Peak Trans

wexie

Deleted User wrote: »

You're missing the point. It seemed an obvious point. But ok, I won't pursue it.

No I'm not missing the point. (I think)

If people want to decide or feel (not sure if it's considered a decision anymore) that they would be happier living their lives as a different gender then they are born into than what business is that of mine? As long as they don't harm anyone in the process.

I see your point with regards to the whole 'you must accept us without asking any further questions' but from what I can tell that's a minority.

Of course there are lots of practical issues to be sorted out, that GRA mentioned above sounds like a really freakin terrible idea (or at least the way it's explained, I don't know how close that is to how it's actually going to be implemented).

My main issue in all of this is with trans children as explained many times on this thread and with the fact that there's such a movement to have discussions like these shut down. If you want to be accepted not only for who but for what you are, by people who perhaps don't understand that 'what' then being combative and angry isn't going to help your case much.

I'm also not overly delighted with the whole labeling nonsense. If I think a person is an asshole I will have based that judgement on who they are not on what they are. So labeling me as transphobic because I happen to think a single trans person is an asshole is just a load of bollox as far as I'm concerned.

Creative83

bodice ripper wrote: »

Give over, the thread largely consists of straight people asserting that gender is immutable and determined by chromosomes.

What I mean is that many posters are walking a PC tightrope. They are afraid to say what they really think. It's so obvious and cringe worthy to read. Just say what you really think!

Malayalam

Creative83 wrote: »

What I mean is that many posters are walking a PC tightrope. They are afraid to say what they really think. It's so obvious and cringe worthy to read. Just say what you really think!

Maybe people are exploring tentatively too? I don't feel like saying transpeople are this or that (insert bad thing) because I don't feel that way about them. I am sure they suffer and feel joy just like me. I know plenty of people who live very differently, and I decide about them as individuals. I even spent a week or so once living entirely in the company of sadhus who eat cremated human remains, and I didn't freak out about them, they were doing no one any harm. It's just my concerns about ideology seeping into science, social policy and child welfare.

wexie

Malayalam wrote: »

Yes, I think we accept them. Klingons, otherkin, whatever.

Ah now....I don't know about you but I do definitely draw the line at human/non human.

You want to identify as an elf or a dragon....well then that's fine with me but don't expect me to respect it.

ohnonotgmail

Creative83 wrote: »

What I mean is that many posters are walking a PC tightrope. They are afraid to say what they really think. It's so obvious and cringe worthy to read. Just say what you really think!

the op describes trangenderism as a fetish and likens transgender kids as akin to paedophilia. If thats what people are saying when they are walking a PC tightrope i'm not sure i want to hear what they really think.

Cienciano

Is this the latest thing people are afraid of? I haven't heard of any of this in real life, it's always people on message boards worried about it.

Tis Yourself?

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, lesbians are now being told that they are hateful bigots and subjected to vile abuse online if they don't want to have a sexual relationship with a person that has a penis. .

Absolute and utter rubbish - Nobody is saying lesbians must have sexual relationships with a person with a penis.

'Person with a penis?' Oh you mean a man? Gotcha.

Tis Yourself?

ceadaoin. wrote: »

wexie wrote: »

I presume you're not talking about the Garda Representative Association?

Gender recoginition act. It will basically erase any sex based protections and exclusions that are currently in place and allows for "self ID" rather than needing a diagnosis by a medical professional to change passport etc. So any person only has to say they are trans to be allowed access to women's shelters, women's prisons, wards, changing rooms etc. No proof or even effort to change their appearance is needed. Obviously this has the potential to cause some problems when it comes to places where vulnerable women might be housed, such as domestic violence shelters, psychiatric facilities and prisons. Discussion of these potential problems is not allowed.

In the UK there are rapists serving time in women's prison. So progressive.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Cienciano wrote: »

Is this the latest thing people are afraid of? I haven't heard of any of this in real life, it's always people on message boards worried about it.

