Creche in Estate using communal area as play area

thomas 123

Hi All

Im here today seeking some advice.

I live in a townhouse in a estate.

At the entrance to the estate there is a Creche.

Twice a day the creche brings 10-20 children supervised by 2-3 adults outside my house for hours on end.

Don't get me wrong, kids will be kids. I have gotten over this fact and I think if its some kids from the estate playing its okay.

However this regimented, organized chaos that goes on every day is getting to be a bit much.

Im working from home also - so my window has to be closed during any meetings or calls I have to make.

Surly the creche is not entitled to use a communal area like this? If so should all residents get a share of the profits?

Its not even the closest large grassy area near them - its the most hidden.

Thank you in advance, and Rabble,Rabble,Rabble.

GingerLily

Have you talked to the crèche and explained to them that you work from home?

thomas 123

GingerLily wrote: »

Have you talked to the crèche and explained to them that you work from home?

I have not.

To be honest im a little afraid to. However I have emailed the management company(Nicely, as of course its not their fault) to ask if a complaint to them(creche) would be warranted.

seamus

Really it's a matter of whether the management company oppose the creche's use of the communal space.

Any resident of the complex is entitled to use the communal space without requiring express permission of the management company, and while the creche may be a business, it is also a resident.

Ultimately if you can close your windows to minimise the noise issue, then I don't think you have much scope to complain. They're entitled to carry on their business, just as you are.

I expect you won't have much joy from the management company. At best a polite letter to the creche might allow you to come to some form of understanding; such as the kids being brought outside when you have your lunch or something.

beechwood55

Are they keeping within ratio of staff to children when they bring the children outside?
Is the area secure? Could a child wander off and not be noticed?
Are there natural hazards in the area that may be a risk to children - especially water?
Is the area accessible to other people?
Is the creche insured to bring children out to this area?

These are questions I would want an answer to if my child was attending that creche.

thomas 123

beechwood55 wrote: »

Are they keeping within ratio of staff to children when they bring the children outside?
Is the area secure? Could a child wander off and not be noticed?
Are there natural hazards in the area that may be a risk to children - especially water?
Is the area accessible to other people?
Is the creche insured to bring children out to this area?

These are questions I would want an answer to if my child was attending that creche.

Its actually just been resolved for this reason.

Got a lovely reply from the letting company - who are always great.

"Its Major risk to our insurance & probably theirs - I will contact the creche right away"

beechwood55

thomas 123 wrote: »

Its actually just been resolved for this reason.

Got a lovely reply from the letting company - who are always great.

"Its Major risk to our insurance & probably theirs - I will contact the creche right away"

Excellent!

jlm29

Oh great. I was just about to suggest some naked sunbathing in the communal area. Glad you won’t need to get your bits out

thomas 123

seamus wrote: »

Really it's a matter of whether the management company oppose the creche's use of the communal space.

Any resident of the complex is entitled to use the communal space without requiring express permission of the management company, and while the creche may be a business, it is also a resident.

Ultimately if you can close your windows to minimise the noise issue, then I don't think you have much scope to complain. They're entitled to carry on their business, just as you are.

I expect you won't have much joy from the management company. At best a polite letter to the creche might allow you to come to some form of understanding; such as the kids being brought outside when you have your lunch or something.

I really disagree with this - even though it has been resolved now.

For them to get planning permission for a creche surly they would have to have outdoor space availible to them.

And in regards to my windows - would I be allowed stand outside their windows and scream and shout in them? -Then say meh, you can close your windows, im just running a business in our lawn.

In my mind Communal is communal - not for running a business & making a profit at the expense of me.

regardless of my outcome I think its a super interesting subject and cannot wait to build my house and wall and gate :P

sillysmiles

Is it not better that kids are outside and green spaces are used?

If you worked in an office in the city center you would need to deal with city center noise or close your window. If it was just a gang of kids on the green what would you do?

ted1

thomas 123 wrote: »

GingerLily wrote: »

Have you talked to the crèche and explained to them that you work from home?

I have not.

To be honest im a little afraid to. However I have emailed the management company(Nicely, as of course its not their fault) to ask if a complaint to them(creche) would be warranted.

If it comes down to it they are using a communal area. You are using a building listed as residential as an office. They would win

thomas 123

sillysmiles wrote: »

Is it not better that kids are outside and green spaces are used?

If you worked in an office in the city center you would need to deal with city center noise or close your window. If it was just a gang of kids on the green what would you do?

