Peak Trans

Maxpfizer

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

In reply to Mazpfizer;
Surely if the child has male genitalia then it's easy to explain to them how they are male and why that is the case?

You can explain why they were born with certain genitalia, that does not provide answers and support with regards to how they are feeling

Then it's just a case of allowing them to express themselves in whichever way they choose while keeping them grounded by explaining biology?

What if they don't accept that? What if they tell you they are disgusted by their bodies and it is not their own and they cannot live in it?

It always seemed to me that a huge part of these issues come down to the connotations or the baggage that comes with the terms "male" and "female" or "boy" and "girl".

So just because a person has male genitalia they don't necessarily need to conform to some rigid male behavior or expectation.

What you are saying here is that transgender kids should be happy with not conforming to societal norms, rather than being happy living their authentic lives

However, I fail to see how they would be able to escape the reality of having male biology.

Surely this doesn't only apply to gender related issues in kids?

It would seem logical to me that a child who has difficulty understanding certain aspects and grasping certain facts of reality in ANY circumstance at all would be a risk for depression, self harm, suicide etc? Even worse when attempts to explain reality to the child fail and they continue to experience dysphoria.

Dysphoria is not a mental illness. Also, you're statements and tone (i.e. the use of the word "reality" are I'd imagine very insulting to any transgender person. Is what they are experiencing and feeling not "reality" too?

While I agree with you that it's not good to ignore or force the child and it's awful to just leave them to be miserable and to neglect their mental health, what are the legitimate, positive, solutions to this problem?

Being open, speaking to your kids, educating your kids on all gender issues. Speaking with your GP. Counselling. Engaging with support groups like TENI, theres plenty of solutions.

Is there any chance that it's also harmful to completely indulge them and go all in on gender reassignment etc?

Impossible to gereralise, every situation would need looked at individually

Honestly, it feels like you don't have any solutions at all here.

I am well aware that dysphoria is not a mental illness, thanks.

It still seems to me that having male or female genitalia or being biologically male or female is a reality that may be inescapable.

Your answers have really only solidified my view that there is a big issue with the baggage that comes with the terms "male" and "female".

We are at the point where you are saying that the use of the word "reality" is insulting.

So, my conclusion is that a lot of these kinds of conversations actually do center around the baggage that comes with certain words.

If someone has male genitalia then that's what they've got and that's it. However, saying they are a "boy" has other connotations outside of just biology and so it's the words themselves that are the issue?

OMG you used the word "reality", that's so insulting. OK... but things are what they are regardless of what you call them.

The Bishop Basher

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

I don't feel like speanding my evening defending myself against someone who thinks I may have accused them of being transphobic when they themselves are the only one to use the term.

So don’t. You should’t need to defend yourself. I asked 2 very straightforward questions which were fair enough given the statement and the context.

I took your statement as an insinuation that I was transphobic and gave you an opportunity to clarify.

You seem to have got yourself all worked up over it which says far more to me then the answer you’ve failed to provide.

ItAintMeBabe

Maxpfizer wrote: »

OMG you used the word "reality", that's so insulting. OK... but things are what they are regardless of what you call them.

That's cool and all, but you didn't answer my question, which was the important part. Is what a transgender person (child or adult) feeling/experiencing, not reality too?

ItAintMeBabe

Rennaws wrote: »

So don’t. You should’t need to defend yourself. I asked 2 very straightforward questions which were fair enough given the statement and the context.

I took your statement as an insinuation that I was transphobic and gave you an opportunity to clarify.

You seem to have got yourself all worked up over it which says far more to me then the answer you’ve failed to provide.

Is me literally saying I didn't accuse you of being transphobic not your answer? No point trying to over complicate things here, I answered you very clearly, you chose to ignore it.

ItAintMeBabe

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

So far I have actually enjoyed engaging in this thread and seeing other people's opinions, even if I don't agree with them. But I wont engage with somebody who registers a new account to post replies like this. Replies like this are why I felt the thread should be closed. Plenty of young people engage with boards.ie, imagine a young transgender person reading this.

With respect, a young transgender is likely to have experienced, heard, or read far worse things that goes on After Hours... and heaps of it coming from transgender blogs themselves. Everyone on the Internet knows there are those with extreme views or views completely opposite than their own. That's life. Get over it.

Shutting down discussion is not the way to achieve progress. IF you want non-transgender people to accept and appreciate/understand the situation of transgender people, then these kinds of discussions need to be encouraged... and that includes the remarks you don't appreciate yourself.

ItAintMeBabe

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

That's cool and all, but you didn't answer my question, which was the important part. Is what a transgender person (child or adult) feeling/experiencing, not reality too?

For an adult, yes. But for a child? Who knows. Let them wear their dresses or cowboy boots but post-puberty should be the time when a person can decide on medication etc.

The Bishop Basher

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

cis-gendered

Jesus I fluckin hate that term.

ItAintMeBabe

Deleted User wrote: »

With respect, a young transgender is likely to have experienced, heard, or read far worse things that goes on After Hours... and heaps of it coming from transgender blogs themselves. Everyone on the Internet knows there are those with extreme views or views completely opposite than their own. That's life. Get over it.

Shutting down discussion is not the way to achieve progress. IF you want non-transgender people to accept and appreciate/understand the situation of transgender people, then these kinds of discussions need to be encouraged... and that includes the remarks you don't appreciate yourself.

Fair point and point taken.

I think the point of view I am coming at it from is what I mentioned earlier, if this was a thread, with similar replies, about sexuality or ethnic minority or interrace couples, it would be closed. A person's gender, or a person's child's gender is nobody else's business or concern, that includes me.

ItAintMeBabe

Rennaws wrote: »

Jesus I fluckin hate that term.

Why?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

For an adult, yes. But for a child? Who knows. Let them wear their dresses or cowboy boots but post-puberty should be the time when a person can decide on medication etc.

I'd say wait until they're legally adults. Then they can choose for themselves.

ItAintMeBabe

Deleted User wrote: »

For an adult, yes. But for a child? Who knows. Let them wear their dresses or cowboy boots but post-puberty should be the time when a person can decide on medication etc.

What a child chooses to wear is nothing to do with being transgender.

ItAintMeBabe

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd say wait until they're legally adults. Then they can choose for themselves.

So at 15/16/17 a person shouldn't have bodily autonomy?

ItAintMeBabe

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

What a child chooses to wear is nothing to do with being transgender.

And the rest of my post about waiting until after puberty?

The Bishop Basher

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Why?

Because my gender doesn’t need a label.

I was born a man. Therefore I’m a man.

ItAintMeBabe

Deleted User wrote: »

And the rest of my post about waiting until after puberty?

Well I think I've made my feelings on that fairly clear in the rest of my posts.

ItAintMeBabe

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Well I think I've made my feelings on that fairly clear in the rest of my posts.

Then it looks like your work here is done. Thanks for the input.

o1s1n

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Why?

Less than 1% of the human population are transgender I believe?

We shouldn't need a special term for 99% of the population.

ItAintMeBabe

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

Fair point and point taken.

I think the point of view I am coming at it from is what I mentioned earlier, if this was a thread, with similar replies, about sexuality or ethnic minority or interrace couples, it would be closed.

No, it wouldn't be. There have been loads of threads about immigration, Islam, homosexuality, etc which, while controversial, haven't been closed. They're monitored, and bans handed out to posters by the mods.

A person's gender, or a person's child's gender is nobody else's business or concern, that includes me.

Except that Transgender people are generally not seeking to keep their gender private. They advertise that they're not male or female. They demand recognition that they're different, and that we must accept that they are different.

And from my POV, I find it annoying. The few adult transgenders I've encountered are physically stuck in the middle between the two genders. Their faces show both male and female physical characteristics, as do their bodies and their voices grate... like there's a mechanical voice-box in there somewhere. I'm sure they don't represent the majority of Transgender people, but they are what I've met. They look strange. they speak strange. And the act strange. So it's no wonder that I am uncomfortable around them. I don't fear them or hate them. I don't even understand them. But somehow because I am uncomfortable around them, or consider them odd in their appearance, I am Transphobic.