The real life implications will come soon enough.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Malayalam wrote: »

Either there has been some huge disruptor to the endocrine systems of developing children - in utero or early childhood, or there is some huge environmental disruptor, either physical as in chemical or the change is via culture. In the case of the first two possibilities we should seriously investigate possible causes. It is quite possible that there has been some biological disruptor - after all autism rates have soared for reasons that are not yet settled. As an adjunct there is some indication of concomitance between autism and gender dysphoria. In fact there is significant psychiatric comorbidity with childhood gender dysphoria and quite a number of conditions - these factors all need to be looked at, rather than rushing to affirm a child's discomfort with radical treatment that has lifelong affects.

In the case of the third possible reason for increase - enculturation - we should also seriously examine the roots of what is a very disruptive outcome to children regardless of how they are treated for dysphoria. The influence of media such as television programs that are narcisstic and sexualised at a very young age cannot be discounted. Social forums that welcome in alienated children are also indicated. There is an early sexualising element at play in my opinion, whether from media or adult influence - I am struck by the erotic undertones in the photographs of transkids or their sexualised movements in videos [...]

Excellent and lucid post.

An_Toirpin

Cienciano wrote: »

Is this the latest thing people are afraid of? I haven't heard of any of this in real life, it's always people on message boards worried about it.

It is having all sorts odd and worrying consequences, especially when untransition trans can complete in sports as women.

https://anthrofeminist.blog/2017/04/14/the-andraya-yearwood-debacle-the-continued-assault-on-womens-sports/

FTA69

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Absolute and utter rubbish - Nobody is saying lesbians must have sexual relationships with a person with a penis.

There are a minority of transactivists who are labelling lesbians transphobic for not considering a relationship with a transwoman, because after all, the latter are indisputably women in their eyes.

Far more seriously in the UK is the growing trend of a small minority of transactivists who are assaulting women at political events and physically blocking and intimidating labour movement meetings to discuss legislation pertaining to women. It has gone completely bonkers.

Malayalam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the op describes trangenderism as a fetish and likens transgender kids as akin to paedophilia. If thats what people are saying when they are walking a PC tightrope i'm not sure i want to hear what they really think.

I think I have presented a far more nuanced opinion than you casually suggest, and that the sexualisation element has formed a small part of my concerns. I stand by that concern. Drag kids, prosthesis for toddlers, the uber amplification of gender stereotypes I see in documentation of genderless kids camps - observations such as these do give me pause for thought. The sexualisation of ANY children in ANY context disturbs me.

I have not described transgenderism as a fetish - that is deliberate misconstruing. The paedohiliac element I refered to in relation to the sale online of genital mimics for children. What would be the limit there? Snap on vulvas for 3 year old boys? Strap on adolescent breasts for 10 year olds? Sex toys for pubescents?

But you are entitled to your opinion so I accept it and will think about it. Perhaps I'm too cross about the transkids industry to be reasonable.

ohnonotgmail

Malayalam wrote: »

I think I have presented a far more nuanced opinion than you casually suggest, and that the sexualisation element has formed a small part of my concerns. I stand by that concern. Drag kids, prosthesis for toddlers, the uber amplification of gender stereotypes I see in documentation of genderless kids camps - observations such as these do give me pause for thought. The sexualisation of ANY children in ANY context disturbs me.

I have not described transgenderism as a fetish - that is deliberate misconstruing. The paedohiliac element I refered to in relation to the sale online of genital mimics for children. What would be the limit there? Snap on vulvas for 3 year old boys? Strap on adolescent breasts for 10 year olds? Sex toys for pubescents?

But you are entitled to your opinion so I accept it and will think about it. Perhaps I'm too cross about the transkids industry to be reasonable.

Yes you did.

There is absolutely no need for this idiotic detachment of gender from biology at the youngest age - taking girl/boy references out of childhood books, going out of one's way not to promote gender identity from infancy, youth camps and festivals for transkids, even the fetishizing of drag kids. Worse still, pushing the idea that anyone who questions or does not support the fetish is phobic.

WinnyThePoo

Nuanced lol. These people.

ceadaoin.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Absolute and utter rubbish - Nobody is saying lesbians must have sexual relationships with a person with a penis.

