Creche in Estate using communal area as play area

Jack Moore

thomas 123 wrote: »

My biggest issues are:

Other peoples kids - they have no regard for privacy and sticking to their own patch, it sometimes feels like they are sent to congregate around my block as its in the center of the development.

Lack of private garden - Sometimes you just want to sit outside without others looking at you.

Visits from Charity people, religious people and TV license inspectors - it really feels like they come visit me more here, so much so that i installed a door bell with a camera, that has seemed to deter most of them.

Walking past other peoples doors when they are outside - this again relates to privacy , its annoying having to greet people constantly.

Like others said I think its a cultural thing, If none of the above bother you then maybe its for you!

One question though is the difference really that much these days in terms of price?

You hate kids near your home in general and people saying hello to you when you walk around?

I think the crèche thing is simply part of a bigger issue tbh.

thomas 123 wrote: »

Same issue in an estate with mixed accommodation Townhouse / detached houses.

I have an area with trees outside my Townhouse where the creche(Which is also in the estate) brings the toddlers up to play around(Loudly). Its also the hangout for the teens at night and 5-12 year olds during the day. All 5m away from my office/bedroom windows.

One time 3 kids used my gable wall to play hurling...

I knocked on the window before and the 3 kids looked back up at me as if to say who do you think you are.

I work from home so probably take issue with this more than most people.

All in all boo common areas and boo parents who have no respect for others privacy. I feel your pain OP.

Mrs OBumble

How do we know that the creche is a for-profit business, and not in some kind of community ownership or non-profit basis? The only people who might know are members of the management company - which is the OP, as a tenant not an owner, is no.

It's likely that the insurance is a red-herring. A creche that runs regular excursions will have insurance to cover them.

thomas 123

Jack Moore wrote: »

You hate kids near your home in general and people saying hello to you when you walk around?

I think the crèche thing is simply part of a bigger issue tbh.

It's all relitive mate. I'm from the country hence the comment about constantly meeting and greeting. Thanks for feeling the need to pull that up to further demonise me.

thomas 123

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How do we know that the creche is a for-profit business, and not in some kind of community ownership or non-profit basis? The only people who might know are members of the management company - which is the OP, as a tenant not an owner, is no.

It's likely that the insurance is a red-herring. A creche that runs regular excursions will have insurance to cover them.

I think we are all reading far too deep into this.

Gatling

thomas 123 wrote: »

- I'll just be happy if I can work/relax in a normal level of noise.

Again as i said earlier it's highly unlikely anything will change ,you can't regulate kids noise outdoors in this current climate ,
The crèche as far as I know won't be restricted using the common space ,there not running a business on the common space they are simply accessing the common space for kids to get fresh air ,

the_syco

thomas 123 wrote: »

Thanks.

Did you not see my sentence about it not being the closest green area too them?

thomas 123 wrote: »

To add they of course also have their own play area to the rear of the creche.

I'm wondering thaty they have been asked/told not to use the greens closer to the creche, as well as within the creche itself?, by other people complaining?

thomas 123

Gatling wrote: »

Again as i said earlier it's highly unlikely anything will change ,you can't regulate kids noise outdoors in this current climate ,
The crèche as far as I know won't be restricted using the common space ,there not running a business on the common space they are simply accessing the common space for kids to get fresh air ,

That's true, nor would I want that to be the case. However as I've said their are plenty of greens in the estate., they have their own playground move them around a bit.

I'm not happy with the situation(as Ben above kindly dig out) but I didn't set out to lock the kids up, I set out to find out the best way to approach the issue.

Grudaire

thomas 123 wrote: »

That's true, nor would I want that to be the case. However as I've said their are plenty of greens in the estate., they have their own playground move them around a bit.

I'm not happy with the situation(as Ben above kindly dig out) but I didn't set out to lock the kids up, I set out to find out the best way to approach the issue.

Sounds like the definition of a NIMBY :pac:

So you don't support your neighbours in liberating themselves from noisy disturbing people near their houses* - just your own?


*Any similarities with our Orange neighbours is purely coincidental

thomas 123

Grudaire wrote: »

Sounds like the definition of a NIMBY :pac:

So you don't support your neighbours in liberating themselves from noisy disturbing people near their houses* - just your own?