And the truth is that there are so few transgender people around me, that I'm highly unlikely to have any cause to know them personally. But I must become comfortable with their choices. And that will happen... how? Simply because someone decides I must? That's not how things work for most of us.

I'm not seeking to derail this thread, but I am tired of this attitude that we must simply accept other peoples choices, even when they're so incredibly different to what is normal.

Adults can mess about with their own biology. I don't care, as long as they bear the consequences/responsibility for their own choices. I do care about children being forced/encouraged into this kind of thing, because the parents won't be the ones bearing the consequences... the child will.

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

For an adult, yes. But for a child? Who knows. Let them wear their dresses or cowboy boots but post-puberty should be the time when a person can decide on medication etc.

What do you mean who knows? There are many examples of trans children.

Annasopra

Rennaws wrote: »

Because my gender doesn’t need a label.

I was born a man. Therefore I’m a man.

Cool. I'm a cis man.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What do you mean who knows? There are many examples of trans children.

It was about "reality". I don't trust a child to know the reality of their biology, especially since it's before puberty.

I sometimes wonder if people who believe that kids should be allowed choose actually spend time with kids. I taught that age group for a year and I'd barely trust one to tell me the time, nevermind diagnose themselves as being in the wrong body.

The Bishop Basher

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Cool. I'm a cis man.

Go you..

I’m just a man.

Ken.

Mod-Hey guys, some posts and replies from a rereg troll removed. Sorry if it breaks the flow. Please just try ignore them like they aren't there and report them so we can remove.

o1s1n

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Cool. I'm a cis man.

Don't you mean cis, heterosexual, able bodied man?

Annasopra

o1s1n wrote: »

Don't you mean cis, heterosexual, able bodied man?

Na

Definitely not heterosexual

ceadaoin.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What do you mean who knows? There are many examples of trans children.

Can you link to a story of a trans child that doesn't rely on gender stereotypes to show that the child is transgender? So an example of an assigned male at birth child, to use the correct terminology, which doesn't mention that they like dresses, dolls or make up so therefore must really be a girl. Or an article about a trans boy which doesn't mention being a "Tom boy" and not liking dresses or dolls.

I've never seen one. Perhaps if toys and interests for children were less "gendered" then parents could accept that their children like what they like and it doesn't mean that they are in fact somehow the opposite sex on the inside. Any studies that have been conducted show that most (as in 60%-90%) of "trans" kids turn out not to be trans in adulthood and a majority of those are homosexual. Or At least they used to in the days before they were put on the path of medical and social transition at 12 years of age or younger. Perhaps in the future this will be considered a form of conversion therapy. There are many parents, particularly religious ones, who would rather a straight daughter than a gay son and vice versa.

HappyAsLarE

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

So at 15/16/17 a person shouldn't have bodily autonomy?

Hell no. They no nothing, John Snow.

Annasopra

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Can you link to a story of a trans child that doesn't rely on gender stereotypes to show that the child is transgender? So an example of an assigned male at birth child, to use the correct terminology, which doesn't mention that they like dresses, dolls or make up so therefore must really be a girl. Or an article about a trans boy which doesn't mention being a "Tom boy" and not liking dresses or dolls.

Every story I have read the parent speaks of going beyond that and actually engagaing with the child, listening to what the child says, observing the childs behaviour before and after social transition so it seems to me you are kind of missing the point. Your focus seems to be what the child wears or plays with whereas parents of trans children and medics who deal with them go way beyond that by listening to and observing the child in multiple situtations.

fattymuatty

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

What if they don't accept that? What if they tell you they are disgusted by their bodies and it is not their own and they cannot live in it?

Where do you draw the line with this? What about a child that is disgusted by their weight, they feel like they are fat even when they are not. Their body feels repellent, what do you do in that situation? Is the solution to change the childs body until they feel better about it? Put them on a diet until they feel happy with their body again?