Ah but you see im not in a city center.

Im in an expensive private complex where I pay someone lots of money who pays someone else lots of money so I can live here.

But to respond to your point "If" that was the case; I would not mind if its the kids who live here playing there as I stated above. They play there all the time(and they can be as loud.) A business profiting off my loss is a totally different story.

ted1

thomas 123 wrote: »

beechwood55 wrote: »

Are they keeping within ratio of staff to children when they bring the children outside?
Is the area secure? Could a child wander off and not be noticed?
Are there natural hazards in the area that may be a risk to children - especially water?
Is the area accessible to other people?
Is the creche insured to bring children out to this area?

These are questions I would want an answer to if my child was attending that creche.

Its actually just been resolved for this reason.

Got a lovely reply from the letting company - who are always great.

"Its Major risk to our insurance & probably theirs - I will contact the creche right away"

Doesn’t mean it’s being resolved. Crèche owner just shows them their insurance policy which covers outside play.
Generally people who use insurance as an excuse don’t know anything about it

listermint

Kids back in doors.

Well done OP. Enjoy your home office.... .

thomas 123

listermint wrote: »

Kids back in doors.

Well done OP. Enjoy your home office.... .

Thanks.

Did you not see my sentence about it not being the closest green area too them?

To add they of course also have their own play area to the rear of the creche.

Did I ask them to build it there also?

hotshots85

And we wonder why there is health problems with kids, this country is going backwards. Kids play, kids are noisy, these ones are lucky enough to have a nice green area to play in but nope, lets solve it with a passive aggressive email to a 3rd party. This is the stuff that stops kids being able to run around in school for "health and safety".

If you ask me you should be happy the kids are having fun and playing and do nothing else.

CeilingFly

As a previous director of an OMC, the insurance aspect was the first thing that came to mind.

Its open space, not a playground and as the management company realised very quickly, they'd be responsible for any injury that happens caused by them allowing such use.

Similarly the creche would have serious insurance issues allow the children play in an open space like that.

So, you are doing both the creche and the management company a favour by highlighting it. - And get peace and quiet as a bonus

ted1

CeilingFly wrote: »

As a previous director of an OMC, the insurance aspect was the first thing that came to mind.

Its open space, not a playground and as the management company realised very quickly, they'd be responsible for any injury that happens caused by them allowing such use.

Similarly the creche would have serious insurance issues allow the children play in an open space like that.

So, you are doing both the creche and the management company a favour by highlighting it. - And get peace and quiet as a bonus

Rubbish.
The Insurance policy would cover them. Sane as schools do when they take them to parks, beaches etc

Pkiernan

hotshots85 wrote: »

And we wonder why there is health problems with kids, this country is going backwards. Kids play, kids are noisy, these ones are lucky enough to have a nice green area to play in but nope, lets solve it with a passive aggressive email to a 3rd party. This is the stuff that stops kids being able to run around in school for "health and safety".

If you ask me you should be happy the kids are having fun and playing and do nothing else.

You would probably feel very different if they were outside your window.

thomas 123

ted1 wrote: »

Doesn’t mean it’s being resolved. Crèche owner just shows them their insurance policy which covers outside play.
Generally people who use insurance as an excuse don’t know anything about it

I hope this transpires not to be the case. The email was quite a lot more specific but with anonymity in mind I cut it down to that.

Id also hope that given this is a private estate not many insurance providers would cover a business to let kids play on private lands not owned/maintained/controlled by them.

Of course it could be the whole communal issue - but is a business entitled to use communal areas for business?

seamus

thomas 123 wrote: »

I really disagree with this - even though it has been resolved now.

For them to get planning permission for a creche surly they would have to have outdoor space availible to them.

To be fair, I'm operating on the assumption that the creche themselves are operating inside the law and whatever other regulations are required. Obviously if the creche is doing something that's not permitted, then that's not cool, and I agree they should be called on it.

And in regards to my windows - would I be allowed stand outside their windows and scream and shout in them? -Then say meh, you can close your windows, im just running a business in our lawn.

That's not really the same thing. Assuming the creche have permission from the management company to use the communal area, then they're entitled to do so. Disturbance to other residents is a matter for the management company. If you could get permission from the management company to stand outside their windows yelling in, then knock yourself out.

In fact, part of the planning requirement for the complex may have been the provision of a creche, therefore to not allow the creche to use the outside facilities could itself be a breach of the planning law if it forced the creche to close.