*Any similarities with our Orange neighbours is purely coincidental

You guys love to pick ⛏.

Would saying I get an disproportionate amount of visits from the gathering make it better.

You know what I mean.

Terrible use of there/their from me also.

Graham

Mod Note

folks, please leave out the snarky comments/sly-digs/amateur-psychology/grammar-police.

Akrasia

You said they go to your green because there are trees around it. They probably go there because there is shelter from the sun. Their own outdoor area might not have any grass or shelter so it may be unsuitable for them to play in this run of especially hot weather

You really need to drop it. Children are part of your community. They have a right to enjoy the outdoor communal space as much as anyone. You have a solution to the noise, close the window when you're on a call.

listermint

What's stopping you using your actually work office. You can then get back to being non snarky .

Usually if people have a problem with a location they move somewhere more accomodating to their issues .

I.e silence

thomas 123

listermint wrote: »

What's stopping you using your actually work office. You can then get back to being non snarky .

Usually if people have a problem with a location they move somewhere more accomodating to their issues .

I.e silence

HQ is 150 miles away unfortunately. I have been hunting for a house for quite awhile they just are not a availible or as said earlier are crazy expensive.

listermint

thomas 123 wrote: »

HQ is 150 miles away unfortunately. I have been hunting for a house for quite awhile they just are not a availible or as said earlier are crazy expensive.

Ok second option.

Noise cancelling headphones and some smooth smooth jazz

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Ok second option.

Noise cancelling headphones and some smooth smooth jazz

Or the kids could be kept to the creche that they should be in.

irishgrover

Kudos to Thomas 123 for dealing with the some genuinely face palm ffs responses from the subset of loons on this thread.... you have much more patience than me....

Gatling

Paige Huge Anchor wrote: »

Or the kids could be kept to the cre that they should be in.

They are entitled to use the space ,it's a public space , what about kids living on the street keep them locked in ?

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

what about kids living on the street keep them locked in ?

Mod Note

Enough with the hysterics.

mrslancaster

As others have said it is a public area. On the other hand, the planning permission for the creche would usually need to include a safe secure outdoor space attached to the premises.
Using an open park area might be considered an outing by the creche insurance company and the creche operator would need specific permission from parents for outings. Not sure about the child/staff ratios for outings but it may be higher than the ratio indoors or on the creche premises.
A qualified first aid staff member with a first aid box is needed too.
OP, maybe check the planning.

luap_42

Gatling wrote: »

They are entitled to use the space ,it's a public space , what about kids living on the street keep them locked in ?

Wrong. It is a public space with regard to residents and visitors to the estate. It is not a public space with respect to conducting any business in a communal area. A business needs planning permission to operate in the first place, and the area of use is strictly defined. The business liability insurance covering the creche will not apply outside of the creche's own grounds. The liability insurance of the management company will NOT cover a business.

A creche is a business, whether it is for profit, or not. There IS a duty of care for children being taken care of by ANY business. The creche must have Garda vetting, liability insurance, and appropriate childcare training of all staff. The business liability insurance for a creche will not cover any activity outside of the creche's own grounds. They have their own OUTDOOR playground area within the curtilage of the creche. This is certainly a requirement of the planning permission for the creche.

The OP is on solid ground with his annoyance and complaint. The children should not be out and about the estate at all. This does not happen in any creche I know about, or have ever come across. Children are normally strictly kept within the grounds of the creche itself. The parents will be the first to complain, believe me. The creche will be in breach of planning that it has to operate, and can be fined or even closed by the local authority for that breach. Also the staff are putting the management company at risk of being liable for claims for any accident or worse outside the grounds of the creche.

The management company will put a stop to it rather than risk a claim. The parents will become aware of the situation, and it will only take a single complaint.

To the high horse brigade on here, most people do not have a choice about where they live, work etc. You can live out the country, like I do, and STILL have issues with a business breaking the rules and really messing up the quality of life of ALL the residential neighbours. I have been in that situation, not a creche, but worse. 50 cars an hour on a small cul-de-sac of seven houses, blocking drives, turning our country idyll into urban hell. We had to go to ABP twice to get the business removed, it took four years, but we got our peace back and we have been completely vindicated. We regret nothing.

I support the OP 100%. Those opposing speak from NO experience of any remotely similar situation.

embraer170

I lived in Spain for a while and two local creches used our apartment complex communal play area twice daily. IIt was just something one got used to.

In a Germany village I know, the creche uses both its own playground and two other playgrounds around (to get the kids to see something else). It is just the norm.

No worries about insurance claims, dog poo, infections, and certainly fewer cranky locals who want kids locked up in some kind of prison.

mrslancaster

embraer170 wrote: »

I lived in Spain for a while and two local creches used our apartment complex communal play area twice daily. IIt was just something one got used to.

In a Germany village I know, the creche uses both its own playground and two other playgrounds around (to get the kids to see something else). It is just the norm.

No worries about insurance claims, dog poo, infections, and certainly fewer cranky locals who want kids locked up in some kind of prison.

All well and good until a child in a park has an accident, is frightened by a dog, runs away from the group thereby endangering the other children as a staff member has to catch them - it happens...
Have you experience of 15/20 preschoolers in an open space with 2/3 staff?
It's a risky situation and i would not want my child in that creche, it's irresponsible of the creche operator to allow that every day.

endacl

listermint wrote: »

Well it makes your point mute.

More of a damp squid, surely?

anewme

endacl wrote: »

More of a damp squid, surely?

Few people here really upsetting the apple tart.

endacl

anewme wrote: »

Few people here really upsetting the apple tart.

I'm on tender hooks, waiting for these posts to be nipped in the butt.

Better battle down the hatches!

fallen01angel

I'll admit I know nothing about the legality of what the creche is doing,but it definitely does seem a bit odd to me!!!!OP I think you're 100% right to take the action you did.
To all the posters who think he's some kind of monster for what he's done just imagine the absolute racket that up to 20 young children make when let loose to play.......5 days a week!!!Would ye think he'd have a right to object if a bunch of residents decide to practice death metal in the common ground or if a resident started tinkering with some engines in the same area??

alias no.9

anewme wrote: »

Few people here really upsetting the apple tart.

All smokes and daggers innit...

Back on topic

Resident kids and their guests in the communal spaces of a private development is fine and dandy. If the creche is in the development and has a lease that covers the use of common areas, again all fine and dandy. A business using open space in a private development in a manner not covered by a lease or contract with the management company is taking the piss.

It's funny how quickly people are telling the OP to move somewhere else, if the open space provision for the creche is inadequate, perhaps it's time they found an
suitable premises. The response the OP got from the managing agent suggests there is not an agreement in place for the creche to use the common areas, it's not even clear if the creche is part of the development.

There's not enough factual information to come down on one side or the other, there's a possibility the creche are being massively negligent and there's also the possibility that the OP is going to just have to suck it up if they have the relevant lease or contract and of course insurance.

James Bond Junior

Something else to consider. In schools, under GDPR regulations, an explicit permission slip is needed for every trip outside the school gates, including a walk to the local park etc. A blanket permission when they enter in infants doesn't cover it anymore. If this is the case in a creche, and I would imagine so, it leads to more problems.

Gatling

luap_42 wrote: »

The OP is on solid ground with his annoyance and complaint. The children should not be out and about the estate at all. This does not happen in any creche I know about, or have ever come across. Children are normally strictly kept within the grounds of the creche

Not true at all ,

There is multiple such child care facilities operating in estates and housing complexes around the country who do use communal areas as they don't have access to a garden or outdoor play area it's actually getting more common ,

Like any child care center staff are trained and vetted not that this has anything to do with the topic at hand ,
And as long as they follow proceedures and stay within adult /child ration they can take kids out side,Staff are actually able to take a risk assessment before using an area or park for outdoor activities and can say this is ok or say no this won't work from a safety issue.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

You said they go to your green because there are trees around it. They probably go there because there is shelter from the sun. Their own outdoor area might not have any grass or shelter so it may be unsuitable for them to play in this run of especially hot weather

You really need to drop it. Children are part of your community. They have a right to enjoy the outdoor communal space as much as anyone. You have a solution to the noise, close the window when you're on a call.

Not his problem if their area unsuitable for purpose.