I've just re read this and noticed your choice of words. What I actually said was that lesbians are being labelled transphobic bigots and subjected to horrible online abuse by some transactivists if they don't want to have sex with a person in possession of a penis. This absolutely is happening and isn't utter rubbish. Now, I guess technically noone is saying that they *must* have sexual relationships with a person with a penis, they just better be prepared for the abuse if they speak publicly about their preferences. How is that not a form of coercion or any different to what an incel would do?

padd b1975

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Absolute and utter rubbish - Nobody is saying lesbians must have sexual relationships with a person with a penis.

That's why strap-ons were invented.

Malayalam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Yes you did.

Hallo?? That i said the ''fetishization of drag kids'', you mean? Yes, that is happening.

Wibbs

An_Toirpin wrote: »

It is having all sorts odd and worrying consequences, especially when untransition trans can complete in sports as women.

https://anthrofeminist.blog/2017/04/14/the-andraya-yearwood-debacle-the-continued-assault-on-womens-sports/

That's beyond daft and why more folks in women's sports aren't raising holy hell over it. Well I know why, they're naturally afraid of the backlash from a tiny, but extremely vocal and occasionally nasty minority of "progressive" activists. It's not just with the Trans debate either.

When you see trans runners and weightlifters destroying competitors in women's sports it really beggars belief that they're allowed to compete. The various governing body's criteria that they pass certain hormonal profiles for a period of a year or so just doesn't cut it. Not when someone has gone through the bulk of puberty as male and the obvious sporting advantages that brings. I'm sure Usain Bolt could be dosed up with hormone blockers for a year and pass said tests, but it would be beyond farcical to then let him compete in women's competition. And the same governing bodies lose their heads over drug doping? It's insane.

When we saw the Jenner person ending up winning "Woman of the Year", splattered across magazine covers like some catholic saint of progressive martyrdom, that's when I first thought we need to get off this crazy train and quickly. Placcy mickeys for little kids barely raised my eyebrow.

Dyr

FTA69 wrote: »

There are a minority of transactivists who are labelling lesbians transphobic for not considering a relationship with a transwoman, because after all, the latter are indisputably women in their eyes.

Far more seriously in the UK is the growing trend of a small minority of transactivists who are assaulting women at political events and physically blocking and intimidating labour movement meetings to discuss legislation pertaining to women. It has gone completely bonkers.

It hasn't gone bonkers this end of the liberal spectrum has always been bonkers, the virtue signaling contingent in Labour are going to find out why you don't get into bed with crazy.

wexie

Malayalam wrote: »

Hallo?? That i said the ''fetishization of drag kids'', you mean? Yes, that is happening.

I could have done without seeing that....

thanks

Wibbs

wexie wrote: »

I could have done without seeing that....

thanks

It's not just "drag" kids, there is a weird, nay disturbing thankfully small sub section of society that fetishises kids in general, though far more so little girls and dolls them up like adults. "Beauty pageants" for toddlers and the like.

Maxpfizer

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Absolute and utter rubbish - Nobody is saying lesbians must have sexual relationships with a person with a penis.

That's true but I've heard the argument made a few times now that lesbians who say they would never date, or have sex with, a woman with a penis are being discriminatory and transphobic.

I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of that debate.

Your Dating Preferences Are Discriminatory

Are Genital Preferences Transphobic?"

"Cissexism means prejudice or discrimination against transgender people"

"Some people are making the argument that it's not cissexist at all to only be attracted to people with one kind of genitals"

"These people might argue that only being attracted to people with vaginas in no way negatively affects trans people"

"Technically you are right, you're allowed to have your preferences and you don't have to change anything BUT..."

So, yes, nobody is saying lesbians MUST have sex with a person with a penis but if a lesbian happens to say she won't have sex with a woman with a penis then she can expect to be accused of discrimination or transphobia.

Transphobia ---> TERF ---> Alt-Right ---> Nazi

You can say what you like but there's a subtle pressure there and if you are a lesbian then you'd better be damn careful if you are in a situation where you are attracted to a woman but ultimately don't want to have sex with them when you find out they have a penis.

You are pretending to scoff at the idea but it's definitely out there and I have serious doubts that you don't already know that it's out there.

The are two factors at work here.

Firstly, that an accusation of transphobia is becoming more and more of a serious accusation. A losing your job kind of accusation an internet hate mob hounding you for months kind of accusation.

Secondly, that having a preference for one kind of person over another will lead to an accusation of transphobia if said preference is discovered or assumed. This leads to people realizing that their life could really take a nasty turn if anyone finds out that they won't be with a woman with a penis purely because of the penis.

So what can a woman who is a lesbian but never wants to have sex with someone with a penis really do or say without being accused of transphobia? Nothing really, so they just have to shut up and hope for the best.

Cienciano

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The real life implications will come soon enough.

Reminds me a bit of rock music and Satanism. My dad the other day said something about foreigners followed by "but of course, you can't say that or you'll be called racist". I asked if he was ever called racist? No he wasn't. I think both "sides" of debates get a bit hysterical tbh.

Sal Butamol

The Miss Universe representative for Spain this year is trans.

What a ****ing joke.

Malayalam

Just to say .. ... rather than go the whole nine trans yards, the thread would more likely stay open if it sticks to children's gender issues. The rest of the stuff like sports and Miss Universe Spain and Huntley trying to get into Women's jail - of course all of that is the mind-bending manifestations of the inherent contradictions in an ideology - but I am sure it has been discussed elsewhere.

On the sports issue I have heard that transgirls in school sports could put off young girls from participating - due to fear of injury (eg martial arts). And this would have knock on effects on health and fitness. My daughter is a brilliant martial artist and TINY and it has been enough for her to deal since childhood with the very big tough girls she has met in competitions, a transgirl with the benefit of male characteristics would be impossible to beat and probably a danger.

One eyed Jack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Absolute and utter rubbish - Nobody is saying lesbians must have sexual relationships with a person with a penis.

Now Joey that's not true, there is a concerted effort by a tiny minority of people within the transgender community who claim that lesbian women who refuse to have sex with them are transphobic, etc, trying to shame women into having sex with them and attempting to condemn them for their sexual orientation -


The Cotton Ceiling – lesbian women must consider trans women as potential sexual partners


I'd have agreed with you if you'd said that there is nobody saying that legally, lesbian women are being forced to have sex with a person with a penis, and there has been a case in the UK where a woman who pretended they had a penis by using dildo was convicted of assault by penetration for attempting to do so.

As for the kid-size dildos being advertised on that website being referred to in the opening post, well there are some sick fcuks out there who will attempt to take advantage of vulnerable people by marketing this kind of JML quality crap to them and sell it like they're doing something "positive" for children who are transgender. Most parents of children who are transgender will see this product for what it is - a pernicious marketing ploy used to sell a product and make money for it's creators. It's about as likely to take off as vagina chapstick/lipstick/wtf? for women.

Far more dangerous than these kid-sized dildos are chest binders for teenagers which can do real irreparable damage to their bodies -


Health Consequences of chest binding

WinnyThePoo

Sal Butamol wrote: »

The Miss Universe representative for Spain this year is trans.

What a ****ing joke.

Will you need more tissue?

Wibbs

Maxpfizer wrote: »

Your Dating Preferences Are Discriminatory

Damn right they are. Everybody's are to one degree or other. I'm a straight guy and I don't want to see meat and two veg in the underwear. If I were a gay guy I wouldn't want to see the lack of same. Would a trans person be "discriminatory" if they didn't want to be involved with the wedding tackle of the gender they didn't find attractive? Of course not. It's beyond bloody lunacy.

Are Genital Preferences Transphobic?"

I don't want to shag "cis" men, male by DNA and birth. Does this make me non-trans"phobic"? Bollocks it does. I don't give a hoot who you find attractive, so long as you're consenting adults. Including if you're into a trans person. Knock yourself out and good luck to you. It would be nice if idiots like this extended that same courtesy to others. But again self awareness and irony bypasses are in play.

wexie

Maxpfizer wrote: »

The are two factors at work here.

Firstly, that an accusation of transphobia is becoming more and more of a serious accusation. A losing your job kind of accusation an internet hate mob hounding you for months kind of accusation.

Secondly, that having a preference for one kind of person over another will lead to an accusation of transphobia if said preference is discovered or assumed. This leads to people realizing that their life could really take a nasty turn if anyone finds out that they won't be with a woman with a penis purely because of the penis.

So what can a woman who is a lesbian but never wants to have sex with someone with a penis really do or say without being accused of transphobia? Nothing really, so they just have to shut up and hope for the best.

I'd be quite curious to know how much support this kind of thinking really does have in the 'trans community'. Is this the norm or are these just extremist views?

Wibbs

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Will you need more tissue?

Not for self abuse anyway.

Hector Savage

retro:electro wrote: »

The fcuk

It has to be a parody ... HAS to be ...

Frank O. Pinion

"Preference" is a weird thing. Some women say they're not attracted to bi men, it's not their "preference". I find that weird. I mean, if you find Brad Pitt attractive, but if he's bi or previously been with men he's suddenly unattractive? Seems homophobic. You find a lot less men saying that bi women are unattractive to them than the other way around.

Hector Savage

Sal Butamol wrote: »

The Miss Universe representative for Spain this year is trans.

What a ****ing joke.

Yeah and watch the viewing figures plummet ...

The Public know what a joke this is , I wonder how well that Playboy with a trans model on the cover sold ?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Wibbs wrote: »

I don't want to shag "cis" men, male by DNA and birth. Does this make me non-trans"phobic"? Bollocks it does. I don't give a hoot who you find attractive, so long as you're consenting adults. Including if you're into a trans person. Knock yourself out and good luck to you. It would be nice if idiots like this extended that same courtesy to others. But again self awareness and irony bypasses are in play.

Just plain homophobia.

Maxpfizer

wexie wrote: »

I'd be quite curious to know how much support this kind of thinking really does have in the 'trans community'. Is this the norm or are these just extremist views?

As far as I can tell it's fairly common. A lot of trans people have troubles with dating because of this particular issue.

I can imagine that a lesbian woman could potentially react badly to finding out or being told that the person they are dating actually has a penis. Depending on the circumstances of that situation it could potentially be a very bad reaction.

This would be even more pronounced with "political" lesbians, I think.

I don't think it's extremism to point out that people have preferences and that sometimes those preferences are a kind of discrimination but the extremist part of it is where there are efforts to tie these preferences to transphobia and everything that then follows on from that.

For sure this is a community that is rife with internal bullying and people will often take sides and then take things to quite extreme levels. Being part of the community and then being labelled "transphobic" from within the community would not be a good thing.

There seems to be quite a lot of tension between lesbians in the community and trans-women in the community.

Hector Savage

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Just plain homophobia.

Really?
How so?

Wibbs

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Just plain homophobia.

So by that "logic" a gay woman who doesn't want to sleep with a man is heterophobic?

Wibbs

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

"Preference" is a weird thing. Some women say they're not attracted to bi men, it's not their "preference". I find that weird. I mean, if you find Brad Pitt attractive, but if he's bi or previously been with men he's suddenly unattractive? Seems homophobic. You find a lot less men saying that bi women are unattractive to them than the other way around.

More down to the notion that a bi guy is seen as somehow more "feminine" because he shagged men and this is less attractive to more women, whereas a bi woman's femininity isn't nearly so affected. Plus the "lesbian" fantasy meme nearly always featuring hyper feminine women is in play.

Doctor Jimbob

Wibbs wrote: »

So by that "logic" a gay woman who doesn't want to sleep with a man is heterophobic?

Well that's different, obviously, because reasons. Very important reasons.

Wibbs

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Well that's different, obviously, because bollocks. Very important bollocks.

With respect Dr. J I tweaked your post a little.

suicide_circus

Hector Savage wrote: »

Really?
How so?

Any man who won't suck a dick is a bigot

Franz Von Peppercorn

Wibbs wrote: »

So by that "logic" a gay woman who doesn't want to sleep with a man is heterophobic?

Indeed.

I should probably have put a sarcasm indicator on my reply though.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Indeed.

I should probably have put a sarcasm indicator on my reply though.

Poe's Law strikes again.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Poe's Law strikes again.

True, though I've seen similar opinions that were in deadly earnest. And as we saw in the last few pages there are a few nutters out there who think that gay women who don't want to sleep with male to female transexuals with wedding tackle intact are transphobic.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

True, though I've seen similar opinions that were in deadly earnest.

If you're a minority and feel hard done by, some idiots will be there to support you no matter what, as ridiculous as it might be. They're like the conspiracy theorists of social equality.. Always thinking they have the inside line on what is morally correct.

_Kaiser_

OK, I have to admit.. this continued back and forth with people continuing to dispute reality is starting to grate on me, so I'm going to be very blunt.

Basically it comes down to...

(Biological) Reality/Facts vs Feelings/Opinions

While it may not fit with the worldview of some, the former will ALWAYS trump the latter.

Someone can certainly identify as the opposite sex, take steps to reinforce that (clothing, name, surgery) - for the purposes of example and simplicity here let's say a man identifying as a woman.
All that is fine, but it does NOT make them "no different" to a biological woman, not does it make anyone else "phobic" if they don't want to become involved in a (sexual) relationship with them nor if they don't recognise those choices (so long as they are still respectful).
I'm a straight man (and none of this "cis" nonsense either). I am interested only in straight women. I would not get involved with someone like the person in my example. That's my choice and my right just as much as it's their choice and right to identify otherwise.

On another point... Infants are not "assigned" a gender at birth.. they are simply born male or female/boy or girl. There are only those 2 options. This is again the Reality of the situation.

I'm getting very tired of revisionist bull**** being peddled as facts in our "modern" society, and seeing people who say "er.. hang on a minute!" be attacked and belittled as archaic, phobic or whatever the latest buzz-term is by people who's primary interest is to virtue-signal how progressive they are to these loons.

Enough is enough... believe/do whatever you want so long as it's legal, you're an adult, and no-one else is harmed (I personally don'r care what someone thinks of themselves or does sexually at all) - but accept that "tolerance" and "acceptance" is a 2-way street and it's equally MY right NOT to buy into this stuff!

WinnyThePoo

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, I have to admit.. this continued back and forth with people continuing to dispute reality is starting to grate on me, so I'm going to be very blunt.

Basically it comes down to...

(Biological) Reality/Facts vs Feelings/Opinions

While it may not fit with the worldview of some, the former will ALWAYS trump the latter.

Someone can certainly identify as the opposite sex, take steps to reinforce that (clothing, name, surgery) - for the purposes of example and simplicity here let's say a man identifying as a woman.All that is fine, but it does NOT make them "no different" to a biological woman, not does it make anyone else "phobic" if they don't want to become involved in a (sexual) relationship with them nor if they don't recognise those choices (so long as they are still respectful).
I'm a straight man (and none of this "cis" nonsense either). I am interested only in straight women. I would not get involved with someone like the person in my example. That's my choice and my right just as much as it's their choice and right to identify otherwise.

On another point... Infants are not "assigned" a gender at birth.. they are simply born male or female/boy or girl. There are only those 2 options. This is again the Reality of the situation.

I'm getting very tired of revisionist bull**** being peddled as facts in our "modern" society, and seeing people who say "er.. hang on a minute!" be attacked and belittled as archaic, phobic or whatever the latest buzz-term is by people who's primary interest is to virtue-signal how progressive they are to these loons.

Enough is enough... believe/do whatever you want so long as it's legal, you're an adult, and no-one else is harmed (I personally don'r care what someone thinks of themselves or does sexually at all) - but accept that "tolerance" and "acceptance" is a 2-way street and it's equally MY right NOT to buy into this stuff!

I'm sorry your getting older and world is changing at a pace you find uncomfortable. This is very much a feelings rant though. You are talking about real human beings here.

Calhoun

You wonder what the end game is here, it seems like a small minority trying to change and influence everyone around them so they become a bigger part of the pie.

I wonder what will happen when we are done with all the BS will we see a hard move to the otherside on these issues.

_Kaiser_

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I'm sorry your getting older and world is changing at a pace you find uncomfortable. This is very much a feelings rant though. You are talking about real human beings here.

Real human beings certainly, but again their feelings/view on the world does not trump DNA/science/biology. That's the reality and facts. Pretending otherwise is actually MORE harmful to them.

Has nothing at all to do with me getting older.. I just don't believe the Earth is flat, or the Emperor is wearing clothes!