What if they want to be taller? They hate being the smallest in their class, time passes and they are still the smallest, they hate it, they feel they cannot live with it. Do you give them hormones to make them taller? Give them surgery to lengthen their legs?

Why is it that when a child is unhappy with their 'gender' we feel it is ok to give them blockers, hormones, surgery as standard but we don't break a short kids legs and make them taller as standard?

Considering something like 80% of kids with gender dysphoria if left alone will accept and be happy as the sex they are, jumping in with blockers which are used to treat prostate cancer in men and which studies have raised concerns about seems crazy to me.

Pero_Bueno

Malayalam wrote: »

I really feel like exploding sometimes with the push of transgenderism on children. For adults, I truly do not care what you do with your body or mind - it is your business completely. Feel free!

But the treatment of children with gender dysphoria is the main social issue of my time with which I have the greatest difficulty. The push to lay the medical ground work for the transition of very young children via puberty blockers and ''social transitioning'' is truly insidious. Sure, a lot more of it seems to be in the US / Australia but the Tavistock Institute in the UK is pushing hard there. There are large online communities welcoming in confused kids and no one is saying anything even though this is as bad as pro anorexia or pro cutting sites. A lot of these kids left alone would desist, and/or accept that they are homosexual, but they are being chaperoned by counsellors and medics to make rapid, irreversible changes. The chemicals will harm them - vascular disease, diabetes, bone density. The ironic inherent contradiction in the ridiculous ideology when extrapolated to its conclusion is that children given puberty blockers when young are presenting for gender confirmation surgery at adulthood and finding they do not have sufficient genital tissue to accommodate the operation!
There is absolutely no need for this idiotic detachment of gender from biology at the youngest age - taking girl/boy references out of childhood books, going out of one's way not to promote gender identity from infancy, youth camps and festivals for transkids, even the fetishizing of drag kids. Worse still, pushing the idea that anyone who questions or does not support the fetish is phobic. It's quite perverted, because it emphasises sexuality in children to a degree that I find has positively pedophiliac undertones. I think a lot of these parents have Munchausen's-by-proxy. There are going to be so many fcuked up young people in some years - people who should have been left alone as kids instead of shoe-horned via a hugely-expanding transgender INDUSTRY.


This is the rag to my bull this morning..... Honestly, I could punch these degenerates. NSFW https://transkids.biz/products/extra-small-silicone-packers
Leave the children alone!

Great post - and I think you are SPOT ON about the Munchausen's-by-proxy.
These are the same parents that will whine about people buying their little boy a toy car moaning that it's typical boy style toy - while trying to force their son/daughter to play with the "typical" opposite gender based toy.

And that link ??? WTF .... so fuuuccckkkked up ... anyone buying that for a ****ing KID is a f*cking sick twisted c*nt !

Sexualising children - so utterly ****ed up.

branie2

Blaming the parents

The people who do this are just jumping to their own conclusions

hatrickpatrick

I used to tell my parents I wanted to be a girl when I was a preteen, largely because at that age I perceived society's double standards against boys and felt that girls were better liked and better treated by adults. Apparently (I don't remember this) I used to say I wanted to start wearing dresses etc. Not really sure how long this phase lasted, but I'm assuming it was when I was around 6 or 7 and was very acutely affected by everything from "ladies first" and "never hit a girl even if she hits you" to "girls are better than boys at school" and all that crap. That stuff used to make me unimaginably angry as a child and I distinctly remember perceiving massive injustice based on all that. I started becoming interested in current affairs and listening to the news from a much younger age than most, so this may have been part of it.

It makes my blood run cold to think that if I expressed these sentiments as a child now, in the late 2010s, that the entire course of my life might have been shifted by hormonal medication and surgery. It's genuinely terrifying to me that we're allowing people who society has decided can't be trusted to make the decision to vote, to drink, to drive, hell to even get a tattoo in many cases, to decide to make utterly life-changing medical decisions based on what are very often fleeting and shallow childhood musings.

All I can say is that I'm seriously glad I didn't grow up in the 2010s. I'm a lad through and through and I adore being a guy, political issues aside.

It boggles my mind that anyone can defend what's going on with regard to fundamentally and permanently allowing children to make these life-altering decisions which could easily end up f*cking up their entire lives should the phase pass and they end up regretting making that choice. I know I would have.

Obviously gender dysphoria is a real and serious issue, but if we're literally blazing a trail past this as a medical issue and making such decisions based on how children feel over short periods of time, that's just utterly f*cking insane.

ceadaoin.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Every story I have read the parent speaks of going beyond that and actually engagaing with the child, listening to what the child says, observing the childs behaviour before and after social transition so it seems to me you are kind of missing the point. Your focus seems to be what the child wears or plays with whereas parents of trans children and medics who deal with them go way beyond that by listening to and observing the child in multiple situtations.

So you can't then. Maybe if kids weren't bombarded with messages, literally from birth , that girls like this and boys like that then I guarantee there would be less trans gender children. I'm not missing the point, the evidence is there - most children who say they are trans turn out not to be. What is wrong with letting them wear and express themselves how they like and waiting until they are old enough to make the choice? Putting kids on puberty blockers and hormones is madness and there are going to be a lot of messed up adults as a result. There is already a lawsuit being brought against the makers of the hormone blocker which now used to delay puberty. Women that were prescribed it as children to stop their precocious puberty are suffering long term health effects from it. It's completely unethical

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems


As far as listening to what they say, my daughter says a lot of things. Recently she has been saying that she is actually princess peach. Luckily I know that she is a child and not capable of making complex decisions that will affect her whole life so I just smile and agree with her and let her get on with it.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that children with actual gender dysphoria don't exist. They do, but its very rare and there is just no way that all the children diagnosed in recent years are suffering from it, it's an increase of thousands of percent. Unless there is something else going on medically during pregnancies (unlikely), then it must be some kind of weird trend or cultural thing.

FurBabyMomma

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I used to tell my parents I wanted to be a girl when I was a preteen, largely because at that age I perceived society's double standards against boys and felt that girls were better liked and better treated by adults. Apparently (I don't remember this) I used to say I wanted to start wearing dresses etc. Not really sure how long this phase lasted, but I'm assuming it was when I was around 6 or 7 and was very acutely affected by everything from "ladies first" and "never hit a girl even if she hits you" to "girls are better than boys at school" and all that crap. That stuff used to make me unimaginably angry as a child and I distinctly remember perceiving massive injustice based on all that. I started becoming interested in current affairs and listening to the news from a much younger age than most, so this may have been part of it.

It makes my blood run cold to think that if I expressed these sentiments as a child now, in the late 2010s, that the entire course of my life might have been shifted by hormonal medication and surgery. It's genuinely terrifying to me that we're allowing people who society has decided can't be trusted to make the decision to vote, to drink, to drive, hell to even get a tattoo in many cases, to decide to make utterly life-changing medical decisions based on what are very often fleeting and shallow childhood musing.

Funnily enough, I had the opposite experience. As a young tomboy, I wanted to be a boy as they seemed to have so much more freedom, whereas girls were to be protected and cosseted. As a teenager, I wanted to be a boy so I'd have access to a broader range of school subjects. I was sporty, but at the time there were no GAA or team sports available to girls in the locality, despite living in a city. Also, the boys' schools got half days on Wednesday, as.a.way to facilitate training, but the girls' schools didn't. Even today, if you gave me the choice, I'd still come back as a man.

That being said, I know I don't have gender dysphoria. I'm comfortable being a woman and have never loathed my body so much for its gender that I would want to change it surgically or otherwise. I've never felt I was born in the wrong body and wanted to kill myself for it. I can't imagine how difficult that is to live with and my heart goes out to anyone who feels that way. I imagine the vast majority of posters on here would be sympathetic too.

HappyAsLarE

Philosophically, gender disphoria is quite existential. Nature has selected a male and female, one’s questioning of this is quite fascinating.

We are a collection of atoms that contemplate atoms.

Omackeral

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

We are a collection of atoms that contemplate atoms.

Also, the brain named itself.

retro:electro

The fcuk

I blame twitter for all of this. :pac:

retro:electro

retro:electro wrote: »

The fcuk

holy buzzword overuse Batman ….or batwoman

Noveight

There's a family in my locality in which the Da is now a lady, or so you'd be led to believe. Anyways, one of their sons decided he too was transgender at the age of 10. Monkey see, monkey do. The auld lad has blatantly handed down his problem to his kid and it has seemingly been met by nothing but encouragement by the relevant authorities.

If that ain't some sort of abuse/neglect* then I dunno what is tbh.

*The word Abuse might be a bit strong, but you get where I'm coming from.

B.A._Baracus

The world is mad.

Signore Fancy Pants

This post has been deleted.

Wibbs

ItAintMeBabe wrote: »

I know many, many transgender people and their families. Never, ever has any of them spoken to me about science i.e. what genitalia they were born with.

God forbid objective science might come into play. Well, it seems it's OK if it currently agrees with one's personal worldview. That goes for everyone.

I really feel like this is a thread that needs to be closed. It doesn't warrant opinions in after hours.

This attitude really grinds my bloody gears. This omerta of current cultural philosophy, that can't take even a whisper of doubt against the shaky edifice it has built up around itself. God knows this has worked out well in the past. Not. And again the staggering lack of awareness of the dangers of this line of "thinking".

retro:electro wrote: »

The fcuk

Mentaller on the interwebs says mental things. Must be a day ending in a Y. The interwebs gives a voice to these morons, and a louder voice than they might otherwise have. I count myself among their number, but at least I'm aware that I'm likely a moron.

Calhoun

Its only going to get worse, with Zappone and her new LGBTI+ rollout over the next few years they are starting the indoctrination early.

Tis Yourself?

A doctor was fired in the UK because he wouldn't renounce his belief that gender is determined at birth. The absoultue state of the UK...

If an adult wants surgery, fine, but why should anyone else be forced to accept your delusions?

wexie

retro:electro wrote: »

The fcuk

twitter image

nonsense like that really doesn't help the debate. And I'd like to imagine there will be plenty of WTF's in the trans community over talk like that as well. If you want to be taken seriously then that is not the way to go.

Heteropatriarchy? I love the blind assumption that all Gay people (gay men, in this particular case) are supportive of Transgender causes. Which is, of course, complete BS. I have a variety of gay male friends who, while very interested in gay rights, do not give a flying fck about transgenders and consider them to be a completely separate issue to Homosexuality.

paleoperson

I think they may soon hit peak LGBTQ nonsense in the US in some areas as it's starting to decline and they're going back to traditional values. Such crazy ideas as males being different to females or a mother and father being a more balanced upbringing than a father and a father - and hell, yet another father with the way things have been going, are now being taken seriously again.

Ireland are in such a love affair with LGBTQ nonsense right now that unless they're among an older traditional crowd a lot of people wouldn't dare to question the dogma. The ironic thing is that the US was ahead of the curve for LGBTQ rights for a long time while Ireland and UK were far behind. Now many in Ireland think they're so ahead of the curve, almost trying to outcompete each other for who has the wildest, most extreme LGBTQ theories that we all have to follow... when actually the US is yet again ahead of Ireland about it by questioning the dogma.

Omackeral

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a variety of gay male friends who, while very interested in gay rights, do not give a flying fck about transgenders and consider them to be a completely separate issue to Homosexuality.

The T doesn't really fit in with the LGB. It's not a sexual orientation. I wonder is LGB vs T a trend? Is there a divide?

paleoperson

Omackeral wrote: »

The T doesn't really fit in with the LGB. It's not a sexual orientation. I wonder is LGB vs T a trend? Is there a divide?