In my mind Communal is communal - not for running a business & making a profit at the expense of me.

Whether someone is running a business is irrelevant once they have management company approval. That's the "communal" bit - it's under the domain of the management company.
A creche occupies a niche space where it's an essential community business, so you'll find the management company (i.e. resident parents) far more sympathetic to them than to some guy trying to run a car repair business from the car park.

ted1

thomas 123 wrote: »

listermint wrote: »

Kids back in doors.

Well done OP. Enjoy your home office.... .

Thanks.

Did you not see my sentence about it not being the closest green area too them?

To add they of course also have their own play area to the rear of the creche.

Did I ask them to build it there also?

Be gas now if you got a bill for commercial rates and a planning enforcement slapped on you for running a office from a private residence

thomas 123

Pkiernan wrote: »

You would probably feel very different if they were outside your window.

To add to this I mean literally outside my window. actually 6 of my windows as its a townhouse. on two sides.

thomas 123

ted1 wrote: »

Be gas now if you got a bill for commercial rates and a planning enforcement slapped on you for running a office from a private residence

I work for a company not for myself. Totally legal and above board my friend.

listermint

Pkiernan wrote: »

You would probably feel very different if they were outside your window.

I wouldnt buy a town house in any estate anywhere in the country and work from home during the day expecting peace and quiet.


tbh thats just plain stupid. its the hottest summer ireland has had in years and kids will be outside.

If you want peace and quiet rent a space in an office. That is more appropriate. Or buy a house in the country.

Clueless stuff altogether.

ted1

thomas 123 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Doesn’t mean it’s being resolved. Crèche owner just shows them their insurance policy which covers outside play.
Generally people who use insurance as an excuse don’t know anything about it

I hope this transpires not to be the case. The email was quite a lot more specific but with anonymity in mind I cut it down to that.

Id also hope that given this is a private estate not many insurance providers would cover a business to let kids play on private lands not owned/maintained/controlled by them.

Of course it could be the whole communal issue - but is a business entitled to use communal areas for business?

When the business is paying rent, then yes it’s part of the communal space.

thomas 123

seamus wrote: »

To be fair, I'm operating on the assumption that the creche themselves are operating inside the law and whatever other regulations are required. Obviously if the creche is doing something that's not permitted, then that's not cool, and I agree they should be called on it.

That's not really the same thing. Assuming the creche have permission from the management company to use the communal area, then they're entitled to do so. Disturbance to other residents is a matter for the management company. If you could get permission from the management company to stand outside their windows yelling in, then knock yourself out.

In fact, part of the planning requirement for the complex may have been the provision of a creche, therefore to not allow the creche to use the outside facilities could itself be a breach of the planning law if it forced the creche to close.
Whether someone is running a business is irrelevant once they have management company approval. That's the "communal" bit - it's under the domain of the management company.
A creche occupies a niche space where it's an essential community business, so you'll find the management company (i.e. resident parents) far more sympathetic to them than to some guy trying to run a car repair business from the car park.

Ya, I cannot argue with any of that.

Given the management companies response im taking(Praying) it they do not have their blessing.

F34

hotshots85 wrote: »

This is the stuff that stops kids being able to run around in school for "health and safety".

No it’s not. Little Timmy’s parents making a claim and causing insurance premiums to spiral when little Timmy falls over while running around is why schools have had to stop kids running. Blame the parents of Timmy before blaming “health and safety”

thomas 123

ted1 wrote: »

When the business is paying rent, then yes it’s part of the communal space.

Does that mean a Woddies can set up its garden center in a carpark in a retail park?

thomas 123

listermint wrote: »

I wouldnt buy a town house in any estate anywhere in the country and work from home during the day expecting peace and quiet.


tbh thats just plain stupid. its the hottest summer ireland has had in years and kids will be outside.

If you want peace and quiet rent a space in an office. That is more appropriate. Or buy a house in the country.

Clueless stuff altogether.

Are you writing this from your manor or are you not in the same country a the rest of us.

Are you aware of the cost of rent in 2018 in Ireland?

Trust me I dont want to be here either and im saving every penny to get out.

A Shaved Duck?

Op has to close his windows for a couple of calls a day due to childrens happiness and laughter so sends an anonymous email complaining to a third party which results in the kids being kept indoors.

Well done OP you really stuck it to the man :eek: