

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Don't forget: Dublin's first ever Trans Pride March takes place tomorrow

“This is a protest for all of us, not just some.”

On their Facebook page, the organisers outline what they are marching for.

All our posters are up around Dublin City! Thank you so much to the volunteers who put them up! #DublinTransPride #TakeBackPride pic.twitter.com/9UsYKZAhnx
— Trans Pride Dublin (@DubTrans) July 26, 2018

These demands include:
Free trans healthcare.
An end to IGM (Intersex genital mutilation).
Legislation for non-binary people.
An end to violence against trans people.
Funding for trans-inclusive mental health services.
An end to direct provision.
Funding for social housing.
A reformed justice system that treats victims of hate crimes, transphobic violence and sexual assault with respect and dignity.
Free access to PrEP.
A ban on conversion therapy.
An end to the blood ban.
Decriminalisation of sex work.
Free, safe and legal access to abortion.
They also call for the separation of church and state, the introduction of inclusive sex education, an end to gender segregated schools and school uniforms.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/dublins-first-ever-trans-pride-march-takes-place-tomorrow-4151594-Jul2018/

"What do we want?"

"All of the things."

Free trans healthcare?

Get t'****.

DEFTLEFTHAND

whisky_galore wrote: »

"What do we want?"

"All of the things."

Its always big daddy state who has to provide everything on a silver platter.

Be strong, be independent, make your own way in life.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The blood ban demand is creepy as fck.

Do they not understand the reasons behind the ban.

o1s1n

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Don't forget: Dublin's first ever Trans Pride March takes place tomorrow

“This is a protest for all of us, not just some.”

On their Facebook page, the organisers outline what they are marching for.

All our posters are up around Dublin City! Thank you so much to the volunteers who put them up! #DublinTransPride #TakeBackPride pic.twitter.com/9UsYKZAhnx
— Trans Pride Dublin (@DubTrans) July 26, 2018

These demands include:
Free trans healthcare.
An end to IGM (Intersex genital mutilation).
Legislation for non-binary people.
An end to violence against trans people.
Funding for trans-inclusive mental health services.
An end to direct provision.
Funding for social housing.
A reformed justice system that treats victims of hate crimes, transphobic violence and sexual assault with respect and dignity.
Free access to PrEP.
A ban on conversion therapy.
An end to the blood ban.
Decriminalisation of sex work.
Free, safe and legal access to abortion.
They also call for the separation of church and state, the introduction of inclusive sex education, an end to gender segregated schools and school uniforms.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/dublins-first-ever-trans-pride-march-takes-place-tomorrow-4151594-Jul2018/

It's like they held a meeting to discuss their aims and nobodies idea was deemed irrelevant due to inclusiveness.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

I actually have no idea what the biological differences are at the genetic level apart from the whole “XX” vs “XY” chromosomes.

But the concepts of Male and female have been around a lot longer than our knowledge of genetics.

Let’s be honest here. What attracts people to that criteria is (as yet) it cannot be changed.

If at some point in the future we can change things at the genetic level, then those people who claim this is the defining criteria will retreat to bleating “oh but you were born with a penis”.

The XX and XY are called the sex chromosomes.

In humans, half of spermatozoons carry X chromosome and the other half Y chromosome.[3] A single gene (SRY) present on the Y chromosome acts as a signal to set the developmental pathway towards maleness. Presence of this gene starts off the process of virilization. This and other factors result in the sex differences in humans.[4] The cells in females, with two X chromosomes, undergo X-inactivation, in which one of the two X chromosomes is inactivated. The inactivated X chromosome remains within a cell as a Barr body. ~ Wikipedia

The protein and DNA in the chromosomes determine the fundamentals of biological sex in the human body. These fundamentals do not change at a genetic level. Synthetic hormones may retard secondary characteristics, but if the chemicals are not available the DNA will swing back in to assert biological sex, though whether or not the retardation can be fully compensated for in areas such as bone density or cognitive development is uncertain).

You have mentioned changing the Chromosomes a few times. It is not that simple. Genes are hugely complex and inter-related and biological gender is a cascade of different genes interacting. We will be fairly deep into transhumanist territory by the time we are altering biological sex at DNA levels.

You are the scientist, you should know this. I am a housewife and I know it.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

Let’s be honest here. What attracts people to that criteria is (as yet) it cannot be changed.

And let me be honest here, it is not that this criteria (DNA) ''attracts'' me...it is that I am fecking gobsmacked that in order to be considered a kind human being (which I am!) I am asked to spit the truth out and tell lies about the fundamental biology of gender.

I will attend this march tomorrow with great interest

Graces7

Unbelievable

http://www.thejournal.ie/transgender-man-compensation-workplace-relations-commission-4149362-Jul2018/

MadYaker

Free healthcare but just for trans people? That doesn’t sound very inclusive to me.

o1s1n

Graces7 wrote: »

Unbelievable

http://www.thejournal.ie/transgender-man-compensation-workplace-relations-commission-4149362-Jul2018/

They actually managed to fit the word 'he' 32 times into that article.

32.

Times.

Graces7

o1s1n wrote: »

They actually managed to fit the word 'he' 32 times into that article.

32.

Times.

Well gee! Lest anyone else .....Trouble is the appearance is definitely.. dare I say it, female...

DEFTLEFTHAND

o1s1n wrote: »

They actually managed to fit the word 'he' 32 times into that article.

32.

Times.

Comment section seems to have been disabled.

BattleCorp

o1s1n wrote: »

It's like they held a meeting to discuss their aims and nobodies idea was deemed irrelevant due to inclusiveness.

They left out World Peace.

manual_man

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Comment section seems to have been disabled.

For 'legal reasons'. Which anyone with an iota of sense knows is absolutely BS since the court judgement has already been made

BattleCorp

KrustyUCC wrote: »

These demands include:
Free trans healthcare.
An end to IGM (Intersex genital mutilation).
Legislation for non-binary people.
An end to violence against trans people.
Funding for trans-inclusive mental health services.
An end to direct provision.
Funding for social housing.
A reformed justice system that treats victims of hate crimes, transphobic violence and sexual assault with respect and dignity.
Free access to PrEP.
A ban on conversion therapy.
An end to the blood ban.
Decriminalisation of sex work.
Free, safe and legal access to abortion.
They also call for the separation of church and state, the introduction of inclusive sex education, an end to gender segregated schools and school uniforms.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/dublins-first-ever-trans-pride-march-takes-place-tomorrow-4151594-Jul2018/

Awwwww. I quite enjoy it when my missus wears a school uniform.

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

The XX and XY are called the sex chromosomes.



The protein and DNA in the chromosomes determine the fundamentals of biological sex in the human body. These fundamentals do not change at a genetic level. Synthetic hormones may retard secondary characteristics, but if the chemicals are not available the DNA will swing back in to assert biological sex, though whether or not the retardation can be fully compensated for in areas such as bone density or cognitive development is uncertain).

You have mentioned changing the Chromosomes a few times. It is not that simple. Genes are hugely complex and inter-related and biological gender is a cascade of different genes interacting. We will be fairly deep into transhumanist territory by the time we are altering biological sex at DNA levels.

You are the scientist, you should know this. I am a housewife and I know it.

I’d be a fairly ****ty scientist if I pretended to know everything.

You know about it because you read about it. I don’t know about it because I haven’t read about it.

Or do you think scientists know everything about every science?

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

And let me be honest here, it is not that this criteria (DNA) ''attracts'' me...it is that I am fecking gobsmacked that in order to be considered a kind human being (which I am!) I am asked to spit the truth out and tell lies about the fundamental biology of gender.

Nobody’s asking you to say anything you don’t agree with about DNA. You’re just being challenged on your notions of using this and other markers as criteria for being considered Male or female.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’d be a fairly ****ty scientist if I pretended to know everything.

You know about it because you read about it. I don’t know about it because I haven’t read about it.

Or do you think scientists know everything about everywhere science?

I agree. But your speciality subject in this thread seems to be gender, and so perhaps a bit of back-reading into the science would be appropriate?

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

I agree. But your speciality subject in this thread seems to be gender, and so perhaps a bit of back-reading into the science would be appropriate?

Nope never said my specialty subject was gender.

I don’t really see your point as I’ve agreed the genetic basis of sexual differences will be unchangeable for the foreseeable future. I reject this as a criteria for categorising someone as Male or female.

Is there anything ive ACTUALLY said that reading up on genetics would contradict?

ceadaoin.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nobody’s asking you to say anything you don’t agree with about DNA. You’re just being challenged on your notions of using this and other markers as criteria for being considered Male or female.

So DNA, chromosomes, and you know, actual observable biological indicators defining male and female are "notions" now?

Yet someone "feeling like" they are in fact the opposite sex is totally legit and overrules all that? Lol

Words have to mean something. There is still going to be an unchangeable biological sex regardless of how a person identifies. We have definitions for those, which include all the identifying characteristics - male and female.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nobody’s asking you to say anything you don’t agree with about DNA. You’re just being challenged on your notions of using this and other markers as criteria for being considered Male or female.

From the beginning I have held to the basic science of gender biology - the fundamentals. That is where I have the problem - the ideology of transgenderism pushes an idea, especially in childhood education and social policy towards gender dysphoria in children, as has been referenced many, many times in this thread, that gender is a social construct. It is not. It is biological. People are not born in the ''wrong bodies''. Adults may access modern science to adjust their bodies to their desires, but if we as a civilisation do not hold rationally to science with respect to our children's education and nurture, we are going to be really messed up in the future.

Calhoun

whisky_galore wrote: »

"What do we want?"

"All of the things."

They are going for the tried and tested, we will make it about everything so we can get more support on side.

Its like lets look at these a bit.

Free trans healthcare. - Why would trans folk get free healthcare when everyone else has to pay?
An end to IGM (Intersex genital mutilation). - Interesting considering the stance on hormone blockers ect for kids.
Legislation for non-binary people. - What kind of legislation? Hopefully we won't recognize this BS.
An end to violence against trans people. - Legitimate ask
Funding for trans-inclusive mental health services. - Legitimate ask but i feel this part of our health service is fundamentally broke.
An end to direct provision. - How is this a trans issue?
Funding for social housing. - How is this a trans issue?
A reformed justice system that treats victims of hate crimes, transphobic violence and sexual assault with respect and dignity. - Looks like a legitimate ask but like most asks this one will be putting these groups on a pedestal.
Free access to PrEP. - Why should we be giving free access to HIV drugs?
A ban on conversion therapy. - Legitimate ask
An end to the blood ban. - I would question the validity of this ask if Trans people for some reason cannot engage in safe sex (as per the free access to PrEP)
Decriminalisation of sex work. - How is this a trans issue?
Free, safe and legal access to abortion. - How is this a trans issue?
They also call for the separation of church and state, the introduction of inclusive sex education, an end to gender segregated schools and school uniforms. - Legitimate ask to an extent i am not sure what School Uniforms have to do with it though. As for the sex education i would like to know what is going to be taught from an inclusive perspective.

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

From the beginning I have held to the basic science of gender biology - the fundamentals. That is where I have the problem - the ideology of transgenderism pushes an idea, especially in childhood education and social policy towards gender dysphoria in children, as has been referenced many, many times in this thread, that gender is a social construct. It is not. It is biological. People are not born in the ''wrong bodies''. Adults may access modern science to adjust their bodies to their desires, but if we as a civilisation do not hold rationally to science with respect to our children's education and nurture, we are going to be really messed up in the future.

I’m not talking about whether gender is a social construct or not.

I’m talking about trans people. Being trans is perfectly compatible with a biological basis for gender.

LLMMLL

ceadaoin. wrote: »

So DNA, chromosomes, and you know, actual observable biological indicators defining male and female are "notions" now?

Yet someone "feeling like" they are in fact the opposite sex is totally legit and overrules all that? Lol

Words have to mean something. There is still going to be an unchangeable biological sex regardless of how a person identifies. We have definitions for those, which include all the indentifying characteristics - male and female.

Yes I think women “feel like” they are women. Trans women included.

Malayalam

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m not talking about whether gender is a social construct or not.

I’m talking about trans people. Being trans is perfectly compatible with a biological basis for gender.

I appreciate that you have made the effort back and forth, LLMMLL. I cannot argue anymore against this meringue of ideology you are throwing out anymore, it's too tiring, and repetitive. Just don't use your ideology to fcuk with the children's health, okay, and otherwise do what you want.

LLMMLL

Malayalam wrote: »

I appreciate that you have made the effort back and forth, LLMMLL. I cannot argue anymore against this meringue of ideology you are throwing out anymore, it's too tiring, and repetitive. Just don't use your ideology to fcuk with the children's health, okay, and otherwise do what you want.

That’s fine. I’d also ask that you don’t use your ideology to **** with trans people’s mental health. Whether they be adults or children.

ceadaoin.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes I think women “feel like” they are women. Trans women included.

I "feel like" a woman because I am an adult female human. I have periods, I've given birth, I have hormonal fluctuations. All those "feelings" are entirely based on my biology.